Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

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Jonathan Loesberg
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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#101 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » December 4th, 2018, 8:43 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 8:29 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 6:44 am
I expect Jeff meant something like, in current vintages, taken generally, the second wines of all first growths are better than the first wine of those first growths, taken generally, many years ago.
This seems disrespectful to Jeff, as it disregards the actual words he wrote. "In every case" is a phrase composed of three common English words that have a fixed and certain meaning, and in this instance, the key word is "every." The word "every" is not consistent with your very different statement of the issue, which talks about wines and vintages "taken generally." In fact, the ideas "every" and "taken generally" communicate are not merely different; in this context they are antithetical and mutually exclusive.

Jeff's statement was over-broad as Howard pointed out and as Jeff now concedes. Jeff's feelings about the wines and vintages "taken generally" are now clear, and it seems hard to argue with them.

You are welcome; It's been my pleasure to clarify what you all meant.

Yours,

The Local Pedant.
First time I've ever heard misinterpretation described as disrespectful, especially when its intent was to make the best case for the sentence in question. Given Jeff's response, I think your rereading to be correct and my attempt to give his statement a better glossing to be incorrect. I have to point out, though, that nothing in the phrase, "in every case," demands that it modify vintages rather than first growths, which is how I read the sentence. Even claiming that such a construction makes the phrase modify a phrase other than the one nearest it doesn't really, given the shortness of the sentence, make it dangling. I maintain my general claim in that post, which I think Jeff's response, in his granting a case without granting the general claim, bears out.

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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#102 Post by G. Bienstock » December 4th, 2018, 11:28 am

Has anybody tasted a good bottle of 70 Lafite lately? A bottle last year served blind did not suck!
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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#103 Post by Oliver V » December 4th, 2018, 1:01 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 5:18 am
The best vintages between 1961 and 1982 were 1966 and 1970, very excellent vintages but not consistently great.
I agree with you that in 1970 there were some superb wines- Latour, Figeac & Giscours being my favorites. But I think "very excellent" is a stretch. Yes, there were financial struggles which undoubtedly contributed to the unevenness of the vintage, but there are plenty of other post war years which were more consistent despite much the same financial challenges. Fundamentally I think it is an average vintage with a handful of exceptional wines.

I'd also strongly disagree that somebody who challenges the quality of the 1960s and 1970s generally in Bordeaux must only have a "theoretical" knowledge of the wines. For every great wine I've had from those decades there have been two, or even three, which have been disappointments. The weaknesses of some vintages are a little overstated, but so are the greatness of others, IMO.
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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#104 Post by Mark Golodetz » December 4th, 2018, 1:27 pm

Robert
You should realize that Rolland puts as much time or as little time as the winemaker asks for. For instance, one of my favorite properties in Saint Emilion is Chateau Corbin. I love the wines, and they are seriously traditional, so I was very surprised to hear she used Rolland. The winemaker/owner, Annabelle Cruse Bardinet saw the look of shock and told me that it wasn’t Rolland himself but one of his employees and only for help in the vineyards.
Apparently this is normal, and Rolland does a lot of this kind of consulting. It really depends how much influence he has; if he controls the time of picking, then you have problems.
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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#105 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 4th, 2018, 1:34 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 1:27 pm
Robert
You should realize that Rolland puts as much time or as little time as the winemaker asks for. For instance, one of my favorite properties in Saint Emilion is Chateau Corbin. I love the wines, and they are seriously traditional, so I was very surprised to hear she used Rolland. The winemaker/owner, Annabelle Cruse Bardinet saw the look of shock and told me that it wasn’t Rolland himself but one of his employees and only for help in the vineyards.
Apparently this is normal, and Rolland does a lot of this kind of consulting. It really depends how much influence he has; if he controls the time of picking, then you have problems.
I do realize that very well; in fact, you have said it more than once (and I do listen - you have far greater depth of experience with Bordeaux than I do). I have had enough Rolland wines, however, to know that I am not a fan of most of what he touches, so if I see his name associated with any wine, I avoid it. Same with Cambie in Southern Rhone. There are too many wines that I know I love, so why risk throwing away money. And yes, I have had Rolland wines that I have liked as well. I even posted a recent note on one!

PS. I much prefer Corbin Michotte to Corbin. Leve does not like it. [wow.gif] [cheers.gif]

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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#106 Post by lleichtman » December 4th, 2018, 2:38 pm

G. Bienstock wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 11:28 am
Has anybody tasted a good bottle of 70 Lafite lately? A bottle last year served blind did not suck!
Had the 1970 Lafite in 2015. Didn't suck but it was only an average wine to me. Everyone else was oohing and aahing but I thought it to be meh. No comparison with '82 or '89 which were much better wines. I have not tasted much past 1995 as most of my friends hold on for more than 20 years before drinking so I have little comparison for first growths from newer vintages. Did have a few 2000 and 2005 and they were stunning. This discussion is interesting.
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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#107 Post by R Greene » December 4th, 2018, 7:17 pm

G. Bienstock wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 11:28 am
Has anybody tasted a good bottle of 70 Lafite lately? A bottle last year served blind did not suck!
Yes, have tasted two bottles fairly recently. Both were very enjoyable, though a lighter and less concentrated style of Lafite. I can see how a lot of people don't like the 70 Lafite, but it's still providing plenty of enjoyment for me.
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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#108 Post by Mark Golodetz » December 4th, 2018, 8:48 pm

R Greene wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 7:17 pm
G. Bienstock wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 11:28 am
Has anybody tasted a good bottle of 70 Lafite lately? A bottle last year served blind did not suck!
Yes, have tasted two bottles fairly recently. Both were very enjoyable, though a lighter and less concentrated style of Lafite. I can see how a lot of people don't like the 70 Lafite, but it's still providing plenty of enjoyment for me.
Until 1975 Lafite bottled by the barrel, so little wonder that the wines were inconsistent before that.
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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#109 Post by Russell Faulkner » December 4th, 2018, 9:31 pm

Can you expand on that Mark? Presumably already blended?

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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#110 Post by Mark Golodetz » December 5th, 2018, 1:47 am

No. Literally the wine was never assembled, and it was bottled from its individual barrel. The practice was stopped in or around 1975 when Eric de Rothschild took over.
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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#111 Post by Russell Faulkner » December 5th, 2018, 1:53 am

So some barrels were all Cab S, Merlot, Cab F...

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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#112 Post by Mark Golodetz » December 5th, 2018, 4:49 am

Sorry that is confusing. No, did an early blend apparently.

I have also found that large format Lafites tend to be from better barrels. Very anecdotal of course, since I have experienced only 3 vintages, but there was a noticeable difference between fifths and magnums in 1966 and 1970, and an an Imperial and fifth from 1975.
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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#113 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » December 5th, 2018, 6:58 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 1:34 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 1:27 pm
Robert
You should realize that Rolland puts as much time or as little time as the winemaker asks for. For instance, one of my favorite properties in Saint Emilion is Chateau Corbin. I love the wines, and they are seriously traditional, so I was very surprised to hear she used Rolland. The winemaker/owner, Annabelle Cruse Bardinet saw the look of shock and told me that it wasn’t Rolland himself but one of his employees and only for help in the vineyards.
Apparently this is normal, and Rolland does a lot of this kind of consulting. It really depends how much influence he has; if he controls the time of picking, then you have problems.
I do realize that very well; in fact, you have said it more than once (and I do listen - you have far greater depth of experience with Bordeaux than I do). I have had enough Rolland wines, however, to know that I am not a fan of most of what he touches, so if I see his name associated with any wine, I avoid it. Same with Cambie in Southern Rhone. There are too many wines that I know I love, so why risk throwing away money. And yes, I have had Rolland wines that I have liked as well. I even posted a recent note on one!

PS. I much prefer Corbin Michotte to Corbin. Leve does not like it. [wow.gif] [cheers.gif]
I thought you didn't like any Southern Rhone anymore, so Cambie can't make much difference to you.

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Re: Are 2016 3rd growths as good as 1970 firsts ?

#114 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 5th, 2018, 7:23 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:58 am

I thought you didn't like any Southern Rhone anymore, so Cambie can't make much difference to you.
I still selectively buy some Southern Rhones, but much more circumspect about it. Funny that it used to be such a mainstay of my consumption. Just got in this week a mixed case of Beaucastel and its Coudoulet (the 2015 is a killer value), and another of Charvin CDP and its Cotes du Rhone as well (the CDR is a major contrast to the Coudoulet, former being my lean and taut, the latter being more ripe and fleshy, but both delicious), and then for my father over the holidays, the Cambied Vieux Donjon, he loves that stuff. I do find CDP great for the holidays.

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