Some Keller Rieslings victims of speculation

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Jürgen Steinke
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Some Keller Rieslings victims of speculation

#1 Post by Jürgen Steinke » November 27th, 2018, 4:28 am

Its been a while but I had battles with some guys on the old Parker Board who hyped the Rieslings of Klaus Peter Keller. These people were very active on every Bulletin Board with some importance. The message was always the same. Kellers Rieslings are out of this world, incomparable to anything else and so forth. No exaggeration was big and absurd enough to describe the supposed superiority of these Rieslings.

While Kellers wines are superb without any doubt their lonely status as an otherworldly product is and was pure nonsense. It was clear to me that this hype machine had no other sense than putting the wines in an other price category. With the advantage for those who own a large quantity of the wines already. Or for those who needed another luxury brand like DRC, Petrus or Louis Vuitton etc. I tried to argument against these people what earned me harsh comments officially and insults per private mail.

I was not optimistic to win the battle. Today I have the confirmation that I actually lost it completely. I learned that a bottle of Keller 2004 Kirchspiel GG was sold at auction for north of 700 Euros. This is so absurd. I owned 6 bottles of the wine and have 2 left. While this is certainly a fine bottle of wine you can easily buy 10 bottles for 70 Euros that are equal or even superior. I hate the idea that wine is used for speculation. But it's reality. I guess the next madness is already waiting.
Last edited by Jürgen Steinke on November 29th, 2018, 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#2 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » November 27th, 2018, 4:40 am

Just another one on the list of formerly accessible wines.

While the wines are very good, I never got the hype. They just don't resonate with me.
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#3 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 5:34 am

I think the wines are incredible. The dry wines are for me the best in Germany (others are close but no one else is consistently as good across the spectrum of wines they produce) and the fruity wines are up there with the best and consistently underrated. The hipping kabinett is consistently one of the best kabi’s produced.

I also think the wines are fairly priced. They’ve gotten cult-y, but I can think of 5 places in NYC where the 2017 kirschpiel and hubacker hit the shelves at well below $100 a bottle, which is not cheap but strikes me as fair. You didn’t have to be on a list like DRC buyers. You could walk in and grab them. The kellerkiste has inched up in price over the last few years but it’s still an amazing bargain and is offered for much, much less than it could bring. No one is passing it up at the prices offered and many would buy it if the price increased by 50% or more.

One of the things that’s nice about Keller is that people are actually drinking them, and quite frequently. A mere mortal can share a kirschpiel or hubacker with friends, unlike Petrus or DRC. I did a 2016 Germany tasting a few weeks ago and there were too many people that wanted to bring Keller (the kirschpiel was the best wine of the tasting, although not the most expensive).

The auction result noted by the OP strikes me as an outlier.

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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#4 Post by Jürgen Steinke » November 27th, 2018, 6:03 am

Alex,

the situation here in Germany is different. Its hard to come by Hubacker etc. And in Blind Tastings held in Germany with all the top producers Kellers wines are amongst the best but very often not on the very top of the list. BTW: G-Max is 4 figures already.

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#5 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 6:18 am

Well, it sounds like you think that the wines are both overpriced and not as good as some easily available alternatives. I would think that you would be thrilled with that situation. Why not just buy the other wines and leave the Keller to those who want to chase luxury goods? I think what you are saying boils down to something like "I don't like these wines very much and I am unable to get enough of them".
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#6 Post by Subu Ramachandran » November 27th, 2018, 6:30 am

Jurgen,

The prices of commodity wines are silly. But these are an effect of easy money generated by global central banks. In Europe ECB still has negative interest rates! One is paid to borrow money, however absurd that sounds!

Lots of cheap money is slashing around and drives up the prices of the so-called "hyped wines". Until the cost of money normalizes, these absurd prices will continue. Too much money chasing too few goods. Wine is just a small fraction where this cheap money lands; look at prices of luxury homes in Germany, fine art...

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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#7 Post by Jürgen Steinke » November 27th, 2018, 6:56 am

Alex,

you have to live with my opinion. I hate speculation. If its real estate or wine. And I know the negative effects for the consumers pretty well. Sorry if you have a problem with an attack regarding the Keller myth. I like Keller wines. I dislike the hype. And btw: Are you sure that you would be able to identify Keller Kirchspiel when I let you taste 10 Rieslings of the same caliber blind?

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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#8 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 7:14 am

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 6:56 am
Alex,

you have to live with my opinion. I hate speculation. If its real estate or wine. And I know the negative effects for the consumers pretty well. Sorry if you have a problem with an attack regarding the Keller myth. I like Keller wines. I dislike the hype. And btw: Are you sure that you would be able to identify Keller Kirchspiel when I let you taste 10 Rieslings of the same caliber blind?
Hi Jurgen. When I did my 2016 tasting a few weeks ago I initially misidentified another wine as the Keller kirschpiel. When the Keller was served, I thought it was the top wine of the night and thought "I had it wrong before - this is probably the Keller." Non-blind, generally I think the Schafer-Frohlich Felseneck is a better wine than Keller's Kirchspiel - at least for the vintages which I've had both going back to 2010 - (but its not as good as some of the other GGs), although I would note that the Felseneck is more expensive than the Keller Kirchspiel. For other wines from Rheinhessen, I think the Kuhling-Gillot GGs have been very, very good recently. The Pettenthal and Hipping are about 2 euro per bottle less than the Keller Kirchspiel. They are stylistically different than Keller however. If I tasted a bunch of wines blind and thought that others were better than the Keller than I would most likely buy them.

And I have no problem with any attack on the Keller myth or any issue with your opinion. I just don't think it makes much sense to say that the wines aren't very good while lamenting the inability to get them. If there are other better or comparable wines at lower or comparable prices, then it seems like you are in a great position. I don't buy much of Egon Muller's wines. They are incredibly expensive and I don't think the quality is better than comparable producers. But I have no problem with the prices. In fact, I'm thrilled that others seem to think the wines are worth chasing while leaving Lauer and Zilliken for me at very reasonable prices. I think of my idiosyncratic preferences as a real buying opportunity. If you were saying "I think Keller makes the greatest white wines in the world and I'm annoyed that the prices have gotten so out of control" then I would understand what you are saying.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#9 Post by m. ristev » November 27th, 2018, 7:17 am

A.Gillette wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 5:34 am
I also think the wines are fairly priced. They’ve gotten cult-y, but I can think of 5 places in NYC where the 2017 kirschpiel and hubacker hit the shelves at well below $100 a bottle, which is not cheap but strikes me as fair. You didn’t have to be on a list like DRC buyers. You could walk in and grab them. The kellerkiste has inched up in price over the last few years but it’s still an amazing bargain and is offered for much, much less than it could bring. No one is passing it up at the prices offered and many would buy it if the price increased by 50% or more.
i didn't see it anywhere on a shelf and pretty much all the places that put it online for $80-100 sold out immediately (never saw more than 2 bottles of each available either). manhattan wine company sold kischpiel for $130! it seems the market upswing hit very suddenly. i love the wines in the $50-60 range but pushing $100 for the entry gg's is getting too steep.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#10 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 7:24 am

m. ristev wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 7:17 am
A.Gillette wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 5:34 am
I also think the wines are fairly priced. They’ve gotten cult-y, but I can think of 5 places in NYC where the 2017 kirschpiel and hubacker hit the shelves at well below $100 a bottle, which is not cheap but strikes me as fair. You didn’t have to be on a list like DRC buyers. You could walk in and grab them. The kellerkiste has inched up in price over the last few years but it’s still an amazing bargain and is offered for much, much less than it could bring. No one is passing it up at the prices offered and many would buy it if the price increased by 50% or more.
i didn't see it anywhere on a shelf and pretty much all the places that put it online for $80-100 sold out immediately (never saw more than 2 bottles of each available either). manhattan wine company sold kischpiel for $130! it seems the market upswing hit very suddenly. i love the wines in the $50-60 range but pushing $100 for the entry gg's is getting too steep.
They sat at Manhattan Wine Company for about 4 days at the price. I thought that was too much as well. But there were lots of opportunities to buy right off the shelf and I bought from three stores that way. I bought magnums off the shelf at vintry fine wines when I randomly stopped by when walking my dog and they had 750s as well. I bought a few bottles from vanderbilt. Quantities were tiny everywhere, but that is just Germany 2017.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#11 Post by Russell Faulkner » November 27th, 2018, 7:31 am

Meh. Prices are what they are. Von see Fels and Limestone are lovely wines and £20 or less. Many of us will get our Kellerkiste for well under the ‘market price’ of a bottle of GMax and will drink them all gladly.

I guess you have an axe to grind for some reason.

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#12 Post by Greg K » November 27th, 2018, 7:41 am

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 6:56 am
Alex,

you have to live with my opinion. I hate speculation.
I don't think this is speculation if people are drinking the wine - and it seems they are.
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#13 Post by Kirk.Grant » November 27th, 2018, 8:40 am

I will agree that I think speculation isn't good for people that love the wines...and I count myself as one that loves the wines. It's not that there aren't other great GG wines from Germany. It's that these are the ones that I prefer. I don't like the Schafer-Frohlich Felseneck GG, because for me it's too bold and powerful. It's not what I want or am looking for. I similarly love other wines that I'll buy as long as I can afford them...but sadly I think the Keller wines are soon to be far beyond what even I think they're worth. Were they under-priced for their quality? I certainly think so...but once they're out of my price range or beyond the value I think they offer I'll look for others that I can still enjoy in my price range.
I tend to think of these wines like the Burgundies of the collectors before me. I know people that bought Rousseau, Raveneau, and Roulot (even I remember when Roulot was under $50) and they wouldn't sell the bottles they have. I can't imagine selling the remaining bottles of Keller that I do have...especially if I can't afford to keep buying them.
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#14 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » November 27th, 2018, 9:41 am

Alex - Jürgen never said the wines were not very good. He never said anything like that.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#15 Post by Mike Grammer » November 27th, 2018, 9:44 am

Thanks Jurgen and others, very interesting read here for me as I am only in my early exploratory stages of German Riesling. I've had very little Keller--a 2011 Hubacker, tasted 3 years ago, was good but seemed to need more time. I was entranced by a 2014 von der Fels. From April 2016:

"And "won-der-ful" works. Man was this good. Slate and lemon balm and apple all find their way up the snoot. This is crystal-clean to taste, with more lemon and unripe apple and a very steely and washed-stone underlay, and it has length to spare. Fantastic stuff, and I *never* use the word "fantastic" with the words "German Riesling". I will need to connive to source more."


To be fair, since tasting much more German in the intervening time, this note may be out of time and place now, but I would very willingly retaste to find out!
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#16 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 9:56 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 9:41 am
Alex - Jürgen never said the wines were not very good. He never said anything like that.
not very good for the price. that is the crux of his argument.
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#17 Post by Robert Dentice » November 27th, 2018, 10:17 am

Jürgen - I am not sure I get your point? One lone bottle of 2004 sold for a crazy price. BTW Klaus-Peter recently posted of photo of this wine and a positive of review of 2004s so that might have something do to with it.

Keller might be the largest holding in my cellar and I think they are incredible good values across the Board. Von der Fels and the other various bottles like the RR or KR are all great wines and well under $50 that can age. Kirchspiel and Hubacker have gone up in price yet are still under $100 which compared to other top German producers (e.g., Von Winning) is still more than fair and I hate this argument but compared to Burgundy it is not even close.

And even though you see G-Max listed for 4 figures they rarely sell. A shop in Manhattan had a 2015 listed for $1200 because they had no idea how to price it and just went by wine-searcher. I asked if they could do any better and they said sure how about $600.

I would love to see what 4 cases of G-Max or 04 Kirchspiel would sell for at auction...

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#18 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » November 27th, 2018, 10:25 am

A.Gillette wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 9:56 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 9:41 am
Alex - Jürgen never said the wines were not very good. He never said anything like that.
not very good for the price. that is the crux of his argument.
Is anything good for $700?
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#19 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 10:32 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:25 am
A.Gillette wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 9:56 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 9:41 am
Alex - Jürgen never said the wines were not very good. He never said anything like that.
not very good for the price. that is the crux of his argument.
Is anything good for $700?
Yes. Keller Pettenthal GG.
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#20 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » November 27th, 2018, 10:33 am

I am glad you are fortunate enough to think so.
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#21 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 10:37 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:33 am
I am glad you are fortunate enough to think so.
That's a totally inappropriate, snarky comment, David.
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#22 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » November 27th, 2018, 10:42 am

I was just being honest. I'm glad you are in a situation where you can afford the wines at that level.

I can't.
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#23 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 10:46 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:42 am
I was just being honest. I'm glad you are in a situation where you can afford the wines at that level.

I can't.
Huh. From your posts on this board I would have figured you spend a lot more than $700 a year on wine. Hell, I would have thought you spent that much a year in dirty & rowdy!
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#24 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » November 27th, 2018, 10:52 am

Well yeah, but not on one bottle!
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#25 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 10:58 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:52 am
Well yeah, but not on one bottle!
I see. So when you say you can’t afford it, you mean you can’t afford after you’ve already allocated your money to all of the other luxury goods you want. Are you really worried that you are going to run out of wine? This isn’t exactly what I think of as not being able to afford something.
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#26 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » November 27th, 2018, 10:59 am

I think a $700 bottle is beyond my comfort level. I can have a case of delicious wine for far less.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#27 Post by jbray23 » November 27th, 2018, 11:25 am

Robert Dentice wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:17 am
Jürgen - I am not sure I get your point? One lone bottle of 2004 sold for a crazy price. BTW Klaus-Peter recently posted of photo of this wine and a positive of review of 2004s so that might have something do to with it.

Keller might be the largest holding in my cellar and I think they are incredible good values across the Board. Von der Fels and the other various bottles like the RR or KR are all great wines and well under $50 that can age. Kirchspiel and Hubacker have gone up in price yet are still under $100 which compared to other top German producers (e.g., Von Winning) is still more than fair and I hate this argument but compared to Burgundy it is not even close.

And even though you see G-Max listed for 4 figures they rarely sell. A shop in Manhattan had a 2015 listed for $1200 because they had no idea how to price it and just went by wine-searcher. I asked if they could do any better and they said sure how about $600.

I would love to see what 4 cases of G-Max or 04 Kirchspiel would sell for at auction...
In Seattle the GMax went for $1200 and there were several buyers at that price... I laughed and thought that was ridiculous, then someone text me and questioned why I didn’t buy it immediately, and they were serious..
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#28 Post by Claus Jeppesen » November 27th, 2018, 11:49 am

Keller Rieslings are in a league of their own. Not only among German Riesling but among the finest white wines of the world
Why involve Louis Vuitton in this?
Instead you could name a lot of vignerons on the same quality and price-level as Keller
Coche-Dury.......
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#29 Post by Jürgen Steinke » November 27th, 2018, 12:14 pm

Claus,

can you identify a Keller Riesling amongst 10 other Rieslings from top producers in a blind tasting?

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#30 Post by Robert Dentice » November 27th, 2018, 12:27 pm

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 12:14 pm
Claus,

can you identify a Keller Riesling amongst 10 other Rieslings from top producers in a blind tasting?
As Alex will attest to I immediately called Keller in the tasting he mentioned above.

However that is not always the best test of a wine. I will conceder 75% of the G-Max that I have had were painfully too young and shut down.

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#31 Post by Robert Dentice » November 27th, 2018, 12:29 pm

jbray23 wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 11:25 am
Robert Dentice wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:17 am
Jürgen - I am not sure I get your point? One lone bottle of 2004 sold for a crazy price. BTW Klaus-Peter recently posted of photo of this wine and a positive of review of 2004s so that might have something do to with it.

Keller might be the largest holding in my cellar and I think they are incredible good values across the Board. Von der Fels and the other various bottles like the RR or KR are all great wines and well under $50 that can age. Kirchspiel and Hubacker have gone up in price yet are still under $100 which compared to other top German producers (e.g., Von Winning) is still more than fair and I hate this argument but compared to Burgundy it is not even close.

And even though you see G-Max listed for 4 figures they rarely sell. A shop in Manhattan had a 2015 listed for $1200 because they had no idea how to price it and just went by wine-searcher. I asked if they could do any better and they said sure how about $600.

I would love to see what 4 cases of G-Max or 04 Kirchspiel would sell for at auction...
In Seattle the GMax went for $1200 and there were several buyers at that price... I laughed and thought that was ridiculous, then someone text me and questioned why I didn’t buy it immediately, and they were serious..
I am not surprised and Coche Corton sells for $4-5000. However I bet you could sell 4 cases of the Coche for $5,000 and could never sell 4 cases of G-Max in Seattle for $1,200.

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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#32 Post by A.Gillette » November 27th, 2018, 12:56 pm

Robert Dentice wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 12:27 pm
Jürgen Steinke wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 12:14 pm
Claus,

can you identify a Keller Riesling amongst 10 other Rieslings from top producers in a blind tasting?
As Alex will attest to I immediately called Keller in the tasting he mentioned above.

However that is not always the best test of a wine. I will conceder 75% of the G-Max that I have had were painfully too young and shut down.
It is true! Robert nailed the Keller!
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#33 Post by Jürgen Steinke » November 27th, 2018, 12:58 pm

Since Claus stated Keller is in a league of its own it should not be a problem to identify his Kirchspiel it in a blind tasting of 10 bottles 2004 Riesling. I have experience with blind tasting and while it is possible to be successful sometimes it is the exception and not the rule. And that is true for even the best and most experienced palates. I had the pleasure to taste blind with leading wine critics, Sommeliers du Monde and so forth. Not Blind Tasting or objectivity is the problem but myth, image, price, ego etc.

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#34 Post by Jürgen Steinke » November 27th, 2018, 1:03 pm

Furthermore – in Germany a Riesling cup is organized every year. Experienced palates taste all top German Rieslings blind. As I said a Keller wine is often amongst the 10 best but I cannot remember that Keller was on top the last years. And btw: The statement the wine is too young is the common excuse when a result is not as expected.

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#35 Post by Alan Rath » November 27th, 2018, 1:04 pm

Keller is the SQN of Germany. It's a good thing to have a lightning rod wine like these to attract the big spenders, and leave all the other equally great (or better, for my tastes) wines to the rest of us mere mortals.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#36 Post by Claus Jeppesen » November 27th, 2018, 1:08 pm

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 12:14 pm
Claus,

can you identify a Keller Riesling amongst 10 other Rieslings from top producers in a blind tasting?
Vintage 2008 is easy
I am not good in blind tastings but Morstein is easy too Others will surely be able to pick others
I do not question the quality of other German top producers. They too are world class. I have several hundreds GG's in the cellar
But Keller is still in a special league
Did you ever hear of other Rieslings being compared to Montrachet?
And why Louis Vuitton instead of a Vigneron????
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#37 Post by c fu » November 27th, 2018, 1:09 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 1:04 pm
Keller is the SQN of Germany. It's a good thing to have a lightning rod wine like these to attract the big spenders, and leave all the other equally great (or better, for my tastes) wines to the rest of us mere mortals.
Your post reminded me you still have some Keller for me. LOL
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#38 Post by Subu Ramachandran » November 27th, 2018, 1:12 pm

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 12:58 pm
Since Claus stated Keller is in a league of its own it should not be a problem to identify his Kirchspiel it in a blind tasting of 10 bottles 2004 Riesling. I have experience with blind tasting and while it is possible to be successful sometimes it is the exception and not the rule. And that is true for even the best and most experienced palates. I had the pleasure to taste blind with leading wine critics, Sommeliers du Monde and so forth. Not Blind Tasting or objectivity is the problem but myth, image, price, ego etc.
Unfortunately its the nature of the world. Lots of those around.

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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#39 Post by Subu Ramachandran » November 27th, 2018, 1:17 pm

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 1:03 pm
Furthermore – in Germany a Riesling cup is organized every year. Experienced palates taste all top German Rieslings blind. As I said a Keller wine is often amongst the 10 best but I cannot remember that Keller was on top the last years. And btw: The statement the wine is too young is the common excuse when a result is not as expected.
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Jurgen, let it be. Its the way of the world....for now.

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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#40 Post by m. ristev » November 27th, 2018, 1:17 pm

a mag of 14 kirchspiel just went for $315 at k&l auction. probably the least impressive kirchspiel i have tasted.
i was offered a 6 pack of abtserde 16 for $135 per but ended up buying some elsewhere for less. unfortunately that is looking pretty attractive now!
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#41 Post by g.colangelo » November 27th, 2018, 1:58 pm

Thanks for the post, Juergen.
It's years that this hype machine is working and to a level which for me is very difficult to understand (why and how).
I have tasted the wines a few times, blind and not. Neither I nor those I tasted with were of the opinion that they were "in a class of their own". In the few blind tastings where I had them they did not stand out.
Very limited statistics, I'll be the first to say, and I do not want to convince anybody that this is how it should be. If your experience has been different, great!
The fact that their price keeps increasing makes them now completely uninteresting to me.

Unfortunately this kind of phenomena happens all the time in the wine world and I fully agree with Juergen that every time it happens it is a bad day for wine lovers.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#42 Post by Ethan Abraham » November 27th, 2018, 3:26 pm

I looked back over old email offers and the price (at least in NYC) for hubacker and kirschpiel are literally unchanged since the 2010 vintage. Sort of blows up this story...yes prices for the higher gg are probably up if you can find them. But imagine if coche meursault was the same release price as 7 years old?

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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#43 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » November 27th, 2018, 3:33 pm

Does that make Donnhoff the Prada of Riesling?

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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#44 Post by c fu » November 27th, 2018, 3:36 pm

Ethan Abraham wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 3:26 pm
I looked back over old email offers and the price (at least in NYC) for hubacker and kirschpiel are literally unchanged since the 2010 vintage. Sort of blows up this story...yes prices for the higher gg are probably up if you can find them. But imagine if coche meursault was the same release price as 7 years old?
It's really the Gmax that's jumped significantly in price. Similar to how Coche CC has jumped LEAPS and bounds in price.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#45 Post by Ledwards » November 27th, 2018, 3:49 pm

If the marketplace thinks the whites are such a step above...wait until they finally come around to taste and try to find the pinots/spats.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#46 Post by Ledwards » November 27th, 2018, 3:53 pm

c fu wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 3:36 pm
Ethan Abraham wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 3:26 pm
I looked back over old email offers and the price (at least in NYC) for hubacker and kirschpiel are literally unchanged since the 2010 vintage. Sort of blows up this story...yes prices for the higher gg are probably up if you can find them. But imagine if coche meursault was the same release price as 7 years old?
It's really the Gmax that's jumped significantly in price. Similar to how Coche CC has jumped LEAPS and bounds in price.
Not exactly true. Pettenthal, Hipping and Morstein as well- basically all the kiste only GGs.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#47 Post by m. ristev » November 27th, 2018, 4:12 pm

Ethan Abraham wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 3:26 pm
I looked back over old email offers and the price (at least in NYC) for hubacker and kirschpiel are literally unchanged since the 2010 vintage. Sort of blows up this story...yes prices for the higher gg are probably up if you can find them. But imagine if coche meursault was the same release price as 7 years old?
i'm not sure where you were getting your keller, but sounds like crush? wallys offered 15 kirchspiel at $50 a bottle. i have paid as little as $90 for mags of kirchspiel, only within the past couple of years. how has the price not moved? convive had 15 and 16 kirchspiel at $62 which was as high as i have paid for it.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#48 Post by Kirk.Grant » November 27th, 2018, 7:02 pm

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 12:14 pm
Claus,

can you identify a Keller Riesling amongst 10 other Rieslings from top producers in a blind tasting?
I don't know that I could identify a Keller specifically...but I bet if you throw 10 GG's that are from 2007 Keller is going to be at the top of my preference in the group. That's not to say that there aren't other wines I like...but even those are getting hard to find.
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#49 Post by Kirk.Grant » November 27th, 2018, 7:07 pm

m. ristev wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 4:12 pm
Ethan Abraham wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 3:26 pm
I looked back over old email offers and the price (at least in NYC) for hubacker and kirschpiel are literally unchanged since the 2010 vintage. Sort of blows up this story...yes prices for the higher gg are probably up if you can find them. But imagine if coche meursault was the same release price as 7 years old?
i'm not sure where you were getting your keller, but sounds like crush? wallys offered 15 kirchspiel at $50 a bottle. i have paid as little as $90 for mags of kirchspiel, only within the past couple of years. how has the price not moved? convive had 15 and 16 kirchspiel at $62 which was as high as i have paid for it.
It depends on the importer, distributor, and retailer and how much each of them are marking up the wines. Sounds like Keller isn't getting marked up at Wally's like they are at other places...that's awesome. I know I get great pricing from where I buy them and they're more expensive that that by a long shot...but I think buying from the same place is going to be really important until they're outside of my comfort zone in pricing...
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Re: Keller Riesling like Louis Vuitton – I said it long ago.

#50 Post by Russell Faulkner » November 27th, 2018, 9:06 pm

Lots of talk about dry wines here, but to my mind Keller are producing Kabinett in a style rarely found these days, alongside Julian Haart and one or two others. I adore the style and see no reason why the wines should obey the traditional pricing hierarchy.

The BA/TBAs aren't bad either!

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