A question for those in tasting groups or do different parts of a bottle taste different?

I have been in tasting groups for 20 years. Over that time, it seems that rarely is there a a run away group WOTN in a blind tasting. Its more likely that the votes are scattered. Sometimes the WOTN, actually gets no first place votes but lots of 2nds and 3rds. But, one other thing has intrigued me. Often, the votes seem to have some geographic (for lack of a better word) correlation. By this I mean that, those sitting next to each other often tend to like a wine better than the rest of the group. Presuming that scores are not being copied, why is that? I am not talking about everyone liking the second wine and hating the first.

Maybe it would be clearer with an example. We taste blind. Each person starts with a bagged wine, takes their pour and passes the bottle to their neighbor until everyone has a pour. Once all the bottles have gone around the table, we put them down and proceed at our own pace. So, each person has poured the wines in the same order but at differing points in each bottle. Last night, one of the bottles, a modest one by comparison, was labelled E. For me, it was the 6th bottle I poured out of 11. My two neighbors to my right had it as the 4th and 5th bottle they poured.

When the group tallies came in, the group had it 8th place. But, my neighbors had it 1st and 2nd and I had it 1st as well. For whatever reason, as it went around our part of the table, it seemed to hit a sweet spot. Now, at first blush, I might say this is random or coincidence, or whatever. But over the years, I notice this happening frequently. It doesn’t happen with all bottles and it doesn’t happen to the same people, but it is not random or coincidence (at least I don’t thinks so). Given that a typical tasting has 8 to 10 bottles and that at most this happens to one or two, if at all, it is a small effect, but given it happens consistently (I haven’t tracked it), there must be a reason.

For those of you who have followed so far, have you noticed this? Why do you think this happens to some but not all bottles?

Loren, I don’t take part in tasting groups, but I do encounter this on a regular basis, especially with older bottles. Very often, I find that some parts of the bottle taste better than others. For example, the first glass is usually the freshest. Coming back later, the wine has sometimes closed up again. Later still, it will re-open, before again hitting a dumb patch which is followed about three-quarters down the bottle by the best bit yet, which normally carries on to the end. Re-tasting a bottle the second day can be both infuriating or exhilarating. Having a wine with friends over dinner just makes this all more obvious. It only happens occasionally, but especially with more traditionally made Bordeaux. So I would imagine that this could be the case with a tasting group.

I can believe that a pour from a freshly opened bottle will be different than one from a bottle that has been left half empty for hours. I can believe that the last few pours from a bottle that has not been decanted could be different from the earlier pours. I can even find reasons to think that the very first pour from a bottle that has been left open, but not decanted, might be different from later pours.

However-I’m of the opinion that many tasters are affected by those sitting next to them. The clues don’t have to be verbal. Facial expressions and body language tell a lot.

A solution may be that all members double decant their wine (before coming within a predetermined time range or on-site, out of sight) so that the chance of sediment towards the bottom (last pours) is removed. This may also help “homogenize” the wine and ensure that everyone is tasting the same bottle. Or MollyDooker shake them?

Loren,

Wouldn’t it be more likely that what you observed is the wines evolution through time rather than the Position in the bottle. I have noticed the phenomena but always attributed it to time. For it to be position there would have to be some stratification of the wine which I have also never observed.

One other thought is the effect of conversation on perception. Unless everyone is silent, a neighbor expressing love or disdain for a wine will have a significant impact on your perception of that wine.

This was my thought. I am definitely influenced by people near me and what they say about the wine. Our group also generally tastes blind in the same way yours does. I do think time is also a factor – but my guess is that we are more influenced by what others around us say than we would like. Though I always think of it is learning something valuable from a colleague.

In my experience, the wines change a lot over the 1 to 2 hours of the tasting. People have very different palates for what they like in wine so the results are often skewed, but we usually have a consensus - the winner has a much lower score than the runners-ups.

Why don’t you post your group’s tastings and results? I ask because I began doing that recently and it appears I’m one of the few who do when a lot of folks here attend tasting groups regularly.

Are you double decanting the wines. Is this a function of sediment?

I used to post my notes all the time. There are literally thousands on WB and more on EBob. A friend of mine runs a web site and asked me to post my notes there, so that is what I do now, but if you are on Facebook, please friend me because links are there.

Nope, no table talk about the wines until the scores are turned in. We flatter ourselves to think that other people’s opinions matter so we have that rule. champagne.gif

No decanting but if there is an older bottle in the group we attempt to pass and pour with as minimal disturbance as we can (i.e. keep all bottles horizontal).

Perhaps but then why does it work for a few people sitting right next to each other?
Optimum amount of air?
Not as much air as the top but more than the bottom of the bottle?
I really have no idea but find it interesting.

Could be, but we taste at different speeds so I am not sure we would know which bottle caused that reaction. Maybe though.

My money is on human variation and time in glass as more important variables than which part of the bottle the wine came from. But your observation could be checked by doing a complex statistical analysis with tasters completely isolated from one another.

I bet people near the later part of the bottle are not getting clear wine due to sediment and that is at least one reason for what you are observing. Do you see this as much for whites as for reds?

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I would double decant EVERYTHING. Any decently old wine is going to taste much crappier after 2-3 pours, stirring up sediment. If every bottle is double decanted properly, every glass should taste the same.

Well, I´ve participated in tasting groups for 30+ years … all in all a good 600+ tastings …

1st: I´m no fan of groups ratings … preferences are too different … it´s fun (= funny) to count the votings, but for me (personally) it´s not significant.
I know what I like and prefer - and why … and often my personal opinion is very different of the groups rating …

Often, the votes seem to have some geographic (for lack of a better word) correlation. By this I mean that, those sitting next to each other often tend to like a wine better than the rest of the group.<<

IMHO it´s got nothing to do with the part of the bottle one tastes - because I usually decant … and have similar experiences.
I do think that certain parts of the tasting groups influence each other … sometimes it may be enough if somebody says “wow” to one wine (or “meh” to another one) … and the specific “corner” of the grops “joins” that opinion … simply groups dynaimics …
and one fact is: not everybody in a tasting group is a professional - or at least tastes and rates professionally …

So a group tasting is (or can be) very educational, but I won´t give much damn on the mean ratings … rather trust my own palate and draw my own conclusions … (and they may be very different from the majority …)

I have on several occasions done the following experiment, and had it done on me as well. Take two bottles each of the same red wine (it works particularly well on young Bordeaux) and pour the two ‘top’ halves in one decanter and the two ‘bottom’ halves in another decanter. Serve the decanters blind to people and ask them for their preference. Every time I have done it, experienced tasters did not know it was the same wine, and virtually everyone prefers the ‘bottom’ decanter.