TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

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crickey
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TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#1 Post by crickey » December 7th, 2018, 7:49 am

I had these two wines with dinner last night. I was surprised that the group liked the Paris Cornas; it was more rustic and funky than I was expecting (people often refer to it as glossy or modern), but people liked it. The Pahlmeyer was terrific and a definite hit with the group.
  • 1996 Pahlmeyer Proprietary Red - USA, California, Napa Valley (12/7/2018)
    Wonderful nose of black fruit and cedar. Black current, lots of savory elements and spice. Medium-bodied, a little soft, but firm enough to carry through to a long finish. Terrific balance overall and a very nice drink. Just a hair behind the 1995 I had a few months back, but an excellent California Bordeaux blend. (93 pts.)
  • 2014 Domaine Vincent Paris Cornas Granit 60 - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Cornas (12/7/2018)
    My immediate impressions were a strong funk and olive nose. With air, black fruit emerged and the funk subsided, but the olive was ever-present, almost with a briny overtone. A little rustic, but the acidity kept things lively and in balance and there was firm tannic grip. More typical of N. Rhone than I was expecting and overall very good. (91 pts.)
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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#2 Post by G. Shields » December 7th, 2018, 8:02 am

crickey wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 7:49 am
  • 2014 Domaine Vincent Paris Cornas Granit 60 - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Cornas (12/7/2018)
    My immediate impressions were a strong funk and olive nose. With air, black fruit emerged and the funk subsided, but the olive was ever-present, almost with a briny overtone. A little rustic, but the acidity kept things lively and in balance and there was firm tannic grip. More typical of N. Rhone than I was expecting and overall very good. (91 pts.)
Had this a little more than a year ago and loved it. It was super dense, velvety and yet for me also very N. Rhone, lots of bacon etc... I don't think i found it rustic though, just massive and with great dark fruit. How much air did you give it? I decanted for a full hour before drinking. Maybe some of that funk was just temporary reduction?
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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#3 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » December 7th, 2018, 8:04 am

I’d consider the Paris more modern than rustic.

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#4 Post by crickey » December 7th, 2018, 10:57 am

G. Shields wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 8:02 am
Had this a little more than a year ago and loved it. It was super dense, velvety and yet for me also very N. Rhone, lots of bacon etc... I don't think i found it rustic though, just massive and with great dark fruit. How much air did you give it? I decanted for a full hour before drinking. Maybe some of that funk was just temporary reduction?
I ordered it off the menu at a restaurant, so it was opened at the table. In hindsight, it would have been better to have decanted it, even a little, as it got better as it opened. Some of the funk was probably reduction, as you suggest, as it blew off relatively quickly; some of it was just the wine, I think.
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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#5 Post by crickey » December 7th, 2018, 11:04 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 8:04 am
I’d consider the Paris more modern than rustic.
Some of that is a matter of relativity of scales and expectations. Maybe in the context of Cornas, this is more modern and less rustic than, say, Levet; next to the Pahlmeyer, it was more rustic and in any case less "modern," meaning glossy, than I was expecting. I ordered for a group, and fruitier and less funky is usually a safer bet in a crowd, so when I ordered it, I was expecting clean and fruity. When I received the first pour for examination, it was anything but, so I was worried the rest of the group wouldn't like it. Fortunately, everyone liked it quite a bit, and I was pleased the group got to experience at least something of a true N. Rhone wine.
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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#6 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 7th, 2018, 11:09 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 8:04 am
I’d consider the Paris more modern than rustic.
I’ve not had the 2014 Paris 30 or 60, but that has always been my assessment as well. I’m not a fan. The Geynale is more what I like in a Cornas, but the 2015 is hugely-scaled. The Geynale is not de-stemmed where in the past the 30 and 60 were (perhaps partly in the 60, my memory is slipping).

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#7 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » December 7th, 2018, 11:28 am

I like all of the Paris wines, but find the 60 hard to justify when it’s usually just a few $ less than the Geynale.

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#8 Post by crickey » December 7th, 2018, 11:45 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 11:09 am
I’ve not had the 2014 Paris 30 or 60, but that has always been my assessment as well. I’m not a fan. The Geynale is more what I like in a Cornas, but the 2015 is hugely-scaled. The Geynale is not de-stemmed where in the past the 30 and 60 were (perhaps partly in the 60, my memory is slipping).
The 60 is 33% whole cluster fermentation, according to the importer, at least for the 2016.
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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#9 Post by Josh Grossman » December 7th, 2018, 11:55 am

From JLL:

60: "from Patou (1948), Les Mazards (1910-20s), Sauman (1991), 30-70% destemmed, 1 week cool maceration, then 2-3 week vinification, wild yeasts, pumping overs, some cap punching, aged 2-10 year 225-litre oak casks 12-14 months, casks assembled 4 weeks before bottling, fined, unfiltered, first wine 2000, 4,400-6,000 b"

Geynal: "85% from the top of La Genale, plus part of the lower end, includes plenty of 1910 Syrah, 10-15% Tézier (1992), 80-85% whole bunch fermentation, 1 week cool maceration, 4 week vinification, wild yeasts, pumping overs, cap punching, aged 2-10 year oak casks 12-14 months, casks assembled 4 weeks before bottling, fined, unfiltered, 20% bottled 14 months after harvest, 80% bottled 17-18 months after harvest, 4,000-6,000 b"

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#10 Post by Josh Grossman » December 7th, 2018, 12:12 pm

What in the making of the Geynale would make it any more modern than any other producer? It's mostly whole bunch, wild yeast, and used oak casks (no new wood). The only way I can see making it more rustic is brettanomyces, or bacteria from not doing cap punching and pump overs? Is it just that they harvest a riper grape to start with? They always come in around 14% abv though--so it's not any more alcohol than others, which would make me believe the grapes are about the same too. I have a feeling too many people conflate the Granit 30 with his other wines. I believe those 1910 vines make some of the best juice in Cornas and am happy if people keep saying it's modern and the prices stay the same.

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#11 Post by Greg K » December 7th, 2018, 12:16 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:12 pm
What in the making of the Geynale would make it any more modern than any other producer? It's mostly whole bunch, wild yeast, and used oak casks (no new wood). The only way I can see making it more rustic is brettanomyces, or bacteria from not doing cap punching and pump overs? Is it just that they harvest a riper grape to start with? They always come in around 14% abv though--so it's not any more alcohol than others, which would make me believe the grapes are about the same too. I have a feeling too many people conflate the Granit 30 with his other wines. I believe those 1910 vines make some of the best juice in Cornas and am happy if people keep saying it's modern and the prices stay the same.
I'm not sure I find the Geynale "modern" in style, but I don't think it's at the quality of my favorite Cornas producers. I want to like it more given the terroir and the age of the vines, but to me, for instance, it has neither the force of Allemand nor the elegance of Clape.
YMMV, of course. I personally prefer Balthazar's Chaillot.
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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#12 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » December 7th, 2018, 12:22 pm

I wish I'd went longer on the 15 Geynale from HDH; they were selling it at $44 a btl; I think I only grabbed 3.

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#13 Post by Josh Grossman » December 7th, 2018, 12:53 pm

Greg K wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:16 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:12 pm
What in the making of the Geynale would make it any more modern than any other producer? It's mostly whole bunch, wild yeast, and used oak casks (no new wood). The only way I can see making it more rustic is brettanomyces, or bacteria from not doing cap punching and pump overs? Is it just that they harvest a riper grape to start with? They always come in around 14% abv though--so it's not any more alcohol than others, which would make me believe the grapes are about the same too. I have a feeling too many people conflate the Granit 30 with his other wines. I believe those 1910 vines make some of the best juice in Cornas and am happy if people keep saying it's modern and the prices stay the same.
I'm not sure I find the Geynale "modern" in style, but I don't think it's at the quality of my favorite Cornas producers. I want to like it more given the terroir and the age of the vines, but to me, for instance, it has neither the force of Allemand nor the elegance of Clape.
YMMV, of course. I personally prefer Balthazar's Chaillot.
Balthazar's Cornas Chaillot is actually the N. Rhone that I have the most of in my cellar. That said, it is made almost identical as the Geynale. The only difference I see is Balthazar uses demi-muids instead of used casks and just does cap punching instead of cap punching and pour overs? I'm just glad I can still afford either.

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#14 Post by G. Shields » December 7th, 2018, 1:28 pm

I do think we might have a mild case of some geeks splitting hairs here! There really isn’t much difference between the 60 and the geynale in vinification, apart from maybe 30-50% extra whole cluster. There is still some old vine sap in the 60 and no new oak...
Ok, might not be at the quality of the pinnacle of cornas, but the price is very good for the quality of the wine compared to say many Cote rôtie and you get a super bottle. At this stage we are at the finer nuances of stylistic difference but nowhere near a spoofilated bordeaux vs traditional or modern barrique vs Old school botti Barolo in terms of difference
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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#15 Post by Greg K » December 7th, 2018, 1:46 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:53 pm
Balthazar's Cornas Chaillot is actually the N. Rhone that I have the most of in my cellar. That said, it is made almost identical as the Geynale. The only difference I see is Balthazar uses demi-muids instead of used casks and just does cap punching instead of cap punching and pour overs? I'm just glad I can still afford either.
I also buy a lot of the Balthazar Chaillot. I like it a lot more than the Geynale, but then tastes are personal, eh?

I definitely don't think of Paris as spoofilated or modern, it just doesn't hit the sweet spot for me. Vive la difference! (Especially at relatively affordable prices! [cheers.gif] .)
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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#16 Post by Viet Ly » December 7th, 2018, 1:52 pm

G. Shields wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 8:02 am
crickey wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 7:49 am
  • 2014 Domaine Vincent Paris Cornas Granit 60 - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Cornas (12/7/2018)
    My immediate impressions were a strong funk and olive nose. With air, black fruit emerged and the funk subsided, but the olive was ever-present, almost with a briny overtone. A little rustic, but the acidity kept things lively and in balance and there was firm tannic grip. More typical of N. Rhone than I was expecting and overall very good. (91 pts.)
Had this a little more than a year ago and loved it. It was super dense, velvety and yet for me also very N. Rhone, lots of bacon etc... I don't think i found it rustic though, just massive and with great dark fruit. How much air did you give it? I decanted for a full hour before drinking. Maybe some of that funk was just temporary reduction?
I had a taste of this about a year ago and your description matches my memories of the wine [cheers.gif]

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#17 Post by Lee Barnard » December 7th, 2018, 2:04 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 11:09 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 8:04 am
I’d consider the Paris more modern than rustic.
I’ve not had the 2014 Paris 30 or 60, but that has always been my assessment as well. I’m not a fan. The Geynale is more what I like in a Cornas, but the 2015 is hugely-scaled. The Geynale is not de-stemmed where in the past the 30 and 60 were (perhaps partly in the 60, my memory is slipping).
Had the 2014 Paris 30 recently. Think the best way to describe is "glossy". Not a buyer personally due to that, but did not find it overbearingly modern/spoofy (i.e., it still tasted like a N. Rhone syrah).

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#18 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » December 7th, 2018, 2:21 pm

I really like the whole Paris line; I just don’t know it’s what I’d reach for if I wanted something rustic.

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#19 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 7th, 2018, 2:36 pm

Greg K wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 1:46 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 12:53 pm
Balthazar's Cornas Chaillot is actually the N. Rhone that I have the most of in my cellar. That said, it is made almost identical as the Geynale. The only difference I see is Balthazar uses demi-muids instead of used casks and just does cap punching instead of cap punching and pour overs? I'm just glad I can still afford either.
I also buy a lot of the Balthazar Chaillot. I like it a lot more than the Geynale, but then tastes are personal, eh?

I definitely don't think of Paris as spoofilated or modern, it just doesn't hit the sweet spot for me. Vive la difference! (Especially at relatively affordable prices! [cheers.gif] .)
I hope my post was clear that i think there is a stylistic difference between the 30 and 60, and the Geynale. The latter is the only bottling that I but from Paris.

@GregK - Funny sidenote, I see Clape as the power, not elegant at all, and Allemand the more elegant of the Cornas wines.

"Alfert was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#20 Post by Greg K » December 7th, 2018, 2:55 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:36 pm
@GregK - Funny sidenote, I see Clape as the power, not elegant at all, and Allemand the more elegant of the Cornas wines.
That's interesting! To me Clape tends to be leaner and more structured while Allemand brings the power. Maybe I've just been drinking the solar vintages [snort.gif]
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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#21 Post by Jayson Cohen » December 7th, 2018, 5:17 pm

Greg K wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:55 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:36 pm
@GregK - Funny sidenote, I see Clape as the power, not elegant at all, and Allemand the more elegant of the Cornas wines.
That's interesting! To me Clape tends to be leaner and more structured while Allemand brings the power. Maybe I've just been drinking the solar vintages [snort.gif]
You are both wrong. [cheers.gif] Verset was power. And intense fruit. And somehow elegant too. Neither Allemand nor Clape generally have that intensity and power. More elegant. But more drive / intensity in Allemand compared to Clape for me. The acid structure actually helps there and for me the oomph of Allemand compared to Clape is apparent in a side by side.

But we are sort of splitting hairs between two fine houses.

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#22 Post by Jayson Cohen » December 7th, 2018, 5:19 pm

Also I remain unconvinced by Paris and Balthazar so far, though admittedly deprived of the Balthazar Chaillots to date.

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#23 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 7th, 2018, 5:45 pm

Clape is power. At least that’s my take.

So where do you put Juge? I call it elegant rusticity, but that’s an oxymoron that works for me.

"Alfert was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#24 Post by Jayson Cohen » December 7th, 2018, 5:55 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:45 pm
Clape is power. At least that’s my take.

So where do you put Juge? I call it elegant rusticity, but that’s an oxymoron that works for me.
Juge has its own category. Proximo a mi corazon. The Clos St Denis of Cornas?

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Re: TNs: Vincent Paris, Pahlmeyer

#25 Post by Greg K » December 8th, 2018, 2:47 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:17 pm
Greg K wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:55 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 2:36 pm
@GregK - Funny sidenote, I see Clape as the power, not elegant at all, and Allemand the more elegant of the Cornas wines.
That's interesting! To me Clape tends to be leaner and more structured while Allemand brings the power. Maybe I've just been drinking the solar vintages [snort.gif]
You are both wrong. [cheers.gif] Verset was power. And intense fruit. And somehow elegant too. Neither Allemand nor Clape generally have that intensity and power. More elegant. But more drive / intensity in Allemand compared to Clape for me. The acid structure actually helps there and for me the oomph of Allemand compared to Clape is apparent in a side by side.

But we are sort of splitting hairs between two fine houses.
I agree, when drunk together, the Allemand is a more powerful wine while Clape is more structured. That's why I think of them that way.

And I'm happy to agree with you about Verset - you should organize a Verset dinner and invite us so that we can confirm that statement. champagne.gif
Greg Kahn

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