d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

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Sh@n A
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d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#1 Post by Sh@n A » November 9th, 2018, 7:22 am

Had my first taste of d'Yquem last night (2017 Y and 2005 Sauternes) and the Sauternes was kind of an epiphany wine for me. So much mouthfeel, balanced acidity and such a long finish. Based on my quite limited data points, it had the unctuousness of a Rieussec, with more complexity, balanced acidity and a longer finish. For the record, that Y was also quite good with such strong aromatics and refreshing acidity (and I have even less experience here with this style of wine, and want to check this out too...). But man that Sauternes was liquid gold.

Before I rush to swap my wife's gold jewelry to purchase this liquid gold, I want to get a couple of other 375 stickies to compare against. For example, I will pick up a 2001 Climens and 2001 Suduirat (saw an old WB thread that raved and the price here is quite accessible!). Can folks recommend any easily sourced Tokaji (for the US) to try as well?
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#2 Post by Robert Pavlovich » November 9th, 2018, 7:29 am

I'd recommend grabbing a solid 99' Tokaj as an intro.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#3 Post by Elliot Steele » November 9th, 2018, 7:38 am

Oremus and Szepsy are a couple Tokaj producers I've really enjoyed. I believe Oremus is currently owned by the same folks who own Vega Sicilia. As an aside I find I enjoy Tokaj, and Beerenauslese for that matter, a lot more then Sauternes.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#4 Post by Howard Cooper » November 9th, 2018, 7:47 am

Sh@n A wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 7:22 am
Had my first taste of d'Yquem last night (2017 Y and 2005 Sauternes) and the Sauternes was kind of an epiphany wine for me. So much mouthfeel, balanced acidity and such a long finish. Based on my quite limited data points, it had the unctuousness of a Rieussec, with more complexity, balanced acidity and a longer finish. For the record, that Y was also quite good with such strong aromatics and refreshing acidity (and I have even less experience here with this style of wine, and want to check this out too...). But man that Sauternes was liquid gold.

Before I rush to swap my wife's gold jewelry to purchase this liquid gold, I want to get a couple of other 375 stickies to compare against. For example, I will pick up a 2001 Climens and 2001 Suduirat (saw an old WB thread that raved and the price here is quite accessible!). Can folks recommend any easily sourced Tokaji (for the US) to try as well?
While you are making comparisons, try gold capsule Auslesen from 2010 either from Schloss Lieser or Reinhold Haart.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#5 Post by Doug Schulman » November 9th, 2018, 9:38 am

If you want something that really impresses, I'd suggest a Royal Tokaji 6 Puttonyos single vineyard bottling or their Azsu Essencia.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#6 Post by Doug Schulman » November 9th, 2018, 9:38 am

Elliot Steele wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 7:38 am
As an aside I find I enjoy Tokaj, and Beerenauslese for that matter, a lot more then Sauternes.
Me too.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#7 Post by Sh@n A » November 9th, 2018, 9:44 am

I wish Tokaji's came in 375s or 200s! 500ml seems like a lot to polish off by myself. But it sounds like they keep well in the fridge; with a "Repour" on it, should go long.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#8 Post by Dave McCloskey » November 9th, 2018, 10:53 am

I've had three vintages of d'Yquem Sauternes and everyone was stellar!

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#9 Post by etomasi » November 9th, 2018, 11:07 am

There are difference in Tokaji. Maybe someone who knows better that I can explain the 3-6 Puttanyos vs. Eszencia?
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#10 Post by John Danza » November 9th, 2018, 11:27 am

I drink a lot of Sauternes, from new vintages all the way to those aged for 50+ years. IMHO, while d'Yquem is great, it's not worth the price difference between it and the other really excellent producers in Sauternes and Barsac such as Climens, Rieussec, La Tour Blanc, and others. While all of these may not be as good generally as d'Yquem, you'll get practically the same enjoyment and age-worthiness at 25% the price.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#11 Post by Chuck Miller » November 9th, 2018, 11:48 am

Not to be a pedant, but it is either Yquem or Ch. d’Yquem, but never just d’Yquem itself.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#12 Post by Paul Miller » November 9th, 2018, 11:50 am

Sh@n A wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 9:44 am
I wish Tokaji's came in 375s or 200s! 500ml seems like a lot to polish off by myself. But it sounds like they keep well in the fridge; with a "Repour" on it, should go long.
Whoa! 500ml by yourself in one night? I'm already getting a headache just thinking about this.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#13 Post by AAgrawal » November 9th, 2018, 11:51 am

John Danza wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 11:27 am
I drink a lot of Sauternes, from new vintages all the way to those aged for 50+ years. IMHO, while d'Yquem is great, it's not worth the price difference between it and the other really excellent producers in Sauternes and Barsac such as Climens, Rieussec, La Tour Blanc, and others. While all of these may not be as good generally as d'Yquem, you'll get practically the same enjoyment and age-worthiness at 25% the price.
I think this is true, except that most people tend to love Yquem, while the secondary chateaux each have their own fans. Some like Climens, some Rieussec, some Suduiraut, etc. If you drink sauternes, I recommend finding which one gives you almost as much pleasure as Yquem. There will be one, but it's not the same for everyone.

I agree with those who recommend Royal Tokaji 6 puttonyos single vineyards. Not cheap (>$100 per 500mL) but can be of similar complexity to Yquem. 2001 Suduiraut is also my other recommendation, superb for not that much money. Try the '01 Climens and '01 Rieussec if you can, but they may be less consistent than the Suduiraut right now.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#14 Post by Robert Pavlovich » November 9th, 2018, 12:17 pm

etomasi wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 11:07 am
There are difference in Tokaji. Maybe someone who knows better that I can explain the 3-6 Puttanyos vs. Eszencia?
6 Puttonyos probably translates best to the sugar levels found in Sauternes, normally coming in at 150 - 220 g/l. Those who prefer Tokaj (and German sweet wines) appreciate the higher acidity and perceived freshness in the wines.

With Essencia, it's more of a novel elixir as the sugar is normally around 450/l and can get way higher than that with very low alcohol and syrupy textures.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#15 Post by Sh@n A » November 9th, 2018, 12:25 pm

Found a great summary of Sauternes vs. Tokaji about 2/3 down this post:
https://forums.winespectator.com/topic/ ... s-essencia
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#16 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » November 9th, 2018, 12:49 pm

I like both, I tend to get more apricot notes from Tokaji.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#17 Post by CJ Beazley » November 9th, 2018, 12:53 pm

Paul Miller wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 11:50 am
Sh@n A wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 9:44 am
I wish Tokaji's came in 375s or 200s! 500ml seems like a lot to polish off by myself. But it sounds like they keep well in the fridge; with a "Repour" on it, should go long.
Whoa! 500ml by yourself in one night? I'm already getting gout just thinking about this.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#18 Post by Jayson Cohen » November 9th, 2018, 1:15 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 9:44 am
I wish Tokaji's came in 375s or 200s! 500ml seems like a lot to polish off by myself. But it sounds like they keep well in the fridge; with a "Repour" on it, should go long.
A 5 or 6 Puttonyos Tokaji should have no problem lasting many days in the fridge. I think the longest I ever kept one was over a month, with the cork just reinserted. No prob.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#19 Post by Oliver V » November 9th, 2018, 2:21 pm

I like buying the old communist era Tokaji at auction. The quality control was non-existent back then, so you get a lot of weird bottles. But when you get a good one it's worth it.
etomasi wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 11:07 am
There are difference in Tokaji. Maybe someone who knows better that I can explain the 3-6 Puttanyos vs. Eszencia?
Basically in order of how sugary they are, 3,4,5,6 and then Aszu Essencia being the sweetest. The Royal Tokaji 1993 Aszu Essencia is the greatest sweet wine I have ever tasted, FTR.

Essencia (which is different from Aszu Essencia) is a different beast, made by collecting the runoff juice from the grapes. More of a curiosity in my opinion than a great wine tasting experience (though I have only tried it once).
Sh@n A wrote:For the record, that Y was also quite good with such strong aromatics and refreshing acidity (and I have even less experience here with this style of wine, and want to check this out too...).
Y is good but ludicrously overpriced. Much better values in dry white Bordeaux. I like Smith Haut Lafitte a lot.
For example, I will pick up a 2001 Climens and 2001 Suduirat (saw an old WB thread that raved and the price here is quite accessible!).
Try some old ones too. Sauternes is a bargain, and often underpriced for the quality at auction (much more so than Tokaji and especially TBA).
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#20 Post by Doug Schulman » November 9th, 2018, 2:28 pm

Oliver Viveier wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 2:21 pm
The Royal Tokaji 1993 Aszu Essencia is the greatest sweet wine I have ever tasted, FTR.
I think it probably is for me too. It's definitely at least in my top 3 or so, but I really can't think of anything else that I would put even in the same category. I had it a few years ago and it's almost as if I can taste the wine just thinking about it now. Otherworldly stuff.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#21 Post by GregT » November 9th, 2018, 3:11 pm

Found a great summary of Sauternes vs. Tokaji about 2/3 down this post:
https://forums.winespectator.com/topic/ ... s-essencia
Well Shan - I'm not going to retype everything I said on that thread, but I'm glad you found it. And if you're looking for a producer that is well worth trying, look for Alana if you can find it. Small producer in Tokaj, but top notch. [cheers.gif]
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#22 Post by Eric Ifune » November 9th, 2018, 4:30 pm

SGN's from Alsace and late harvest Chenin from the Loire can also be excellent. I'll toss in Austrian late harvest wines as well.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#23 Post by Sh@n A » November 9th, 2018, 4:39 pm

Eric Ifune wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 4:30 pm
SGN's from Alsace and late harvest Chenin from the Loire can also be excellent. I'll toss in Austrian late harvest wines as well.
As good/better than d'Yquem?
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#24 Post by Sh@n A » November 9th, 2018, 4:53 pm

Robert Pavlovich wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 12:17 pm
6 Puttonyos probably translates best to the sugar levels found in Sauternes, normally coming in at 150 - 220 g/l.
GregT's post (from many years ago) implied perhaps 5 Puttonyos would be also comparable?
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#25 Post by Jayson Cohen » November 9th, 2018, 4:55 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 4:39 pm
Eric Ifune wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 4:30 pm
SGN's from Alsace and late harvest Chenin from the Loire can also be excellent. I'll toss in Austrian late harvest wines as well.
As good/better than d'Yquem?
Can be. Why not? There was a thread on dessert wines a few months ago that you should be able to find where I think this came up. A great Huet or Foreau Vouvray moelleux will easily go head-to-head with Yquem. I’d also put a great Alsatian SGN Riesling or German BA/TBA/Eiswein in the same category.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#26 Post by Mike Evans » November 9th, 2018, 5:47 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 4:39 pm
Eric Ifune wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 4:30 pm
SGN's from Alsace and late harvest Chenin from the Loire can also be excellent. I'll toss in Austrian late harvest wines as well.
As good/better than d'Yquem?
I posted notes on CT from a tasting I attended 20 years ago where we had 4 vintages of Yquem. We had a very unusual result for the group in that everyone had the same favorite and second favorite wine, and neither were Yquems. My preferences that day were consistent with my general preferences for Loire, German, and Alsatian dessert wines over Sauternes in large part because they tend to have more acidity.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#27 Post by GregT » November 9th, 2018, 6:16 pm

implied perhaps 5 Puttonyos would be also comparable?
They've changed rules in the past few years and eliminated some of the confusing categories. In a sense, Tokaji-Aszú isn't really comparable to Sauternes and that's not comparable to Australian sweets other than the fact that they're high in sugar. They're made differently.

But they can all be pretty good, esp if you have a sweet tooth!
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#28 Post by robert creth » November 10th, 2018, 1:09 pm

I just opened a 750ml of a 1988 Climens this week and this was a wow wine. The glorious amber-gold color, the long legs and nose of over-ripe peaches, and the velvet feel on the tongue. The flavor was of slightly over ripe pineapple with acid cutting through the honey. Great with cut apple, cheese and nuts. Better the next day with foie gras mousse and crackers. Bought from K&L for $120. In comparison to a 375 bottle of Y’quiem 1988, bought from same for over $300 which, for me was not value for money. I love stickies and ports and drink them often. Check out Quarts de Chaume. Aged bottles are about 1/4 or less than Y’Quiem.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#29 Post by Ian H » November 10th, 2018, 2:15 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 7:22 am
Had my first taste of d'Yquem last night (2017 Y and 2005 Sauternes) and the Sauternes was kind of an epiphany wine for me. So much mouthfeel, balanced acidity and such a long finish. Based on my quite limited data points, it had the unctuousness of a Rieussec, with more complexity, balanced acidity and a longer finish. For the record, that Y was also quite good with such strong aromatics and refreshing acidity (and I have even less experience here with this style of wine, and want to check this out too...). But man that Sauternes was liquid gold.

Before I rush to swap my wife's gold jewelry to purchase this liquid gold, I want to get a couple of other 375 stickies to compare against. For example, I will pick up a 2001 Climens and 2001 Suduirat (saw an old WB thread that raved and the price here is quite accessible!). Can folks recommend any easily sourced Tokaji (for the US) to try as well?

My first d'Yquem was the same. Blew me away. Was the 2007. Made me want to get involved. I'd of course had other Sauternes and always enjoy them, I do have a sweet tooth, but this stuff was next level.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#30 Post by Robert Pavlovich » November 10th, 2018, 3:30 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 4:53 pm
Robert Pavlovich wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 12:17 pm
6 Puttonyos probably translates best to the sugar levels found in Sauternes, normally coming in at 150 - 220 g/l.
GregT's post (from many years ago) implied perhaps 5 Puttonyos would be also comparable?
Definitely listen with open ears to all Greg has to say on the subject. He's forgotten more than I know I'm sure. Have had the chance to taste along with him quite a few times, including an epic bottle of old Szepsy, which is the d'Yquem of Tokaj...however a bottle will cost a lot more than that 99' Kirayludvar you snagged.

Anyhow, would've said 5-6 Puttonyos but they aren't really making 5 any longer, which is a shame as I tend to prefer the slightly lower sugar levels of 5 (around 120-160).

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#31 Post by Eric Ifune » November 10th, 2018, 3:36 pm

Huet's 1989 Cuvee Constance is as good or better than most Yquems. Alois Kracher's TBA's are compared favorably with Yquem as well.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#32 Post by Sh@n A » November 10th, 2018, 4:07 pm

Robert Pavlovich wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 3:30 pm
Sh@n A wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 4:53 pm
Robert Pavlovich wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 12:17 pm
6 Puttonyos probably translates best to the sugar levels found in Sauternes, normally coming in at 150 - 220 g/l.
GregT's post (from many years ago) implied perhaps 5 Puttonyos would be also comparable?
Definitely listen with open ears to all Greg has to say on the subject. He's forgotten more than I know I'm sure. Have had the chance to taste along with him quite a few times, including an epic bottle of old Szepsy, which is the d'Yquem of Tokaj...however a bottle will cost a lot more than that 99' Kirayludvar you snagged.

Anyhow, would've said 5-6 Puttonyos but they aren't really making 5 any longer, which is a shame as I tend to prefer the slightly lower sugar levels of 5 (around 120-160).

Based on reading I suspect I too will prefer 5s. Look forward to opening the 6 with you and others at Paulee. And will snag some birth year Yquem in between...
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#33 Post by John Danza » November 11th, 2018, 3:14 pm

Chuck Miller wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 11:48 am
Not to be a pedant, but it is either Yquem or Ch. d’Yquem, but never just d’Yquem itself.
Is that written in some Sauternes rule book somewhere?
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#34 Post by AAgrawal » November 11th, 2018, 4:15 pm

John Danza wrote:
November 11th, 2018, 3:14 pm
Chuck Miller wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 11:48 am
Not to be a pedant, but it is either Yquem or Ch. d’Yquem, but never just d’Yquem itself.
Is that written in some Sauternes rule book somewhere?
I think it’s a general French grammar rule. The French are very particular about their language...
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#35 Post by Chuck Miller » November 11th, 2018, 4:51 pm

John Danza wrote:
November 11th, 2018, 3:14 pm
Chuck Miller wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 11:48 am
Not to be a pedant, but it is either Yquem or Ch. d’Yquem, but never just d’Yquem itself.
Is that written in some Sauternes rule book somewhere?
All the d' means is 'of' and is referring to the Chateau of Yquem, properly written as Ch. d'Yquem. If you want to write "I had an of Yquem 2001" be my guest but it isn't proper usage in English just as simply d'Yquem isn't proper usage in French.

Further, when spoken, the only time the d' is pronounced is when it is preceded by 'Chateau'. Without the Chateau d' in front, it is simply pronounced Yquem.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#36 Post by Sh@n A » November 11th, 2018, 6:24 pm

Eric Ifune wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 3:36 pm
Huet's 1989 Cuvee Constance is as good or better than most Yquems. Alois Kracher's TBA's are compared favorably with Yquem as well.
Added a Huet to the shopping list, thank you. Just curious, it seems 1989 was the first. Would any of the more recent releases compare, potentially with age (e.g., the 2015).
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#37 Post by Jayson Cohen » November 11th, 2018, 9:00 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
November 11th, 2018, 6:24 pm
Eric Ifune wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 3:36 pm
Huet's 1989 Cuvee Constance is as good or better than most Yquems. Alois Kracher's TBA's are compared favorably with Yquem as well.
Added a Huet to the shopping list, thank you. Just curious, it seems 1989 was the first. Would any of the more recent releases compare, potentially with age (e.g., the 2015).
Unlikely. The ‘89 is da bomb. (On par for me is the much different ‘95, but most people don’t feel that way.) It’s possible the ‘09 will reach these heights in time. Maybe.

For me the other top wines since the ‘89s (there are multiple great Huet sweet bottlings in ‘89) are the ‘96 and ‘08 Premier Tries, when no Constance was made.

Before ‘89, the most heralded vintages since the 40s for Huet moelleux are ‘59 and ‘71. But there are lots of great wines from other years as well.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#38 Post by James Billy » November 11th, 2018, 10:45 pm

I've heard Yquem's value is in it's ability to age slowly and transform into something special whereas Faurgues is of similar quality when young (?), but much earlier developing and, of course, cheaper, but not more so than the other Yquem contenders.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#39 Post by John Morris » December 4th, 2018, 8:16 pm

AAgrawal wrote:
November 11th, 2018, 4:15 pm
John Danza wrote:
November 11th, 2018, 3:14 pm
Chuck Miller wrote:
November 9th, 2018, 11:48 am
Not to be a pedant, but it is either Yquem or Ch. d’Yquem, but never just d’Yquem itself.
Is that written in some Sauternes rule book somewhere?
I think it’s a general French grammar rule. The French are very particular about their language...
Correct as a matter of French usage. But, then, they don't say Burgundy or claret, either.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#40 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » December 4th, 2018, 8:49 pm

Is that true for d’Angerville?

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#41 Post by Gerhard P. » December 4th, 2018, 11:48 pm

I wouldn´t forget the sweet wines of Austria, many certainly on the level of most Sauternes (if different).
TBAs, BAs, Ruster Ausbruch ... not only Kracher, but Feiler-Artinger, Schröck, Schuster, Tschida, Triebaumer, Opitz, Schönberger, Lentsch, Nittnaus, Haider ... but I´ve no idea what´s available in the US ...
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Sh@n A
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#42 Post by Sh@n A » December 5th, 2018, 5:27 am

oddly, I'm having allergic reactions to Rieslings, and not Sauternes or the single Tokaji I've tried so far. Is there something different about how Rieslings get their sweetness? I picked up a few Huets, but haven't had a chance to try them yet.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#43 Post by GregT » December 5th, 2018, 8:17 am

Correct as a matter of French usage. But, then, they don't say Burgundy or claret, either.
Or maître d'!

I guess you could say: "The master of gave me a bottle of of Yquem."

I think that's why the English just give up and massacre the French language as needed.
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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#44 Post by Jim Stewart » December 5th, 2018, 9:09 am

GregT wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 8:17 am
Correct as a matter of French usage. But, then, they don't say Burgundy or claret, either.
Or maître d'!

I guess you could say: "The master of gave me a bottle of of Yquem."

I think that's why the English just give up and massacre the French language as needed.
As usual :
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1) Point made!
Thoughts of a dry brain in a dry season.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#45 Post by Rob_S » December 5th, 2018, 9:56 am

Schoffit does an Essencia type wine must (I think it's about 3% alc. so not technically wine but is about 550g/ltr of sugar) called Rangen de Thann Clos St.-Théobald SGN Larme de Lave. It's syrup but with massive acidity. Special stuff but a few spoonfuls is enough.

Klein Constantia Vin de Constance from South Africa can play in the big leagues of sweet wines, especially with age.

Huet's 1989 Cuvee Constance will wipe the floor against all but a very few sweet wines in the world. Mostly certain vintages of Yquem.
utherland

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#46 Post by alan weinberg » December 5th, 2018, 6:50 pm

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 8:49 pm
Is that true for d’Angerville?
yes, Marquis d’Angerville. Or Angerville.

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Re: d'Yquem vs. Tokaji & Others

#47 Post by Joe W i n o g r a d » December 5th, 2018, 10:11 pm

One of the things I really appreciate about Kracher is that they release a range of 10-13 wines each year numbered from least sugar to most and publish tech sheets with the sugar and acidity levels for each. They use two different vinification techniques, 4 different grapes, and release a selection of bottlings aged 5, 15 & 20 years from their library every year along with their latest collection with tech sheets available for everything.

I’ve found their approach to be useful in learning my preferences for sweet wine... ie. taste through their bottlings and use the data to understand what works for you.

(It goes a little faster if you drop by their tasting room near Vienna, where they will gladly serve pours from dozens of open bottles [berserker.gif])

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