Buying wine with bitcoin?

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Eric LeVine
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Buying wine with bitcoin?

#1 Post by Eric LeVine » November 28th, 2018, 12:16 pm

Serious question. Is anyone here buying wine with bitcoin?

I am working on a big currency overhaul for CellarTracker and debating whether to add this as a supported currency.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#2 Post by cjsavino » November 28th, 2018, 1:01 pm

Chris
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#3 Post by Todd F r e n c h » November 28th, 2018, 1:05 pm

Currency overhaul meaning allowing people to pay for the annual 'suggested' service with bitcoin, or adding purchasing options (freakin' cool, if so) on the site, including bitcoin/crypto currency as payment through CT?
Apparently I'm lazy, have a narrow agenda, and offer little in the way of content and substance (RMP) (and have a "penchant for gossip" -KBI)

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#4 Post by Mark Morrissette » November 28th, 2018, 1:05 pm

Hi Eric,
I am a huge CT fan, a technology investor, and have dabbled in bitcoin. But, at least for now, I would not consider using bitcoin for wine purchases--it is just to volatile to be a good store-of-value, which makes any purchases difficult.
I will be curious to know if any others (perhaps for international purchases?) have started using it.
Thanks for staying on the cutting edge!

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#5 Post by Eric LeVine » November 28th, 2018, 1:43 pm

Todd F r e n c h wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 1:05 pm
Currency overhaul meaning allowing people to pay for the annual 'suggested' service with bitcoin, or adding purchasing options (freakin' cool, if so) on the site, including bitcoin/crypto currency as payment through CT?
None of the above, although we did accept bitcoin payment by request for a while (until our payment provider decided to drop support).

Today the site lets you specify a locale that handles the default date and currency formatting: https://www.cellartracker.com/displayoptions.asp

When we launch these new features, we will do a number of things:
  • Decouple your default currency from your date and number formatting.
  • When adding a purchase to your cellar, allow you to track a specific currency. So for example, the vast bulk of my purchases are in US dollars, but over the years I have purchased plenty of wine in Euros, Swiss Francs, New Israeli Shekels and Canadian dollars. The system will allow me to track the native purchase price and currency.
  • Some views (e.g. individual bottles and your list of purchases) will show the native currency as well as the value converted to your default currency (in current exchange rates). Where we aggregate (e.g. the default cellar view shows your average purchase price) we will use the converted value to generate you personal aggregate.
  • Today the community average prices are only drawn from people using US dollars, but we are losing a lot of community data. Going forward, we will calculate the community price across all users.
  • And biggest of all for paying users outside of the US, they will soon get automatic cellar valuation based on auction and community data, just like US users. And in their default currency. Please see: https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... -valuation
So all of that to say, I am debating whether to add Bitcoin in the list of currencies that can be tracked. (It is a fun one, since it pushes the precision limits on the exchange rate math for some of the more undervalued currencies in the world. For example, 1 VEF is 0.000000001 BTC. So for those Venezuelan users buying wine in bitcoin, the exchange rate math is going to be a bit chunky.)
Last edited by Eric LeVine on November 28th, 2018, 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#6 Post by Mark Y » November 28th, 2018, 1:58 pm

bitcoin the coin itself or cryto currency in general?
No for me in both cases
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#7 Post by Eric LeVine » November 28th, 2018, 4:58 pm

Specifically people using XBT/BTC to buy real, physical wine. https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/co ... XBT&To=USD

So far I am not sensing a lot of demand here...
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#8 Post by Markus S » November 28th, 2018, 6:21 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 4:58 pm
So far I am not sensing a lot of demand here...
Perhaps the wine aficionados in North Korea might be interested? [wink.gif]
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#9 Post by paul hanna » November 28th, 2018, 7:05 pm

*Went to buy a bottle of RC advertised at 2 BTC, by the time I got to the end of the transaction, the price had changed to 4 BTC....

(*may not be a true story).

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#10 Post by R Roberts » November 28th, 2018, 7:25 pm

I dabbled in mining 6-7 years ago, its only really seemed to attract speculators since. You're a few years early for this, IMO.
Eric LeVine wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 1:43 pm
So for those Venezuelan users buying wine in bitcoin
LOL.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#11 Post by JohnP » November 28th, 2018, 8:12 pm

I encourage you to do it. I'd love to buy wine using my Litecoin.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#12 Post by Todd F r e n c h » November 28th, 2018, 9:22 pm

Mark Morrissette wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 1:05 pm
Hi Eric,
I am a huge CT fan, a technology investor, and have dabbled in bitcoin. But, at least for now, I would not consider using bitcoin for wine purchases--it is just to volatile to be a good store-of-value, which makes any purchases difficult.
This is a great answer, IMHO - would be so difficult to place a true 'value' on your purchases using a 'currency' that is so CRAZY in flux all the time.
Apparently I'm lazy, have a narrow agenda, and offer little in the way of content and substance (RMP) (and have a "penchant for gossip" -KBI)

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#13 Post by Eric LeVine » November 28th, 2018, 9:33 pm

Here is a retailer who takes bitcoin: https://dewinespot.co/collections/fruit ... mozartwine

And many more: https://spendabit.co/go?q=wine

You guys are missing the point of my question. Some people are buying wines with Bitcoin. They might want to track that. It is at some level just another currency albeit a weird one.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#14 Post by Al Osterheld » November 28th, 2018, 10:13 pm

If the retailers are mainly selling in a local currency, but accepting bitcoin (likely converted instantaneously to the local currency) it seems more sensible to use the local currency value that is undoubtedly known to the CT user. Don't see the benefit to listing the bitcoin value given that it's so volatile and not really a freely convertible currency.

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#15 Post by Otto Dobre » November 28th, 2018, 10:51 pm

Al Osterheld wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 10:13 pm
If the retailers are mainly selling in a local currency, but accepting bitcoin (likely converted instantaneously to the local currency) it seems more sensible to use the local currency value that is undoubtedly known to the CT user. Don't see the benefit to listing the bitcoin value given that it's so volatile and not really a freely convertible currency.

-Al
Eric, hard for me to find any usefulness in selling wines with such a volatile currency. If I was a business, I would try to minimize my exposure to risk, and that is using dollars, not bit coins. Why do you think there are Bordeaux futures, to minimize the risk.

Imagine you offer valuations of wine collections in bitcoins and the bitcoins collapses, does the value of that wine collectio really go down. I doubt it. But what if the bitcoin goes up? Will you be able to sell your collection at the much higher exchange rate? I seriously doubt it. In other words you would be offering an additional service with no practical benefit to your customer.

Think of the oil market. The US is fortunate that oil prices are in dollars and not euros. We are only exposed to oil price fluctuations, but no exchange rate fluctuations.

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#16 Post by Robert M yers » November 29th, 2018, 2:45 am

If anybody is actually buying wine with bitcoin I’m sure they know the conversion rate into their own currency, or at least know where to find it. I’m not sure why you would feel the need to program this into CT. If you want to do it because it’s “cool” and cutting edge then Ok, but I’m doubting anybody exclusively buys wine with bitcoin. Therefore why would they choose this over their normal local currency?

If you tell them their cellar is worth 6.376948 bitcoins today they are most certainly going to have to use a converter to see what that equals in local currency today or even this hour. It’s really creating an extra step for people, at least until bitcoin stabilizes (if ever). When you think I own bitcoin the first question in anybody’s mind is how much is it worth (in hard currency)

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#17 Post by JohnP » November 29th, 2018, 7:55 am

I highly doubt any retailer who accepts BTC will not have a program in place to immediately convert it to fiat. Therefore, eliminating the volatility.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#18 Post by julianseersmartin » November 29th, 2018, 9:15 am

I think it's also worth considering that the majority of people dealing in bitcoin regularly are doing so to launder money. They aren't the sort of people that are going to be recording their wine collection in an online database.

However, I still fall into the camp that it should be included. Every act of "normalisation" for cryptocurrency strengthens the argument for it, and it'll take apps like CT making the jump for it to become commonplace, and eventually stabilize the value. I for one believe in the positive impact it could have on society. Blockchain tech could do wonders for tracing provenance too, if someone puts the effort in to implement an easy to use system.

I think you should do it, Eric, and good on you for considering it.

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#19 Post by Eric LeVine » November 29th, 2018, 9:23 am

Al Osterheld wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 10:13 pm
If the retailers are mainly selling in a local currency, but accepting bitcoin (likely converted instantaneously to the local currency) it seems more sensible to use the local currency value that is undoubtedly known to the CT user.
That's a very fair and logical point. (And you are always fair and logical.)
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#20 Post by Eric LeVine » November 29th, 2018, 9:27 am

julianseersmartin wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 9:15 am
I think it's also worth considering that the majority of people dealing in bitcoin regularly are doing so to launder money. They aren't the sort of people that are going to be recording their wine collection in an online database.

However, I still fall into the camp that it should be included. Every act of "normalisation" for cryptocurrency strengthens the argument for it, and it'll take apps like CT making the jump for it to become commonplace, and eventually stabilize the value. I for one believe in the positive impact it could have on society. Blockchain tech could do wonders for tracing provenance too, if someone puts the effort in to implement an easy to use system.

I think you should do it, Eric, and good on you for considering it.
I am not trying to make any social statement. Rather, as I am contemplating feeds of exchange rates, BTC is in there. And when we release our upgrade, we will have the ability to support currencies regardless of your system locale and currency formatting. That said, others make the point that anyone purchasing in Bitcoin likely knows the exchange rate to another currency at that moment, and that is a much more "stable" value to determine what you "spent" on wine, especially given that we currently plan to only use the CURRENT exchange rate to aggregate.

I am leaning to not including it at the outset.

On another note, sigh, we gave in and added Blue and Blue - Sparkling to the list of wine types. Argh. (Still working on adding new icons.)

https://www.eater.com/wine/2017/8/25/16 ... ere-to-buy

Unlike Orange wines, these are not just white wines.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#21 Post by Al Osterheld » November 29th, 2018, 9:33 am

JohnP wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 7:55 am
I highly doubt any retailer who accepts BTC will not have a program in place to immediately convert it to fiat. Therefore, eliminating the volatility.
I didn't check all the examples Eric linked, but I suspect the vast majority of the retailers really aren't accepting BTC, but simply use a payment processor that accepts BTC (and retailer receives payment in local currency). Which is functionally equivalent to what you suggested.

-Al

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#22 Post by Louis d. » August 26th, 2019, 9:10 am

May I up this topic by introducing our company since it sticks to the original post:

BTC Wine is the first online fine wine merchant to accept Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash as payment.

https://www.btc-wine.com

BTC Wine, based in Bordeaux, France, proposes a range of the most prestigious wines in the world by the case.

Our fine wines are packed in original wooden cases and shipped throughout the world.

The mother Company, LASSERRE & PAPILLON, was the first Bordeaux Negociant (B2B) to accept Bitcoin as payment.
BTC Wine gives individual bitcoin holders (B2C), the possibility to spend / invest their Bitcoins in a tangible asset.

BTC stands for:
-By the case
-Business to consumer
-Bitcoin
BTC Wine

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#23 Post by Nathan Smyth » August 26th, 2019, 10:58 am

And so the plot thickens.

What is the true relationship between the FRP and the IMW?

Enquiring minds wanna know...

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#24 Post by Nicos Neocleous » August 26th, 2019, 12:10 pm

Not for me. Too much uncertainty.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#25 Post by Dale Williams » August 26th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Taking payment in Bitcoin is one thing.
But if it was being treated as a true currency (as opposed to a speculative investment, evasion scheme, or novelty) someone would price their wines in bitcoin. Not holding breath.

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#26 Post by Nathan Smyth » August 26th, 2019, 12:29 pm

You guys are missing the point.

When non-oxidized non-corked non-heat-damaged Keller G-Max surges to $25 Trillion per bottle, at the same time that the world's currencies are deflating to one-tenth of their previous valuations, you will finally understand why the FRP infiltrated & seized control of the IMW way back in the 1960s, as part of the broader MK-ULTRA initiative.

It's the Great Convergence.

Keller G-Max is the new currency.

And the Fed was there first.

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#27 Post by Subu Ramachandran » August 26th, 2019, 12:36 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 9:23 am
Al Osterheld wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 10:13 pm
If the retailers are mainly selling in a local currency, but accepting bitcoin (likely converted instantaneously to the local currency) it seems more sensible to use the local currency value that is undoubtedly known to the CT user.
That's a very fair and logical point. (And you are always fair and logical.)
Eric, a currency gains legal status only if one can pay taxes through it. That is the government accepts "the cryptocurrency" as means for citizens to pay dues. As Al pointed out, retailers or any other merchants will simply convert the the bitcoin to local currency. The brokers who are offering to transact via bitcoin also settle to local currency, after overlaying transaction fees.

The purpose of the exercise is to value the asset (wines in storage) against a benchmark (US dollars or Euros).

Bitcoin is not a benchmark. It is just a highly speculative tool. There is no value generation, only a transfer of wealth from one person to another.

One can make the case for valuing the asset against precious metals (far less volatile and have historically been a medium of exchange) or other financial assets (S&P 500).

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#28 Post by Jason T » August 26th, 2019, 2:19 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 1:43 pm

[*]When adding a purchase to your cellar, allow you to track a specific currency. So for example, the vast bulk of my purchases are in US dollars, but over the years I have purchased plenty of wine in Euros, Swiss Francs, New Israeli Shekels and Canadian dollars. The system will allow me to track the native purchase price and currency.
[*]Some views (e.g. individual bottles and your list of purchases) will show the native currency as well as the value converted to your default currency (in current exchange rates). Where we aggregate (e.g. the default cellar view shows your average purchase price) we will use the converted value to generate you personal aggregate.
[*]Today the community average prices are only drawn from people using US dollars, but we are losing a lot of community data. Going forward, we will calculate the community price across all users.
[*]And biggest of all for paying users outside of the US, they will soon get automatic cellar valuation based on auction and community data, just like US users. And in their default currency.
These in particular are really cool. Looking forward to them Eric!
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#29 Post by Eric LeVine » August 27th, 2019, 5:58 pm

Jason T wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 2:19 pm
Eric LeVine wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 1:43 pm

[*]When adding a purchase to your cellar, allow you to track a specific currency. So for example, the vast bulk of my purchases are in US dollars, but over the years I have purchased plenty of wine in Euros, Swiss Francs, New Israeli Shekels and Canadian dollars. The system will allow me to track the native purchase price and currency.
[*]Some views (e.g. individual bottles and your list of purchases) will show the native currency as well as the value converted to your default currency (in current exchange rates). Where we aggregate (e.g. the default cellar view shows your average purchase price) we will use the converted value to generate you personal aggregate.
[*]Today the community average prices are only drawn from people using US dollars, but we are losing a lot of community data. Going forward, we will calculate the community price across all users.
[*]And biggest of all for paying users outside of the US, they will soon get automatic cellar valuation based on auction and community data, just like US users. And in their default currency.
These in particular are really cool. Looking forward to them Eric!
Uhh, no need to look forward to them. We shipped these features last December! https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... cy-support
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#30 Post by Jason T » August 27th, 2019, 8:09 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 5:58 pm
Jason T wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 2:19 pm
Eric LeVine wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 1:43 pm

[*]When adding a purchase to your cellar, allow you to track a specific currency. So for example, the vast bulk of my purchases are in US dollars, but over the years I have purchased plenty of wine in Euros, Swiss Francs, New Israeli Shekels and Canadian dollars. The system will allow me to track the native purchase price and currency.
[*]Some views (e.g. individual bottles and your list of purchases) will show the native currency as well as the value converted to your default currency (in current exchange rates). Where we aggregate (e.g. the default cellar view shows your average purchase price) we will use the converted value to generate you personal aggregate.
[*]Today the community average prices are only drawn from people using US dollars, but we are losing a lot of community data. Going forward, we will calculate the community price across all users.
[*]And biggest of all for paying users outside of the US, they will soon get automatic cellar valuation based on auction and community data, just like US users. And in their default currency.
These in particular are really cool. Looking forward to them Eric!
Uhh, no need to look forward to them. We shipped these features last December! https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... cy-support
D’oh! I wondered. It felt like I’d been using them these last few months. Hah.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#31 Post by JonathanG » August 27th, 2019, 8:35 pm

I dont use bitcoin but I do like the average price feature. Which makes me wonder, if someone puts in EUR as their currency for a bottle when its 1.3 USD to EUR, and a year later it drops to 1.1 USD to 1 EUR, that makes the same bottle look more expensive in USD terms. Is the average price going to be converted to USD as of the date of entry or will it "float" with current FX rates?

The other interesting thing (which is off topic now) is whether most folks include sales tax on their "price paid". VAT can be in excess of 25% in Europe, that can skew prices too.
(sorry for going off topic!)
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#32 Post by James Billy » August 28th, 2019, 1:03 am

If one person buys a bottle ex-domaine for €10 and someone from a high imported alcohol tax country, say Brazil, pays the equivalent of four times that price, what is the average price? Does this figure mean anything in the real world for, say, someone in the States where, for example, the wine usually goes for the equivalent of €13.

The average price where you are buying is relevant, but how about tax? Duty (in countries like the UK)? Shipping costs?

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#33 Post by JohnP » August 28th, 2019, 8:37 am

Thanks for bumping this post. The crypto market has sure evolved since this post originated. It's not an if, but a when. I'm only speaking about Bitcoin, which in my opinion is the millennial form of digit gold or store of value. It's not a replacement of the dollar IMO. Within the next five years, I'm confident that almost every retailer will have the ability to accept BTC. Although, until the conversion process is implemented within major merchant processors (ApplePay, Stripe, Square, etc) the wine community will be hesitant. On that point, I'm quite surprised that no one has not jumped on-board yet. The PR and marketing potential would be HUGE (on all forms of media, not just wine) and I assume there would too be an increase in sales. I'm throwing it out there, but an ideal brand that blends well to the underdog would be Realm. I have a feeling some of their constituents would be adopters, including myself.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#34 Post by Eric LeVine » August 28th, 2019, 9:40 am

JonathanG wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 8:35 pm
I dont use bitcoin but I do like the average price feature. Which makes me wonder, if someone puts in EUR as their currency for a bottle when its 1.3 USD to EUR, and a year later it drops to 1.1 USD to 1 EUR, that makes the same bottle look more expensive in USD terms. Is the average price going to be converted to USD as of the date of entry or will it "float" with current FX rates?

The other interesting thing (which is off topic now) is whether most folks include sales tax on their "price paid". VAT can be in excess of 25% in Europe, that can skew prices too.
(sorry for going off topic!)
The price floats with exchange rates. Some people enter tax and shipping. Many do not. It is just an average. We also integrate worldwide auction averages.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#35 Post by Eric LeVine » August 28th, 2019, 9:43 am

James Billy wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 1:03 am
If one person buys a bottle ex-domaine for €10 and someone from a high imported alcohol tax country, say Brazil, pays the equivalent of four times that price, what is the average price? Does this figure mean anything in the real world for, say, someone in the States where, for example, the wine usually goes for the equivalent of €13.

The average price where you are buying is relevant, but how about tax? Duty (in countries like the UK)? Shipping costs?
This sort of stuff actually is discussed in our FAQ's:
https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... -purchases
https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... -valuation

It is just an average. People seem to be looking for some level or truth or higher meaning that doesn't exist. It is tool to help you value your collection and determine what you should insure it for.
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#36 Post by Dan Kravitz » August 28th, 2019, 4:27 pm

I still find this confusing.

The US$ is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government.
OK, faith in the US government varies, but there is apparently an international consensus that there is real value to the US$, and I can buy things with it almost anywhere.

The Venezuelan Bolivar is backed by the full faith and credit of the Venezuelan government.
There is apparently an international consensus that it's worthless, and nobody can buy anything with it, anywhere (including Venezuela).

Bitcoin is back by the full faith and credit of???
There is no international consensus.

There seems to be some consensus that Bitcoin is used to facilitate criminal activity far more often than national currencies.

A relatively large number of people (maybe 1/10th of 1% of humankind?) are certain that the emperor is sumptuously attired.

I see little if any downside on Eric including Bitcoin in his list of supported currencies, but I also see no upside whatsoever.

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#37 Post by James Billy » August 28th, 2019, 5:43 pm

Eric LeVine wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 9:43 am
James Billy wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 1:03 am
If one person buys a bottle ex-domaine for €10 and someone from a high imported alcohol tax country, say Brazil, pays the equivalent of four times that price, what is the average price? Does this figure mean anything in the real world for, say, someone in the States where, for example, the wine usually goes for the equivalent of €13.

The average price where you are buying is relevant, but how about tax? Duty (in countries like the UK)? Shipping costs?
This sort of stuff actually is discussed in our FAQ's:
https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... -purchases
https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... -valuation

It is just an average. People seem to be looking for some level or truth or higher meaning that doesn't exist. It is tool to help you value your collection and determine what you should insure it for.
Ouch!

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JohnP
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#38 Post by JohnP » August 28th, 2019, 5:59 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 4:27 pm
I still find this confusing.

The US$ is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government.
OK, faith in the US government varies, but there is apparently an international consensus that there is real value to the US$, and I can buy things with it almost anywhere.

The Venezuelan Bolivar is backed by the full faith and credit of the Venezuelan government.
There is apparently an international consensus that it's worthless, and nobody can buy anything with it, anywhere (including Venezuela).

Bitcoin is back by the full faith and credit of???
There is no international consensus.

There seems to be some consensus that Bitcoin is used to facilitate criminal activity far more often than national currencies.

A relatively large number of people (maybe 1/10th of 1% of humankind?) are certain that the emperor is sumptuously attired.

I see little if any downside on Eric including Bitcoin in his list of supported currencies, but I also see no upside whatsoever.

Dan Kravitz
What is gold backed by? Nothing, there is just a demand with relatively limited supply. Bitcoin is in essence thay digital form of gold. In modern times, such as now, the ability to store value, quickly move it, and have no direct correlation to markets, is why it has value. To you're point about criminal activity, I would lean toward substantially more criminal activity with cash and in time, paper fiat will disappear. On a blockhain, every transaction can be verified and therefore in time will be the most transparent tool for all data and transactions.
John Pollard

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Al Osterheld
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#39 Post by Al Osterheld » August 28th, 2019, 7:53 pm

I think it's difficult to buy wine with gold. It's a commodity, not a currency, and its value is not based on the ability to buy things with it.

-Al

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JohnP
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#40 Post by JohnP » August 28th, 2019, 9:32 pm

I agree with you that gold is not a currency, but a store of value, and buying wine with gold (in more stable economies) is uncommon. However, I would bet many wineries right now in Mendoza would be open for accepting gold/silver for their wine. However, since I'm in CA, moving my gold to the Southern Hemisphere is not really feasible. Unlike gold, bitcoin is digital and therefore not limited to the properties of gold- heavy, not easily divisible or transportable. Bitcoin can move instantaneously and is fractional. When the US market goes through the next recession, bitcoin may an alternative hedge in addition to gold. However, bitcoin can be used for goods and services 100x easier since most consumers shop online these days. In my opinion, it’s not a question of if, but when.
John Pollard

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Eric LeVine
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#41 Post by Eric LeVine » August 29th, 2019, 6:30 am

James Billy wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 5:43 pm
Eric LeVine wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 9:43 am
James Billy wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 1:03 am
If one person buys a bottle ex-domaine for €10 and someone from a high imported alcohol tax country, say Brazil, pays the equivalent of four times that price, what is the average price? Does this figure mean anything in the real world for, say, someone in the States where, for example, the wine usually goes for the equivalent of €13.

The average price where you are buying is relevant, but how about tax? Duty (in countries like the UK)? Shipping costs?
This sort of stuff actually is discussed in our FAQ's:
https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... -purchases
https://support.cellartracker.com/artic ... -valuation

It is just an average. People seem to be looking for some level or truth or higher meaning that doesn't exist. It is tool to help you value your collection and determine what you should insure it for.
Ouch!
Sorry to zing. What we see for many tens of thousands of paying customers on CellarTracker is that in aggregate the valuation data on CellarTracker is very helpful for them in terms of establishing a standard for insurance purposes. In general, there will always be variation. An insurer will pay replacement value is which often somewhat higher. If people go to sell wines from their collection, they will realize something somewhat lower. So as with everything your mileage may vary. Your cases are valid but also extreme edge cases that individuals can choose to adjust for. Are you actually using CellarTracker? I find no user who has ever registered a real name (a required albeit hidden field) of James Billy on CellarTracker.
-Eric LeVine (ITB)
It rhymes with wine...

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#42 Post by James Billy » August 29th, 2019, 6:48 pm

I'm not on cellartracker.

No criticism. Just an observation. I guess you can't cover every angle.

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#43 Post by T. Altmayer » August 29th, 2019, 8:07 pm

Isn’t selling wine using bitcoin simply a means to avoid paying VAT or sales/income tax?
Tom

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Al Osterheld
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#44 Post by Al Osterheld » August 29th, 2019, 8:28 pm

If you sell wine for hogs or gold, the various taxing entities still want their cut, BTC is no different.

If a licensed seller exchanges wine for BTC, they would be crazy to not pay those taxes. If a non-licensed seller exchanges wine for BTC, they have additional issues, but the taxing entities definitely will expect their cut.

I think the people advocating for BTC on this thread are mostly (maybe entirely) advocating for BTC as an exchange medium, not a method to avoid taxes. There appear to be plenty of people who use BTC to avoid taxes, but I don't think that's been a thrust in this discussion.

-Al

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#45 Post by T. Altmayer » August 29th, 2019, 9:54 pm

That may be true for the members of this Board Al, but as I understand it that is a prime benefit of bitcoin for sellers of merchandise. Is there really any other reason for merchants to prefer bitcoin?
Tom

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Scott G r u n e r
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#46 Post by Scott G r u n e r » August 30th, 2019, 6:21 am

How much work is it to implement? Seems a definite edge case for now at least, but if it is fairly quick and easy to implement and maintain... but guessing there are far better ways to spend developer time right now.
//Cynic

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Eric LeVine
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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#47 Post by Eric LeVine » August 30th, 2019, 8:26 am

Scott G r u n e r wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 6:21 am
How much work is it to implement? Seems a definite edge case for now at least, but if it is fairly quick and easy to implement and maintain... but guessing there are far better ways to spend developer time right now.
Pulling in the actual exchange rate tables is trivial--in fact we filter them out right now. The bigger problem is that a lot of the currency libraries out there don't support format/display of these properly. We're not going to be the ones to write that code. Also, it is not just BTC. There are quite a few currencies so a rather slippery slope. So punting for the foreseeable future.
-Eric LeVine (ITB)
It rhymes with wine...

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#48 Post by Louis d. » August 30th, 2019, 9:08 am

T. Altmayer wrote:
August 29th, 2019, 9:54 pm
That may be true for the members of this Board Al, but as I understand it that is a prime benefit of bitcoin for sellers of merchandise. Is there really any other reason for merchants to prefer bitcoin?
Dear T.Altmayer,

Let me quote Bitcoin.org to explain why we use Bitcoin as payment:

Choose your own fees
There is no fee to receive bitcoins, and many wallets let you control how large a fee to pay when spending. Most wallets have reasonable default fees, and higher fees can encourage faster confirmation of your transactions.

Protection against fraud
Any business that accepts credit cards or PayPal knows the problem of payments that are later reversed. Chargeback frauds result in limited market reach and increased prices, which in turn penalizes customers. Bitcoin payments are irreversible and secure, meaning that the cost of fraud is no longer pushed onto the shoulders of the merchants.

Fast international payments
Sending bitcoins across borders is as easy as sending them across the street. There are no banks to make you wait three business days, no extra fees for making an international transfer, and no special limitations on the minimum or maximum amount you can send.

No PCI compliance required
Accepting credit cards online typically requires extensive security checks in order to comply with the PCI standard. Bitcoin still requires you to secure your wallet and your payment requests, however, you do not carry the costs and responsibilities that come with processing sensitive information from your customers like with credit card numbers.

Get some free visibility
Bitcoin is an emerging market of new customers who are searching for ways to spend their bitcoins. Accepting them is a good way to get new customers and give your business some new visibility. Accepting a new payment method has often shown to be a clever practice for online businesses.

Accounting transparency
Many organizations are required to produce accounting documents about their activity. Using Bitcoin allows you to offer the highest level of transparency since you can provide information to verify balances and transactions through the block chain. For example, non-profit organizations can allow the public to see how much they receive in donations.

champagne.gif
BTC Wine

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#49 Post by Dale Williams » August 30th, 2019, 10:10 am

Louis d. wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 9:08 am

Protection against fraud
Any business that accepts credit cards or PayPal knows the problem of payments that are later reversed. Chargeback frauds result in limited market reach and increased prices, which in turn penalizes customers. Bitcoin payments are irreversible and secure, meaning that the cost of fraud is no longer pushed onto the shoulders of the merchants.
Which of course means customer has no payment-related recourse for retailers who don't ship, send incorrect product, send in hot weather, etc

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Re: Buying wine with bitcoin?

#50 Post by Scott G r u n e r » August 30th, 2019, 10:15 am

Dale Williams wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 10:10 am
Louis d. wrote:
August 30th, 2019, 9:08 am

Protection against fraud
Any business that accepts credit cards or PayPal knows the problem of payments that are later reversed. Chargeback frauds result in limited market reach and increased prices, which in turn penalizes customers. Bitcoin payments are irreversible and secure, meaning that the cost of fraud is no longer pushed onto the shoulders of the merchants.
Which of course means customer has no payment-related recourse for retailers who don't ship, send incorrect product, send in hot weather, etc
Yep. Bitcoin payments make sense only for the receiver- which is why (in part) they are most popular for ransoms. :)
//Cynic

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