Thoughts on stems / whole cluster...

Sitting here drinking a glass of 2013 Littorai Les Larmes Anderson Valley PN, and got to thinking about stems and whole cluster fermentation. From time to time, I find that stems bother me in a wine, even if I’ve had the same wine before and not really noticed it. Tonight, the stems in this wine are noticeable…positively in the sense that the aromatics are strong and interesting, but negatively in that I’m getting a bit of green and black tea coming through the fruit.

I started looking up articles on whole cluster fermentation and came across these interesting quotes both for and against the practice (attributed to The Pinot File - “Whole Cluster Fermentation: A Wild Card”):

For…
Ted Lemon, Winemaker, Littorai “The most basic chemical fact is that when you add stems to a wine, you increase the pH and decrease the TA compared to a completely de-stemmed wine. The implication of this is obvious. If you add a large percentage of whole clusters, you may, depending on region, vintage and ripeness at picking, have to acidify the resulting wine unless you are comfortable with very high pHs. That is the downside from a chemical perspective.”
“There is a difference between just adding stems back (which basically no one does) and doing a percent of whole cluster, because, the whole cluster brings a dimension of carbonic fermentation to the resulting wine. Besides the carbonic effect, there is also the sensory effect of the stems themselves. They can lend aromas which range from vegetal to menthol to wintergreen to cinnamon and spices. Stems can also have a dramatic affect on flavors. They can lend astringency and bitterness. Perhaps the most interesting aspect of stems is their effect on the tannic impression of a wine on the palate. Some people claim that stems make a wine more tannic. I would argue the other way. Due to the increase in pH and the presence of a partial carbonic maceration, whole cluster wines tend to be softer than de-stemmed wines (depending on the region, vintage and percentage of whole cluster).”

Against…
Wes Hagen, Winemaker, Clos Pepe Estate Vineyard and Estate Wines “Whole cluster fermentation is a Burgundian affectation that I have experimented with. While I agree that it adds some tannin and mid palate mouth feel to young wines, the broccoli stem/veggie/soy sauce character it seems to add to a young wine is not a flavor I enjoy in Pinot Noir. I spend considerable time with canopy management to get the veggie out of Clos Pepe fruit and not sure why I would want to put the flavor back in via stem inclusion. When asked why I don’t use stems in Clos Pepe wines, I usually give two answers: #1 I grow grapes to make wine, not stems, and #2 If you need better mouth feel out of Pinot Noir, structuring the wine with a little more acidity seems to be a better solution than letting the grapes get too ripe and flabby and then using stems to put a bit of bones back onto the flesh.”
“Stem inclusion does seem to integrate in a bottle-aged Pinot Noir, say 4 to 5 years down the line, just like oak, but at that point the tannins are mostly polymerized anyway, and the contribution to mouth feel is likely minimal. I believe taking Burgundian production techniques and applying them to California Pinot Noir is antithetical to developing our own regional identity - like bringing Hinduism to Salt Lake City. You may start with a few adherents, but eventually you will be talking to yourself.”

Curious to hear other opinions on this.

I’m curious to hear other people’s thoughts, too.

A couple of quick reactions. These guys are growing in rather different climates. I don’t know Clos Pepe’s wines, but they are in a rather different style that Lemon’s, no?

Also, there’s an extreme aversion to anything remotely green in California wines. So much effort has gone into purging cabernets of any olive or green pepper notes. Wes’s comments seem in line with that. Lemon cut his teeth in Burgundy and the Rhone, and I think that’s always shaped his approach and preferences.

John, in case you (or others) are interested, here’s a link to the article I referenced, which has quotes from other winemakers:

http://www.princeofpinot.com/article/865/

Thank god! I thought this was another thread on wine glasses.

Awesome! Updating the title now…

Thanks for posting this - love the topic and the information that is often shared.

One thing to note - we really do not know everything that is ‘added’ during the whole cluster process. There is a lot of speculation as to what happens but we honestly do not have any particular scientific proof because no 2 ferments are identical.

The idea ‘carbonic maceration’ - like aromas and flavors may occur depending upon how aggressively you crush the fruit and how aggressive your punch downs are. Some winemakers choose to pump over whole cluster fermentations, leading to the majority of the clusters being uncrushed during the process.

Keep the conversation going - and ask away any questions you may have . . .

Cheers!

I’ve had quite a bit of trouble distinguishing stems/no stems in pinot (e.g. Fourrier destems but sometimes tastes green and stemmy to me). It was a subject that was brought up at dinner last night (mostly in the context of whether such a thing as “ripe stems” exists and whether it makes a difference if the stems are ripe or not). My proposal was to find good examples of pinots (Burgundy, but I suppose this could be extended to the new world as well) where we had solid technical information about stem inclusion and blind taste whether there were stems or not.

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For Oregon, I would suggest:

Stems-Cristom, Goodfellow, Kelley Fox, and White Rose. I know both Cristom and Goodfellow(my wines) utilize stems every vintage. Stem “ripeness” is a complicated conversation that is both different for different regions and cellars. Stems lignify as the plant shuts down for winter. A more northerly region has a bigger shift in daylight to nightime hours as harvest approaches and often a significant shift downward in night time temps. The shift is important as a region with cool nights due to fog may retain natural acidity but not shift as the seasonal light change also changes. Then add in cellar choices-I don’t use any enzymes or cold soaks and, along with cool ferment temps, this helps me stay away from vegetal flavors in the wines. That said, it also drastically changes my fruit extraction…

Destemmed-Crowley(2014 is an exception), Westrey, J. Christopher, and Vincent(also I believe Belle Pente).

There’s someone in a group of mine who is very good at identifying the wines with stems in blind tastings. He’s right maybe 90% of the time. So it is possible. (I’m not good at it.)

I think that I know who this might be! [snort.gif]

Mr. I love Texier.

The inimitable David N, haven’t seen a post from him in quite a while.

I generally feel like I can taste the presence or absence of stems as well, but I enjoy wines made with stems about as much as David dislikes them…

DRC does a lot of stem inclusion. They have been mildly successful.

I quickly thought of Mr. Z when reading the original post and, on particular, David’s comments on Kutch Falstaff and Copain Kiser and stem inclusion.
While his tone, expressed in a direct and unabashed manner, was taken as harsh, I appreciate his point that, if stem inclusion is noticeable and prominent, then the wine is not balanced. I am simplifyng the premise, but there is an element with which I agree. With any particular wine, you might find the herbal, and crunchy element of stem inclusion enjoyable. (I understand some people also like green bean flavors in their wine.). Similarly, some enjoy a cherry cola note. Some like candied black fruits in their pinot. I think that if one element is so predominate, then the wine is not balanced. Still could be enjoyable. And still may be your preferred wine. And the various elements may come back into balance over time. If at any point one aspect sticks its head above the rest, then to me that is a detraction.

That was my first reaction too. Adam Lee made Siduri wine from Clos Pepe as well as wines from the Sonoma coast- presumably close-ish to Littorai. IIRC he varied his stem inclusion dramatically depending on the vineyard (and vintage).

Well worth pointing out that DavidZ’s ability to admirably point out stem inclusion shouldn’t be separated from his distaste of stems. Not sure how this is relevant, but IMHO noteworthy. It just seems to me that it would be different if he were otherwise indifferent to stems but could similarly consistently point out the stem presence of any wine.

Btw, I miss the guy here.

We have moved from some, of random-ish, stem inclusion to a much more methodical use of stems in our fermentation’s. This has occurred over the past 8 (2011-18) vintages.

We have the fortune of working with a large cross-section of northern Willamette Valley sites and have worked diligently at discovering what stem inclusion can/does/will bring to ferments.

There is no absolute answer is the answer. I am highly inclined to stem inclusion and believe our best sites and, particularly, sections within those sites are highly capable of turning stem inclusion fermentations into great wines. However, it is not always the answer. I usually think that stem inclusion will increase the complexity, uniqueness and the exposure of a site’s character. Most Oregon sites are inclined toward fruit forward aspects and they can benefit from stem inclusion to re-focus that natural energy in a way that brings out a greater array of site derived aromatics and flavors.

There are few wines that we produce (a large swath) that have no stem inclusion aspects to them. But we have great wines that are all de-stemmed as well. I will generally err on the side of putting stems in. The wines are more likely better off for it and rarely suffer from it.

We take every measure to make sure the stem inclusion is handled gently. This year 135 fermentations were all pigeaged and that has been the case for several vintages. It is labor intense and time consuming but it works. I think one could come through our cellar and barrel taste and tell that there was or was not stem inclusion but not based upon vegetal characteristics in the wines.

Largely our wines have significantly benefited by our increase use of stems over the years. Mostly our best wines have heavy use of stems. It’s not across the bird but it is close. I know and have seen the shortcomings and failings of stem inclusion and know it is not for every winery and site let along every consumer.

Anyone have a pretty good idea which Burgundy producers usually destem and which almost always do whole cluster and which may occupy the middle ground and may or may not add a variable amount?