Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

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Mel Knox
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#51 Post by Mel Knox » December 4th, 2018, 7:10 pm

Earlier this year I stopped for a hit of caffeine at a place out near the ocean here. Turned out the place was not just a coffee bar, but a nice dinner restaurant as well. I took a look at the wine list. It seemed as though the wine buyer was waiting for Jon Bonne to drop by, or at least some hipster wine geeks, in a neighborhood where houses start at 1.5 million.

One of things Bobby is trying to say is, Read the room. Don't try to make your hipster friends smile, try to find wines people who come to the restaurant will like. There is no parking to be had so people will have to walk over and take a cab. In the case of this restaurant I wanted to say, Mix something people have heard of in with Larry Schaffer's wine and the Massican. Bonne sold his car and moved back east.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#52 Post by GregP » December 4th, 2018, 7:16 pm

Larry,

Glad to be of help :-) And want to be very clear that I have absolutely nothing against either Larry and Raj, Larry was a tough buyer, but very fair. Only met Raj as somm at Mina's restaurants and never dealt with him on the business side. So, my issue is with what you correctly pointed out, let's call it somm insider club :-)

Yes, looking forward to Falltacular and catching up with some old friends!
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#53 Post by ryancurry » December 4th, 2018, 10:03 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 8:45 am
Ryan,

I'm curious to get your opinion on something - from your perspective, what are three things that set a 'fantastic' somm apart from all others? I am guessing, and I could be wrong, that their ability to taste blind is not one of them. It is an interesting skill to possess, but . . .

Cheers.

1. Ability to read the guest. True with any sales position, but I've seen some amazing sommeliers that can quickly read a guest, ask pointed questions and zero in on an appropriate wine with in a minute or two.

2. Maintain an accurate list that reflects the mission of the restaurant. The reflective of the restaurant part is important to me because some restaurants are suited to a wide and varied list while others serve hyper regional cuisine where a narrowly focused list makes sense. Most people don't care to talk to a sommelier. They want to efficiently choose a wine from the list that is in stock and will be delivered to the table quickly. This takes some logistics work on the somm side as well.

3. Have an open mind/ continue learning and exploring/ be kind.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#54 Post by Nathan V. » December 5th, 2018, 6:18 am

Mel Knox wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 7:10 pm
Earlier this year I stopped for a hit of caffeine at a place out near the ocean here. Turned out the place was not just a coffee bar, but a nice dinner restaurant as well. I took a look at the wine list. It seemed as though the wine buyer was waiting for Jon Bonne to drop by, or at least some hipster wine geeks, in a neighborhood where houses start at 1.5 million.

One of things Bobby is trying to say is, Read the room. Don't try to make your hipster friends smile, try to find wines people who come to the restaurant will like. There is no parking to be had so people will have to walk over and take a cab. In the case of this restaurant I wanted to say, Mix something people have heard of in with Larry Schaffer's wine and the Massican. Bonne sold his car and moved back east.
What do you mean by "something people have heard of"? Are you saying we all need to have Rombauer chardonnay and Silver Oak cabernet? I think that is really off base. I'm no sommelier (although I'm happy to hear how hard it is) but the goal of a wine program is to have wines that taste good, show well with the food and reflect the aesthetic of the restaurant.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#55 Post by larry schaffer » December 5th, 2018, 7:27 am

ryancurry wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 10:03 pm
larry schaffer wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 8:45 am
Ryan,

I'm curious to get your opinion on something - from your perspective, what are three things that set a 'fantastic' somm apart from all others? I am guessing, and I could be wrong, that their ability to taste blind is not one of them. It is an interesting skill to possess, but . . .

Cheers.

1. Ability to read the guest. True with any sales position, but I've seen some amazing sommeliers that can quickly read a guest, ask pointed questions and zero in on an appropriate wine with in a minute or two.

2. Maintain an accurate list that reflects the mission of the restaurant. The reflective of the restaurant part is important to me because some restaurants are suited to a wide and varied list while others serve hyper regional cuisine where a narrowly focused list makes sense. Most people don't care to talk to a sommelier. They want to efficiently choose a wine from the list that is in stock and will be delivered to the table quickly. This takes some logistics work on the somm side as well.

3. Have an open mind/ continue learning and exploring/ be kind.
Ryan,

Thanks for your reply and your input. Very insightful indeed.

I asked the same question on my Facebook page and it was amazing to see the number of responses I got and how varied they were. Even Mr. Stuckey stopped in to take part. It is obvious that some folks just don't 'trust' the somm at all and others are the exact opposite

Cheers.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#56 Post by larry schaffer » December 5th, 2018, 7:29 am

Mel Knox wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 7:10 pm
Earlier this year I stopped for a hit of caffeine at a place out near the ocean here. Turned out the place was not just a coffee bar, but a nice dinner restaurant as well. I took a look at the wine list. It seemed as though the wine buyer was waiting for Jon Bonne to drop by, or at least some hipster wine geeks, in a neighborhood where houses start at 1.5 million.

One of things Bobby is trying to say is, Read the room. Don't try to make your hipster friends smile, try to find wines people who come to the restaurant will like. There is no parking to be had so people will have to walk over and take a cab. In the case of this restaurant I wanted to say, Mix something people have heard of in with Larry Schaffer's wine and the Massican. Bonne sold his car and moved back east.
Mel,

If ONLY I was hip enough to have my wine in hipster restaurants, my friend . . .

I tell folks all of the time I'm pretty much 'screwed' in this biz:

1) I'm not young and hip.
2) I'm not old and established
3) I do not make a cab, pinot, chardonnay or sauvignon blanc and
4) I made wine in SB County, NOT in Napa or Somona or other more well known regions

Cheers.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#57 Post by larry schaffer » December 5th, 2018, 7:32 am

Nathan V. wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:18 am
Mel Knox wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 7:10 pm
Earlier this year I stopped for a hit of caffeine at a place out near the ocean here. Turned out the place was not just a coffee bar, but a nice dinner restaurant as well. I took a look at the wine list. It seemed as though the wine buyer was waiting for Jon Bonne to drop by, or at least some hipster wine geeks, in a neighborhood where houses start at 1.5 million.

One of things Bobby is trying to say is, Read the room. Don't try to make your hipster friends smile, try to find wines people who come to the restaurant will like. There is no parking to be had so people will have to walk over and take a cab. In the case of this restaurant I wanted to say, Mix something people have heard of in with Larry Schaffer's wine and the Massican. Bonne sold his car and moved back east.
What do you mean by "something people have heard of"? Are you saying we all need to have Rombauer chardonnay and Silver Oak cabernet? I think that is really off base. I'm no sommelier (although I'm happy to hear how hard it is) but the goal of a wine program is to have wines that taste good, show well with the food and reflect the aesthetic of the restaurant.
Nathan,

When I read Mel's post, I get the take home message to be that you need to have a little something for most potential customers coming in the door. Not everything for everyone, but something that is just 'familiar' to most folks.

Perhaps you don't need to have a Rombauer or Silver Oak, but it would be nice to at least HAVE a chardonnay on the list rather than a slew of unknown Italian whites and skin contact Gruners. And a cab would not be a bad bet - even if it is a Massican, just something that folks can relate to.

Though many folks may not be familiar with much in wine, they are familiar with the major varieties . . .

Cheers.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#58 Post by Ian Dorin » December 5th, 2018, 8:14 am

larry schaffer wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 7:32 am
Nathan V. wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:18 am
Mel Knox wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 7:10 pm
Earlier this year I stopped for a hit of caffeine at a place out near the ocean here. Turned out the place was not just a coffee bar, but a nice dinner restaurant as well. I took a look at the wine list. It seemed as though the wine buyer was waiting for Jon Bonne to drop by, or at least some hipster wine geeks, in a neighborhood where houses start at 1.5 million.

One of things Bobby is trying to say is, Read the room. Don't try to make your hipster friends smile, try to find wines people who come to the restaurant will like. There is no parking to be had so people will have to walk over and take a cab. In the case of this restaurant I wanted to say, Mix something people have heard of in with Larry Schaffer's wine and the Massican. Bonne sold his car and moved back east.
What do you mean by "something people have heard of"? Are you saying we all need to have Rombauer chardonnay and Silver Oak cabernet? I think that is really off base. I'm no sommelier (although I'm happy to hear how hard it is) but the goal of a wine program is to have wines that taste good, show well with the food and reflect the aesthetic of the restaurant.
Nathan,

When I read Mel's post, I get the take home message to be that you need to have a little something for most potential customers coming in the door. Not everything for everyone, but something that is just 'familiar' to most folks.

Perhaps you don't need to have a Rombauer or Silver Oak, but it would be nice to at least HAVE a chardonnay on the list rather than a slew of unknown Italian whites and skin contact Gruners. And a cab would not be a bad bet - even if it is a Massican, just something that folks can relate to.

Though many folks may not be familiar with much in wine, they are familiar with the major varieties . . .

Cheers.
That's my thought too. I think way too often restaurants alienate entire categories (big cabs and oaky chards are the top 2) in an effort to try to get people to "drink something else". Honestly, if you are a good salesperson, and the guest is a willing participant, you can sell them on something else. For the few narrow minded, it's OK to concede to them. NO ONE is going to revoke your cool kid card simply because you offer a big Cab and an oaky Chard on your list. Handcuffing those people to what you want to drink says you don't want their business.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#59 Post by GregP » December 5th, 2018, 9:45 am

Nathan V. wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:18 am
Mel Knox wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 7:10 pm
Earlier this year I stopped for a hit of caffeine at a place out near the ocean here. Turned out the place was not just a coffee bar, but a nice dinner restaurant as well. I took a look at the wine list. It seemed as though the wine buyer was waiting for Jon Bonne to drop by, or at least some hipster wine geeks, in a neighborhood where houses start at 1.5 million.

One of things Bobby is trying to say is, Read the room. Don't try to make your hipster friends smile, try to find wines people who come to the restaurant will like. There is no parking to be had so people will have to walk over and take a cab. In the case of this restaurant I wanted to say, Mix something people have heard of in with Larry Schaffer's wine and the Massican. Bonne sold his car and moved back east.
What do you mean by "something people have heard of"? Are you saying we all need to have Rombauer chardonnay and Silver Oak cabernet? I think that is really off base. I'm no sommelier (although I'm happy to hear how hard it is) but the goal of a wine program is to have wines that taste good, show well with the food and reflect the aesthetic of the restaurant.
I'm as "offended" as you are when I see Rombauer, aka "Danville Crack" in East Bay restaurants and bars, or Silver Oak, but what Mel and others are saying is, don't have just one style of Chard, but a few, don't have one style of Cab, but a few, and maybe a few bottles for a more "adventurous" hipster crowd mostly driven by social media and lack of historical perspective, never even mind their PAYING customers' preferences. I used to work at Oakville Grocery Walnut Creek back in the day, and even though we tried to introduce customers to wines we thought they may and should try/like, opening a good number of bottles for free just to offer a taste, we also had "Silver Oak" customers that no matter what we tried and did, free tastes included, were simply set on a Silver Oak. One night a couple came in, told me they are looking for a bottle of Rombauer Chard. I pointed at a bottle of Dehlinger Chard and did my best to sell it, better price as well. Guess which one the husband bought in the end? "Dehlinger, Russian River? Can't be good". Next weekend, as I am sitting at a table at Venge, tasting wine with a few others, take a wild guess who rumbles in after spending a few hours in a long line at a Silver Oak Napa release day? (Just across the street). Yep, same guy wearing a Silver Oak sweater. Some, many?, people are just set in their ways, and if do not have what they want it may be the last time you see them in a shop or resturant.

Are you saying we should not have had Rombauer on the shelf, or Silver Oak? Actually, Silver Oak was only doled out to "good" customers in those days, from the stock room never making it to sales floor.

Although I am still not sure why people are not asking why some varietals became obscure in the first place after hundreds of years of market shake out.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#60 Post by Ian Brand » December 5th, 2018, 10:14 am

Let's just agree that you don't need four skin fermented natural wines on a list any more than you need to pour both Rombauer and Frank Family by the glass. One will do, and if there's more than one you love, rotate them.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#61 Post by Brandon Tebbe » December 5th, 2018, 11:52 am

Ryan,

I am well aware that there are other program for Sommeliers to study. Here are my credentials, which are not listed to impress you, rather to impress upon you that I have some experience in the area.

Master Sommelier – CMS (passed all 3 parts on first attempt)
Master of Wine Student – IMW
WSET Advance (with Distinction)
Advance Sake Professional – SEC
International Sommelier Guild - lvl 1&2 (pass with merit)
Certified Wine Educator – SWE
Certified Specialist of Wine – SWE
Certified Spirits Specialist – SWE
B.A.R. Smarts Advance Certified
VinItaly International Italian Wine Ambassador

In my thirteen years as a Sommelier, having worked with people Certified in the various programs….or none at all, I can definitely back my statement that for me (notice it’s my opinion) that someone who has passed the Advance level has the experience, the business knowledge, the broad level of wine, spirit, and beverage knowledge, the tasting ability, the theoretical and practical food and wine pairing experience, and the understanding of hospitality that it takes to run a program successfully.
I am expressing my opinion that after one passes the Advance, for me and from my over a decade as a Sommelier, Wine Director, and Beverage Manager/Director, that is when they have proved they have the knowledge and the experience. That is when I would hire them to run one of my programs. Yes, there are exceptional Sommeliers who have never been through a program. But they are few.

Ian,

I do not work in my own facility yet, and I understand that yeasts are floating everywhere and that being in a custom crush facility I am getting some of everyone’s yeasts. Yet, my fermentation’s, nor did the other wild fermentation in this three year old building, ferment in anyway similar to the inoculated ones. As for the “recipe of adds”…..Oenelees, Nutristart, Turbicell, FreshArom, Enzymes, etc. I was never for listing ingredients on labels….however now I think I am in that camp after seeing all this stuff pumped into wine. And I am not saying I am against adding anything. I understand in some years the need to acidify or water back. And yes, I have much to learn with this. Thankfully, this year I added nothing except a bit of SO2 to my red fermentors(something I may not do next year) and will add SO2 to the whites and reds after MLF. In two years I will be moving into my own facility, which has never been used to make wine, and I look forward to continuing to wild ferment (both initial and MLF).
Also, to be clear….I am not stating that by innoculating you are “manufacturing” wine. So everyone pissed off about that can cool down. I used it as PART of my example.

GregP

And yes, you taste and smell less differentiation between single vineyard wines (again, referring to single vineyards made by a single producer) that are “manufactured” than you do wines that are made “naturally.” If a winemaker is trying to take every fermentor and try to “create” the perfect numbers for whichever grape by adding acid, water, tannin, sugar and everything else listed above…..the wine loses its character. This is my experience after tasting wines all over the world. I do believe there is a huge difference in the complexity of wines that are made naturally than wines that are not. Again, I am not referring to faulted and dirty wines that are spoke of in this article.

Seriously? Of course we don’t teach this. Hence, why I keep reiterating that it is my opinion. “No wonder I have so much difficulty buying anything off of restaurant list lately.” That is general statement. Not really sure how to answer it because you don’t explain why.
As to seeing Somm’s making wine that end up on so many other Somm’s wine lists. It’s called networking, which translates to sales. If you are losing placements, perhaps find a way to connect with Sommeliers differently. Nielsen reports show that the influence of Sommeliers is becoming more important that that of the critics. It seems only natural to foster relationships with the people that sell your wine. Your general attitude seems to be somewhat anti-Somm.
This is one of the reasons I decided to move to wine country. There is a huge disconnect between winemakers and Sommeliers. I hope to find a way to change that. But I will do so by expressing my opinions (as seen here), opening dialogue and networking.

“There is a huge, humongous! Really, chasm between book knowledge and actual hands on experience. Shame that most Somm’s are guided by rather rudimentary book knowledge and a huge dose of “look at me” attitude that makes for a disservice to paying customers.

You kinda make my debate about Advance Somm’s here. Although I will throw this one back at you, as you appear to have a rudimentary knowledge of Sommeliers. I do not understand the “look at me” comments, and while I agree that Sommeliers should be required to obtain more “hands on” experience in the winemaking process….I also think winemakers should gain a little more “hands on”experience as a Sommelier. It would help to understand how your wine is sold, who is selling it, who is buying it and why, and would give you better insight into the grueling world of being a Sommelier. It is not drinking wine and “look at me.” It is paperwork, inventory, countless hours of studying, spending hours in tasting groups, working insane hours on the floor….studying food as well as spirits, beer, sake, cocktails, etc. Is this all Sommeliers? Hell no! But it is why I like CMS and why I like the Advance level…because these are those Sommeliers.

And GregP, just to clear this up again…especially since you did not read what I wrote, but rather formulated your opinion based on someone else misrepresenting what I said. I do not believe that six different producers wines taste the same. I believe that a single producer who attempts to “manufacture” wine by trying to use adds to fit a particular grape into a box, ends up with single vineyard wines that all taste the same. Obviously not exactly the same….but enough to where it takes away from the character of the terroir….define that however you like.
“Books don’t lie.”…..I leave that alone.
You seem like a very angry person. I don’t agree with everything you say. You don’t agree with everything I say. So what? I am sure I can learn as much from you as you can from me.

Larry,

I like the oak discussion. I am fascinated with oak. Through years of tasting I have found my favorite wines utilize the same coopers. Which is kinda cool to me. And I am not saying a I do not buy wines made with other coopers. Simply that I agree that it is a whole different piece in the toolbox of winemaking. One that I look forward to studying and learning more about.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#62 Post by Ian Dorin » December 5th, 2018, 12:23 pm

Ian Brand wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 10:14 am
Let's just agree that you don't need four skin fermented natural wines on a list any more than you need to pour both Rombauer and Frank Family by the glass. One will do, and if there's more than one you love, rotate them.
[winner.gif]
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#63 Post by Mel Knox » December 5th, 2018, 3:56 pm

A big shout out to Ian Brand for summarizing my thoughts so well.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#64 Post by Mel Knox » December 5th, 2018, 3:59 pm

To Larry S
I am older than you and make dry moscato G giallo....talk about being screwed
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#65 Post by Ian Brand » December 5th, 2018, 4:37 pm

Brandon,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I'd also be for ingredient labeling if I thought there was more understanding of what each product was. We use a pretty minimalist approach in our winery, but that's beside the point. Most of the products you listed above are yeast nutrients, usually vitamins and yeast byproducts (yeast hulls), but by using their proprietary names, it sounds ominous. It really isn't. There are additives that are a little scary, but most of the debate around things like Oenolees and FreshArom has to do more with do they actually do anything special for the extra $$. I tried some stuff like that for a client a decade ago. The control and the experimental lots smelled and tasted exactly the same. Shocking!!!! So at least you know who in the cellar has money to burn. You should see if they need some consulting work.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#66 Post by GregP » December 5th, 2018, 5:01 pm

He obviously hasn't even a faint idea about making wine, why explain nor teach someone with so many certs and claims/accusations about others manufacturing chemical cocktails? Or assume he can consult on anything. I'd love to hear from OR wine making community about his creds and accomplishments, I bet there aren't any to report.

Brandon, care to disclose your wine label?

And to be clear, I have absolutely nothing to learn from you when it comes to wine. Nice of you to evade answering pointed questions, with a list of your certs being the only card you have to play, and something expected up front. But, yes, thanks for confirming what I already suspected: your lack of rudimentary knowledge when it comes to wine making.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#67 Post by Brandon Tebbe » December 5th, 2018, 5:32 pm

GregP

I never meant you’d learn anything from me about winemaking. I was referring to the sales side, and to building relationships with Sommeliers and getting your wine on more of their lists. Yes I am new to Winemaking. So? I am expressing my opinion. This is my first year making wine. And I held to my beliefs, did it natural, and have my first five hundred cases of wines aging. My experience comes from years of tasting and talking with winemakers who passionately shared their knowledge. They didn’t focus on belittling everyone as you do. And I continue to talk daily with winemakers and learn more. And I see every year and daily now that I believe in a particular style of winemaking.

The list of credentials was directed to someone else’s comments pertaining to that subject matter. Do you just take everything you want out of context and redirect it in the form of negative insults? Is there a point to that? Quite frankly, I have no interest in trading insults with you. So keep them coming, I’ll Be ignoring you from this point on.

Ian, while these adds seem harmless to you....I think they change the wine. I’m not a fan. If someone likes to use it, so be it. But should we then knock Sommeliers who do not want to carry these wines? It is their job to make educated choices, and the fact is the consumer wants healthier and more natural foods and beverages. So, they ARE advocating for the consumer. Consumers are better understanding and seeking out Organic, Sustainable, and Biodynamic wines. Sommeliers are beginning to understand that wines are being doctored up with adds and chemicals. That it’s not just about vineyard practices, but winemaking practices as well.

Is Winemaking becoming a scientific beverage that we craft, or is an artful expression of what nature gives us. I prefer the latter, and I believe consumers will move in that direction as well.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#68 Post by Jim Brennan » December 5th, 2018, 5:44 pm

GregP wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 9:45 am
Although I am still not sure why people are not asking why some varietals became obscure in the first place after hundreds of years of market shake out.
Greg, could you rephrase without the double negative so I can better understand this statement (or is it a question, or is it not a question, or...)?

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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#69 Post by Mel Knox » December 5th, 2018, 5:51 pm

GregP

What has gotten you so upset about Brandon?? Did he used to sell Rombauer in Danville?? This reminds me of a retailer friend who sells $35,000 worth of Rombauer just by stacking it near the cash register. He is not crazy about the wine but he needs to pay his rent.
The name of Brandon's wine is listed with his name.

Greg P, what do you do?? If you want to know about me, just check my website.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#70 Post by tcavallo » December 5th, 2018, 7:23 pm

Ian Brand wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 10:14 am
Let's just agree that you don't need four skin fermented natural wines on a list any more than you need to pour both Rombauer and Frank Family by the glass. One will do, and if there's more than one you love, rotate them.
I would argue that you'd be far more likely to find more differences and points interest in four skin fermented natural wines than you would in four over-oaked CA chardonnays.

Also since when do restaurants all have to cater to the lowest common denominator? Would I go into Peter Luger and ask for my steak well done with ketchup? Or to Sushi Nakazawa and ask them to cook all my fish? Of course not, you go to restaurants where the food and beverage suit your tastes and desires. If it kills you to drink something out of your comfort zone, order a beer or a cocktail, or bring your own bottle and avail of corkage, just like I've had to do at the many restaurants I've been to whose list looked like it was written by the Southern rep in about 5 minutes. Or the steakhouses with industrial BDX and Cabs at 5x markups.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#71 Post by GregP » December 5th, 2018, 7:39 pm

Mel, I do know what you do, we communicated a good number of times in the past, going back years, even via email, although never met in person :-) I show last email thread right before v2017 crush. I make wine, buy barrels, and if you know another GregP out there, please let me know :-)

Jim, what seems to be confusing in my statement? Varietals that became obscure because they could not compete with others, via natural selection so to speak, in the marketplace? Not sure what you are asking me to rephrase, where is the double negative? There is a reason so many varietals are "fillers" in blends, but not a single varietal bottling. Also, you can buy chocolate wine, or, say, white Merlot these days, doesn't mean I should see them on a wine list, IMO.

Brandon, precisely why I picked on you, sales, in addition to your baseless accusations. When so many of you reject wines with an excuse of them not fitting your food programs, supposedly, and yet as long as some somm name is associated with them all of a sudden they turn magical and fit that same food program. Never mind they are made from same vineyards and grapes, BY A WINEMAKER who is not a somm, and not really standing out in any way in a blind tasting, middle of the road at best. You know, snake oil sales. I really dislike the crony network of somms getting into business using nothing but their name as selling card when most of you guys don't even show up at the winery during crush. I seriously dislike painting with a broad paint brush as well, as you did, all the while insinuating and accusing some, or all, of making chemical concoctions, via "full recipe adds", and yet you just confirmed above you have no idea of the subject to begin with. Really don't care about your excuses and "explanations" and trying to wiggle out of answering questions nor providing proof and names of those you accuse of shenanigans in the winery, and waiving your certs as if they should mean anything to me when you then fail at Wine Making 101, hard. If you want to discuss wine notes and tastings, great, but you should keep your nose out of wine making discussions and worse yet, making wild accusations backed up only by your certs. Clear enough? Or should I type slower?

So, I am asking again, what is your label and WHO makes it for you, because its very obvious by now you are incapable on your own. And I am asking for the third time now, post your "full recipe add" list, I really want to see what's on it and how your somm trained mind assumes and imagines things. And I am sure I am not alone in wanting to see said list, others are just polite and staying on the sideline for now.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#72 Post by DanielPaik » December 5th, 2018, 7:45 pm

Mel Knox wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 5:51 pm
GregP

What has gotten you so upset about Brandon?? Did he used to sell Rombauer in Danville?? This reminds me of a retailer friend who sells $35,000 worth of Rombauer just by stacking it near the cash register. He is not crazy about the wine but he needs to pay his rent.
The name of Brandon's wine is listed with his name.

Greg P, what do you do?? If you want to know about me, just check my website.
Seems like he has a personal bone to pick with sommeliers

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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#73 Post by Bruce Hyde » December 5th, 2018, 7:57 pm

I've sure seen a lot of full restaurants with "difficult" lists lately. I guess all the young folks don't realize the natty wines they like are, in fact, terrible.

The restaurant business is tough. If your customers don't like what you're doing, you go out of business. Quickly.

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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#74 Post by Mel Knox » December 5th, 2018, 8:08 pm

Greg,
Under your name it says you joined recently so I thought maybe there were two of you. It's all coming back now. Why is it obvious that Brandon is incapable of making wine?? Should we taste it first?? Let's give the guy a chance. He passed his MS exam--not easy-- and is working on MW. Very few people have achieved both MS and MW. He seems to be on a learning track. As Whitey Herzog used to say, It's what you learn when you know everything that counts.

My point about the wine list I referred to earlier was that I did nt think that whoever put the list together was reading the room. The list might work at 21st and Minnesota but not in the Outer Richmond...but who knows, maybe I'm wrong.

I've been in the wine business for over 45 years and my basic goal has been to get repeat business. You don't get this by shoving your opinion down peoples' throats. You get repeat business by finding what works for your customer. When I was in retail we tried to get customers to try new things but I always said, Unless you're inviting me over for dinner, let's figure out what you like.

Some general said that when preparing for war, you make serious plans and then the war starts and all your plans get thrown out the window. Maybe building a wine list is a bit the same.
You plan for what you think will please your customers but then they actually show up. A friend of mine loves Fred Scherrer's Zinfandel so he put it on his list. It turned out the Zin lovers wanted something more powerful but the Pinot lovers wouldn t order Zin. So he found another Zin, and put the Scherrer Pinot on the list and everybody was happy.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#75 Post by Ian Brand » December 5th, 2018, 8:26 pm

tcavallo wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 7:23 pm

I would argue that you'd be far more likely to find more differences and points interest in four skin fermented natural wines than you would in four over-oaked CA chardonnays.

Also since when do restaurants all have to cater to the lowest common denominator? Would I go into Peter Luger and ask for my steak well done with ketchup? Or to Sushi Nakazawa and ask them to cook all my fish? Of course not, you go to restaurants where the food and beverage suit your tastes and desires. If it kills you to drink something out of your comfort zone, order a beer or a cocktail, or bring your own bottle and avail of corkage, just like I've had to do at the many restaurants I've been to whose list looked like it was written by the Southern rep in about 5 minutes. Or the steakhouses with industrial BDX and Cabs at 5x markups.
Of course you would argue that. And there are those that would argue that a Rombauer is nothing like an Aubert, which is nothing like a Marcassin, which doesn't hold a candle to a Ramey or a Kongsgaard or a Hanzell. And you'd both be right for your palates.

I would argue that by contrasting natural wine to Southern wine and industrial bordeaux you do us all a disservice. The wine world is not that duality. You need to aim higher! Talk about lowest common denominator.

I'm all for a well written natty list. I've seen some beauties. I've also seen some dogs. The beauties are a revelation, but running a top flight natty list involves knowing suppliers and how they store, getting the wine to the restaurant in good shape, investing in quality storage in the restaurant, training staff on the right way to open a wide variety of wines. Not like stocking industrial bordeaux at all!
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#76 Post by jcoley3 » December 5th, 2018, 8:33 pm

Brandon Tebbe wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 4:32 pm
I think Bobby nails it in this article. When mentoring Sommeliers now the biggest challenge I face is instilling in them that the list is not suppose to be a reflection of what they like or do not like. You curate a list based on the demographic you sell to, and based on the “vision” Of the program and restaurant.
And Sommeliers today are in a rush to get the “pins.” I’m not sure how many times I have to repeat to them that it is not about the pin! It’s the journey, the time and dedication to studying, to learning, to networking, Tasting, sharing and understanding Hospitality. Not service, but Hospitality. See Bobby Stuckey’s TED Talk via YouTube if you are unsure of the difference. Bobby is truly a Master in the art of Hospitality.

And I agree completely with Bobby that it is only once you have passed the Advance exam that you have achieved the level of knowledge and experience to understand and fulfill the role of a true Sommelier. And I’ll just put a stop to the idea that certifications are pointless. They are essential in providing a means to educate Sommeliers. There is a reason so many give up after not being able to pass their Advance exam, and then join the camp of anti-certification. It’s because it is really HARD, and takes dedication, long hours of study, requires you to taste and taste and taste….and to learn hospitality and humility. I’m not going to debate it, as I have lived it, paid my dues, continue to pay my dues, and have over two decades restaurant and have over a decade of experience working the floor and mentoring Sommeliers.
Brandon,

You make some very good points in your first paragraph here, particularly how many young wine people treat the program like a video game where they have to level up as fast as possible, and that hospitality is not the same as service.

That said, I have to admit I take your second paragraph a bit personally. I have worked at top retail and at top restaurants for about 20 years now. I am not anti-certification at all, and count multiple MSs as friends, including one who has achieved what you are trying to achieve with MS and MW. Maybe my guests over the years have been deprived of the "true Sommelier" experience, but they seem to keep coming back, and the "true Sommeliers" sure seem to keep recommending the places I work/own.

I won't debate it either, as I have pretty much two decades in this putting in dedication, long hours and tasting because I loved what I did and wanted to prove to myself that I was good. If other people thought I was, great. While I applaud what you have achieved in the profession, I have no intention of ever taking a back seat going the route I chose.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#77 Post by jcoley3 » December 5th, 2018, 8:35 pm

Also, Greg P!

This is turning into a great EBob throwdown throwback thread.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#78 Post by GregP » December 5th, 2018, 8:36 pm

Mel,

Actually, I joined right at the beginning when Parker decided I am surplus to requirements on his board after I interrupted his "lectures" to the unwashed one too many times, and many moved to WB, but was not posting for a number of years, so the account had to be reset and shows recent date.

There is nothing to taste, that is the issue. And won't be for a while, if at all. But he carries on as if he actually made wine. Some menial cellar work, for a little bit, and nothing more. There is no actual wine.

Have no idea what to tell you, but I am sure you can take a poll on this site of those who know me personally and they will be happy to tell you how I introduce people to wine, beginners and not, various world regions, styles, etc. Introduced many to blind tastings. Done serious regional and vineyard tastings for 30-50 people, whether at the retail shop or an offline, sometimes on my own dime, just to get people interested and involved. I've done nothing but try educating and introducing people to wine, for the past 20 years.

Seems many have misread what I said above, some maybe deliberately. I did not say have 4 different Chards on the list, I said have 4 or more different STYLES of Chard on the list so a customer can choose the one s/he likes, or try one s/he hasn't before. Same for other varietals. Included in that 4 or 5 STYLE choice you can have natural to oaky spectrum, I never said at natural wine should not be there sat all.

Funny to hear from those who never tried selling wine for a living. (NOT you).
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#79 Post by tcavallo » December 5th, 2018, 8:48 pm

Sorry maybe I should clarify a bit. The lowest common denominator comment was strictly in reference to the perceived need to have a Rombauer or Silver Oak on the menu, to please everyone. And my comments about the Southern/Industrial lists were in no way in direct opposition to natural wine, just saying that for my tastes I more often than not run into lists like those that don't have something for me.

I'm of the mind that making this a binary argument is a part of the problem. My cellar at home is a pretty solid blend of classic wines and natural wines, and the crossover between the two categories is more blurry than most people want to admit. I honestly don't see or experience this "natural wine zealot" that bad-mouths all non-natural wines all day, and shame on them if they're out there, but these articles that bad-mouth natural wine, whether directly or between the lines, are coming out what seems like weekly now. And they do the job they are intended to, which is to get clicks, but why continue to fall all over each other to argue the minutiae when we can all agree on so much. Of course minimal intervention is ideal, but not always possible. Of course organic viticulture is ideal, but not always possible. Of course a balanced wine list is ideal, but you may not always agree with the Wine Director / Sommelier's taste, just like you don't like the food from every restaurant.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#80 Post by GregP » December 5th, 2018, 8:55 pm

Hey Jim,

Been long time!

I tried staying away, but really cannot let these empty accusations stand. If no one takes it up it will make them true, by default. And, yes, I took his obvious BS personally.

I'll take your palate, without certs, over this hack any day of the week. He is nowhere near Parker standing, and I did not let Parker slide, either. Shame that those claiming to educate people are the ones propagating utter crap, because you know, certs!

Will be happy to open a few bottles with you at some point, not sure how often you come out West these days.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#81 Post by jcoley3 » December 5th, 2018, 9:03 pm

GregP wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 8:55 pm
Hey Jim,

Been long time!

I tried staying away, but really cannot let these empty accusations stand. If no one takes it up it will make them true, by default. And, yes, I took his obvious BS personally.

I'll take your palate, without certs, over this hack any day of the week. He is nowhere near Parker standing, and I did not let Parker slide, either. Shame that those claiming to educate people are the ones propagating utter crap, because you know, certs!

Will be happy to open a few bottles with you at some point, not sure how often you come out West these days.
It has! I'm hoping to get there Spring or Fall. Will keep you posted. Hope you're well.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#82 Post by Ian Brand » December 5th, 2018, 9:11 pm

Brandon Tebbe wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 5:32 pm

Ian, while these adds seem harmless to you....I think they change the wine. I’m not a fan. If someone likes to use it, so be it. But should we then knock Sommeliers who do not want to carry these wines? It is their job to make educated choices, and the fact is the consumer wants healthier and more natural foods and beverages. So, they ARE advocating for the consumer. Consumers are better understanding and seeking out Organic, Sustainable, and Biodynamic wines. Sommeliers are beginning to understand that wines are being doctored up with adds and chemicals. That it’s not just about vineyard practices, but winemaking practices as well.

Is Winemaking becoming a scientific beverage that we craft, or is an artful expression of what nature gives us. I prefer the latter, and I believe consumers will move in that direction as well.
Brandon,

I'm happy that consumers want more organic etc. sourced wines and vineyards. I help manage organic vineyards (with lots of old vines) and am working on turning a few acres more this winter. Healthy soils grow more resilient vines and better wines. I'm happy consumers want more low intervention, site specific wines. I'm not advocating for more adds and more industrial winemaking, just a little more knowledge before you make declarations.

I bet there are a great many very experienced and knowledgeable sommeliers and wine professionals that might take umbrage with the idea that they're suddenly beginning to understand that some wines are doctored with adds and chemicals. That might be a touch myopic. There have long been great, pure, site specific wines from places all over the world. It is a tradition I was proud to be mentored in, and one I am proud to continue.

I appreciate your enthusiasm.

Ian
Last edited by Ian Brand on December 6th, 2018, 5:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#83 Post by Ian Brand » December 5th, 2018, 9:20 pm

tcavallo wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 8:48 pm
Sorry maybe I should clarify a bit. The lowest common denominator comment was strictly in reference to the perceived need to have a Rombauer or Silver Oak on the menu, to please everyone. And my comments about the Southern/Industrial lists were in no way in direct opposition to natural wine, just saying that for my tastes I more often than not run into lists like those that don't have something for me.

I'm of the mind that making this a binary argument is a part of the problem. My cellar at home is a pretty solid blend of classic wines and natural wines, and the crossover between the two categories is more blurry than most people want to admit. I honestly don't see or experience this "natural wine zealot" that bad-mouths all non-natural wines all day, and shame on them if they're out there, but these articles that bad-mouth natural wine, whether directly or between the lines, are coming out what seems like weekly now. And they do the job they are intended to, which is to get clicks, but why continue to fall all over each other to argue the minutiae when we can all agree on so much. Of course minimal intervention is ideal, but not always possible. Of course organic viticulture is ideal, but not always possible. Of course a balanced wine list is ideal, but you may not always agree with the Wine Director / Sommelier's taste, just like you don't like the food from every restaurant.
I agree and appreciate that, but going back to a discussion we had on another thread, you and I seem to have had a very different experience of the 'natural wine movement'... and I am fully supportive of producers following their muse and morals. I'm glad that we can agree that it's either skilled craftsmanship or its not, whether vigneron, sommelier or chef.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#84 Post by Cris Whetstone » December 5th, 2018, 9:21 pm

Ian Brand wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 8:26 pm
I would argue that by contrasting natural wine to Southern wine and industrial bordeaux you do us all a disservice. The wine world is not that duality. You need to aim higher!
Just making sure this gets seen again. A truth that so often gets overlooked and rarely repeated. [cheers.gif]
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#85 Post by Brandon Tebbe » December 5th, 2018, 9:44 pm

GregP

My wine label is listed in my signature…has been the entire time.
It’s KELT Wines
Named for my four children: Kalyn, Ethan, Lily, and Tyler.

I harvested from 4 Vineyards this year, 2 for Pinot Gris (Weber and Murto) and 2 for Pinot Noir (Cedar Hill and Vitae Springs)

HARVEST
And yes these numbers were intentional for my PG’s.
Weber PG 20.9 Brix and 3.13pH
Murto PG 20.1 Brix and 3.12 pH

Weber was pressed Whole Cluster to 2 bar, full oxygen exposure, direct from press pan with gross lees (grape lees) to barrel, head spaces gases with CO2
1 once filled Damy 3Y
4 Neutral barrels
Remaining to kegs for topping

Murto had 5 hours crushed Whole Cluster skin contact, Pressed to 2 Bar, full oxygen explosure and direct from press pan to barrel with gross lees (grape lees). Head space gased with CO2

Neither had any additions of SO2 as I want natural MLF…..already a low pH will make it hard.
No nutrient was added, commercial yeast or any other adds.
After 5 days I applying two aquarium heaters to two barrels (one for each vineyard) and stirred the lees on the others. Once Fermentation kicked in, I added a gallon to each of the barrels, according to Vineyard.

Fermentation’s were nice and slow, one barrel of Murto is still kicking a little after 7 weeks.. Everything else is -1.8 to -2 Brix. Hard bungs replaces the fermentation bungs and now they are in the barrel cellar awaiting MLF.
They will remain on the lees for the next 12-15 months (unless any show signs of reduction, then that barrel will be racked and cleaned and wine returned) and will be bottled un-fined and unfiltered.
2 barrels of Weber will be lees stirred when topped up once a month.

After MLF I will add 25-50ppm SO2 to both whites




Cedar Hill PN 23.5 Brix and 3.3 pH (2/3 Pommard and 1/3 Dijon 115, 15% Whole Cluster)
Biotypes (clones) fermented separate
Vitae Springs PN 23.7 Brix and 3.3 pH (1/3 Pommard, 1/3 115, 1/3 777, 33% Whole Cluster)
Biotypes (clones) co-fermented

30ppm SO2 in the fermentors
No nutrient was used, commercial yeast, or any other product…in either red

Cedar Hill went through 96 hours ambient cold soak. 2 pump overs a day during cold soak. After which showed signs of EA, jumped in and did pigeage and we placed space heaters around it and brought it up to 80 degrees. Fermentation kicked off naturally. Fermentation lasted three weeks, 2 Punch Downs a day until 1 Brix, then 1 a day until -2 Brix (roughly). Then kept it in extended maceration for 14 days.. Free run was drained off and cap was pressed to 1.4 bar (to taste) and was taken from pan to barrel with lees.
pH when taken to barrel is 3.53 (no acid or water was added, nor was it deacidified)
Now waiting for natural MLF. Topping up once a month.

Vitae Springs went through 72 hours ambient cold soak with two pump overs a day. then I jumped in for pigeage and we heated it up to 80 degrees and fermentation kicked in. 2 Punch Downs a day until 1 Brix, then 1 Punch down a day until -2 Brix (roughly). Extended maceration for 9 days and then drained off free run and pressed cap to 1.4 bar (to taste). Attempted 1.6 but it was phenolic and astringent. Wine was taken with lees to barrel. pH to barrel was 3.47 (no acid adjustment or water)

Both reds had a little activity after in barrel due to Whole clusters. After this fermentation ended, topped with hard bungs and now waiting for natural MLF.

After MLF, both reds will be racked off lees and the addition of 24-50ppm SO2

All barrels for both PN this vintage are neutral. Next year I will be using once fills as well.

Both reds will be over vintaged….18 months. Bottled un-fined and unfiltered

I check random barrels once a week for reduction, as I have concerns with the gross lees in the whites. Everything smells beautiful. Whites had .89-1.11 grams Malo going into barrel, reds 1.9-2.1

Now I am obtaining glass samples so I can use something unique. Using DIAM10 corks for the reds, possibly Vinolock for the whites…but maybe DIAM. I will be bottling all myself with my wife and then soft waxing the tops.

Currently I am designing the website and as Sommeliers we are both already building interest and have started a mailing list.

I have a physical location, which with permits and some hard work on my part, and purchasing used equipment over the next two years....we will have our own facility.
Last edited by Brandon Tebbe on December 5th, 2018, 11:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#86 Post by Brandon Tebbe » December 5th, 2018, 9:55 pm

The Certifications have to do with being a Sommelier, and as I clearly stated...it is my opinion. You have yours and I respect that. And once again, I simply stated my certifications to make a point that I have experience with all the programs....in fact pursuing others now, so I have a valid opinion concerning them. That was related to a different part of this discussion....which has nothing to do with grape growing, nor winemaking.

I, like many of you, are very passionate about wine. And I am as opinionated as you all, just more respectful then some. I worked the floor as a Sommelier for thirteen years. Now, I find my passion in the vineyards and wine cellars. So I made that jump. I am surprised to learn of certain practices, and why should I not be vocal against them as you all are against “natural” wines. And I am against what we currently define that way as well.

Perhaps I am raising an idea, perhaps not. But it’s through the civil debates and discussions that one learns.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#87 Post by Ian Brand » December 6th, 2018, 5:38 am

Brandon Tebbe wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 9:55 pm
So I made that jump. I am surprised to learn of certain practices, and why should I not be vocal against them as you all are against “natural” wines. And I am against what we currently define that way as well.

Perhaps I am raising an idea, perhaps not. But it’s through the civil debates and discussions that one learns.
Critiquing is not the same as being against.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#88 Post by larry schaffer » December 6th, 2018, 12:42 pm

Ian Brand wrote:
December 6th, 2018, 5:38 am
Brandon Tebbe wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 9:55 pm
So I made that jump. I am surprised to learn of certain practices, and why should I not be vocal against them as you all are against “natural” wines. And I am against what we currently define that way as well.

Perhaps I am raising an idea, perhaps not. But it’s through the civil debates and discussions that one learns.
Critiquing is not the same as being against.
I also find it interesting that he says that 'we are all' against natural wines.

Just as it may surprise you to hear that I am not against corks, I'm not against Natural wines. But I certainly will be critical of those ones that are faulty, just as I am critical of corks that fail.

Cheers
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#89 Post by Brandon Tebbe » December 8th, 2018, 12:48 am

.
Last edited by Brandon Tebbe on December 8th, 2018, 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#90 Post by GregP » December 8th, 2018, 1:29 am

I'd rather drink 2BC.

You just joined the board and wasted absolutely no time pushing your swill while bashing others, with your ridiculous, and to some extent, libelous crap. Great move. You're still clueless on most of your points, keep talking and digging deeper. Great move, also, aging white varietal, OK, grey one, in used red wine oak, must be some new style for Pinot Gris no doubt backed up by your certs and deep book knowledge.

Anyway, nothing really to discuss with you at this point.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#91 Post by Mark Golodetz » December 8th, 2018, 4:40 am

John Morris wrote:
December 1st, 2018, 6:17 am
Ian Dorin wrote:
December 1st, 2018, 6:08 am
John Morris wrote:
November 30th, 2018, 8:15 pm


But she singled out this interview as an example of bad wine writing. Go figure.
I didn't know it elicited a response from her. Can you post it?
Someone sent me this post of hers on Facebook. Rereading her post, her complaint seems to be more about the editing than the content or the writing.
Judging by the quality of the writing of that Facebook piece, I would have thought she would be better off editing her own piece.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#92 Post by DanielPaik » December 8th, 2018, 6:25 am

Brandon, hope you don't leave based on just this thread's issues, and that you'll still contribute elsewhere on the forum. I for one appreciate civil discourse, even if I disagree with the points being made

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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#93 Post by Mark Golodetz » December 8th, 2018, 7:02 am

GregP wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 1:29 am
I'd rather drink 2BC.

You just joined the board and wasted absolutely no time pushing your swill while bashing others, with your ridiculous, and to some extent, libelous crap. Great move. You're still clueless on most of your points, keep talking and digging deeper. Great move, also, aging white varietal, OK, grey one, in used red wine oak, must be some new style for Pinot Gris no doubt backed up by your certs and deep book knowledge.

Anyway, nothing really to discuss with you at this point.
Greg,

The attacks are nasty and unnecessary; I am sure you can make all your points without resorting to personal attack.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#94 Post by Gary York » December 8th, 2018, 8:29 am

The "natural" wine stuff sounds good. But unfortunately most of them fail the smell/taste test. At least this is the case for many that I taste. So since many of the wines don't measure up it seems people that are trying to push the "natural" angle want to talk about how the wines are made. And that often includes putting other wines down for not being "natural". And I think this is more about marketing and selling the wine. I don't really care if a wine is natural or not if I don't want to drink it.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#95 Post by larry schaffer » December 8th, 2018, 9:14 am

I do hope that Brandon stays here and continues to take part in discussions. I have no issue with somebody being supportive when to Z Astic about a certain style of wine, but they need to understand that others may not share their same passion and have to be able to take a step back and look at things objectively.

And Greg, feel free to have private conversations with Brandon off the board with the language that you did, but let's try to keep things positive here please.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#96 Post by Doug Schulman » December 8th, 2018, 9:18 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 7:02 am
GregP wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 1:29 am
I'd rather drink 2BC.

You just joined the board and wasted absolutely no time pushing your swill while bashing others, with your ridiculous, and to some extent, libelous crap. Great move. You're still clueless on most of your points, keep talking and digging deeper. Great move, also, aging white varietal, OK, grey one, in used red wine oak, must be some new style for Pinot Gris no doubt backed up by your certs and deep book knowledge.

Anyway, nothing really to discuss with you at this point.
Greg,

The attacks are nasty and unnecessary; I am sure you can make all your points without resorting to personal attack.
I agree.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#97 Post by GregP » December 8th, 2018, 10:10 am

Easy for you guys to say when you are not, in any way, affected. When some of us have to deal with this crap constantly.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#98 Post by larry schaffer » December 8th, 2018, 10:18 am

GregP wrote:
December 8th, 2018, 10:10 am
Easy for you guys to say when you are not, in any way, affected. When some of us have to deal with this crap constantly.
Greg,

Not sure I understand your comment. I am a winemaker and also hear the stuff all the time. But there's different ways to go about addressing it. I think that is the point :-)
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#99 Post by GregP » December 8th, 2018, 11:28 am

Larry,

First off, my comment was for all the non ITB people. Although I am sure that similar statements against, say, legal community, would not be tolerated, in any way, shape or form. "Others use very questionable methods and practices, but I do not". Why should wine making community be different.

What is the way, please do tell.

He accused entire group of people of lying and "cheating" and no one cares? And where is that list of full recipe, after multiple attempts to get it listed after a heavy accusation and an immediate self promotion? As if that was not expected after his first post. He is yet another legend in his mind, same as others before. Did you read his blog? Native ferments show sense of place while inoculated mask it? Where is the proof, scientific proof, that is? Just another BS feed to a crowd that seems to be in awe of someone's BS only based on his certs. I made wine from same exact rows at same vineyard, a few actually, mostly native, sometimes not when vintage demanded I take no risk. I did not pick up any difference in "sense of place", neither did others, in barrel or bottle. He is lucky with the 2018 being almost perfect vintage in many respects, what happens in off vintages, will he use some of that "full recipe add" to survive, skip a vintage, or do what? Aging a white in used reds? Are you kidding me? Just shows how clueless he is. I won't even get into another really, hmmm..., let's call it "interesting" move, do not feel like helping him out at this point, we can discuss in private. Why is such behavior tolerated, at all, and those pointing it out are accused of being bad? This has gone for way too long now, isn't it time to put a stop to this? Don't know about you, but save for inoculating this year due to a brand new winery building there is absolutely nothing that is different from his claims to his wine making. Saying "others do" while not being specific is a bit criminal, and certainly very suspect behavior to promote himself. I am sure, well, I KNOW, that I am by far not alone in making wine with as little intervention as I can, why should I let someone say I do not. Like I said, he should either name names or shut up. NAME NAMES, all I am asking, stop accusing entire group while self promoting.

So, yes, tell me how. Just curious since you have been sitting on the sidelines, same as others did before in similar threads on eBob, and by that only instilling such bad behavior to continue, and propagate. When "nice" doesn't work, what do you propose to do? I do not recall you attending a specific Falltacular and also do not recall you participating in a similar eBob thread that precipitated that particular events of the Friday day and then pre-event dinner. Will be glad to fill you in in Feb of that flame out and how it actually resolved the issue at the time. At least it seemed to stop such behavior at the time, and for a while since, looks like some memories of that are foggy for some while some new players are now doing same old, same old.

Remember "Filtered wines have no soul" thread? Was I supposed to sit there quietly and talke this obvious BS when same legend in his mind scored a bunch of sterile filtered wines a perfect 100? I recall being accused of bad behavior back then as well and same "How dare you!" BS from non ITB people as well. Nothing new for me, even after so many years. "Het, it doesn't affect my bottom line, so what do I care?" Right? Same for trapped CO2 thread he jumped in, and then quickly backing out with that same "You're right, there is no actual scientific study to support my POV". Or brett one, that one was a classic as he claimed he pulled a specific bottle in question out of his magical cellar and declared it "crystal clear" and pristine, no brett at all, while, literally 3 minutes later, winemaker/owner chimed in and said "ALL our wines have brett". Why do we let people slide only because some are in awe of a name, or cert? Oh, and BTW, his own wines are not that remarkable as well, in a blind setup, same as these will turn out, IMO, in best case scenario. Underscoring my points in the thread. Some people don't really get a mild approach, and only serious push back against them and their egos may work.

Listening to your advise on how to approach it in a different way.
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Re: Incredible interview with Bobby Stuckey

#100 Post by larry schaffer » December 8th, 2018, 11:39 am

Greg

First off, you should know that you and I share a lot of the same thoughts on a lot of the same subjects. And I have not sat on the sidelines as much as you think I have. I do have strong opinions about things and if you look back on the board of the last number of years, I tend to get on to offer alternative views on lots of wine making topics. I cannot nor will I ever claimed to have all of the answers, but I do have points of view and I'm not scared to share this points of view.

As I said above, I do not agree with a lot of the things Brandon States with such certainty. Like you, I need proof, and you and I both know that most of the time, it does not exist.

I've spent the last Dozen Years looking at into spelling conventional wisdom that exist in the wine industry. I will certainly continue to do so, with an open mind that I'm far from being right all the time.

But it certainly is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. Weather Brandon is going to listen or understand that there are other points of you that may be correct or not is of no importance to me. What is important is stating your truths and hopefully people listen.

I take part in lots of threads, and in many cases, my words do not seem to be heard, at least by the fact that people don't reply to my comments. Other wine makers can get on and the responses are totally different, based on that winemakers knowledge or whatever.

Please keep sharing your perspectives and passion as this Board needs it. And I truly and honestly want that to take place.

Looking forward to seeing you again at Falltacular and trying your new wines, even if they are not as hip as others may be (tongue firmly in cheek).

Cheers.
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