Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

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andrew messenger
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Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#1 Post by andrew messenger » October 15th, 2018, 5:25 pm

What company do you suggest? Looking for a great company at reasonable prices. Great or bad experiences would be appreciated

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#2 Post by J Dove » October 15th, 2018, 5:36 pm

Chubb
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#3 Post by ChrisM » October 15th, 2018, 6:23 pm

I use AIG, lots of people on here use Chubb. They’re both good in my opinion.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#4 Post by Chris T. » October 15th, 2018, 8:33 pm

Whoever insures “those nights” when the special bottles aren’t there when you wake up!!
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#5 Post by John Morris » October 15th, 2018, 8:56 pm

Search for Chubb and you'll fine earlier threads on this topic.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#6 Post by andrew messenger » October 15th, 2018, 9:17 pm

Looked up Chubb and AIG. Both seem to be about 1/2% per year. So a $100,000 cellar is $500/yr. Not cheap.

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#7 Post by Bruce Rudman » October 15th, 2018, 9:42 pm

andrew messenger wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 9:17 pm
Looked up Chubb and AIG. Both seem to be about 1/2% per year. So a $100,000 cellar is $500/yr. Not cheap.
I disagree on the value. My AIG policy covers fire, theft, a dropped bottle (or lots of dropped bottles), earthquake, and even cooling unit failure cooking the wine. If you have a $100,000 cellar, then you have bottles that come close to or exceed the annual cost. Worth one bottle per year to have peace of mind, IMHO.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#8 Post by andrew messenger » October 15th, 2018, 10:47 pm

Bruce, I get your point. Peace of mind is not cheap. However my home owners insurance is 0.2% of the covered value with a deductible. I’ll ask if they a a deductible rate

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#9 Post by Victor Hong » October 16th, 2018, 4:40 am

Look up Safe Harbour Wine Storage.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#10 Post by Chris T. » October 16th, 2018, 5:14 am

Victor Hong wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 4:40 am
Look up Safe Harbour Wine Storage.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#11 Post by Howard Cooper » October 16th, 2018, 5:41 am

I have insurance with AIG.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#12 Post by J Dove » October 16th, 2018, 6:21 am

Coverage through Chubb isn't as expensive as you note if you insure your home, vehicles, etc. through them.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#13 Post by Travis Fantz » October 16th, 2018, 6:43 am

Was anyone able to get insurance without having to change over their whole policy?
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#14 Post by YacobovE » October 16th, 2018, 6:50 am

Travis Fantz wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 6:43 am
Was anyone able to get insurance without having to change over their whole policy?
AmWins offers a solo wine insurance policy -- the group was previously Bliss & Glennon (before becoming part of AmWins) and they were originally affiliated with insureyourwine.com, which is when I started using them. PM me if you're interested and need contact details for over there (no affiliation outside of being a happy customer)
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#15 Post by Clint S Q U I E R » October 16th, 2018, 7:02 am

andrew messenger wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 10:47 pm
Bruce, I get your point. Peace of mind is not cheap. However my home owners insurance is 0.2% of the covered value with a deductible. I’ll ask if they a a deductible rate
Not a fair comparison IMO. The average homeowners claim is far, far less than the total value of the home. I'd imagine a disaster in the cellar (fire, theft, earthquake...) will affect a far larger % of your cellar than the average homeowners claim. Plus, with my AIG policy my wine is insured anywhere in the world which presents unknown risks to the insurer.

This type of coverage is more akin to jewelry/art coverage than homeowners and I'd be shocked if anyone had a deductible rate. It also seems to be an oligopoly which obviously doesn't help the consumer.

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#16 Post by Paul Jaouen » October 16th, 2018, 7:45 am

YacobovE wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 6:50 am
Travis Fantz wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 6:43 am
Was anyone able to get insurance without having to change over their whole policy?
AmWins offers a solo wine insurance policy -- the group was previously Bliss & Glennon (before becoming part of AmWins) and they were originally affiliated with insureyourwine.com, which is when I started using them. PM me if you're interested and need contact details for over there (no affiliation outside of being a happy customer)
I thought AmWins was a wholesale broker. Who do they place the insurance with?
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#17 Post by YacobovE » October 16th, 2018, 7:52 am

Paul Jaouen wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 7:45 am
YacobovE wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 6:50 am
Travis Fantz wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 6:43 am
Was anyone able to get insurance without having to change over their whole policy?
AmWins offers a solo wine insurance policy -- the group was previously Bliss & Glennon (before becoming part of AmWins) and they were originally affiliated with insureyourwine.com, which is when I started using them. PM me if you're interested and need contact details for over there (no affiliation outside of being a happy customer)
I thought AmWins was a wholesale broker. Who do they place the insurance with?
It's placed with The Marine Insurance Company
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#18 Post by Jim Clary » October 16th, 2018, 5:33 pm

Chubb. Not cheap but worth it. My cooling unit at our AZ home failed in the dead of summer, and blew 110 degree air into the cellar. We didn’t have a huge amount of wine there, but it was an $85,000 claim paid with no questions. They valued that particular cellar at 45% over what CT estimated it’s value to be. The process was completely hassle free.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#19 Post by Sherri S h a p i r o » October 17th, 2018, 2:20 am

Chubb writes mine as a separate rider attached to my homeowners policy.

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#20 Post by Kirk.Grant » October 17th, 2018, 2:39 am

Jim Clary wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 5:33 pm
Chubb. Not cheap but worth it. My cooling unit at our AZ home failed in the dead of summer, and blew 110 degree air into the cellar. We didn’t have a huge amount of wine there, but it was an $85,000 claim paid with no questions. They valued that particular cellar at 45% over what CT estimated it’s value to be. The process was completely hassle free.
That's always nice to hear...sounds like an easy system. Has anyone had this size of a claim that was also this easy with another company?
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#21 Post by John S » October 17th, 2018, 5:13 am

One is really best off to get the whole package (including homeowners) from one carrier. Chubb, Pure, and a couple other do this. It is hard to do one off and then I always worry about the actual coverage when needed. As noted above Chubb is great on a claim. I have used Chubb and now use Pure who is also great on a claim. With insurance do not shop just by price as then when you have a claim you will find out why they are the cheapest.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#22 Post by Victor Hong » October 17th, 2018, 5:49 am

John S wrote:
October 17th, 2018, 5:13 am
One is really best off to get the whole package (including homeowners) from one carrier. Chubb, Pure, and a couple other do this. It is hard to do one off and then I always worry about the actual coverage when needed. As noted above Chubb is great on a claim. I have used Chubb and now use Pure who is also great on a claim. With insurance do not shop just by price as then when you have a claim you will find out why they are the cheapest.
Perfect example of how cheap can turn out to be VERY expensive. Safe Harbour Wine Storage offers to insure wines held at its facility, for just $30 per month, apparently regardless of appraised value. Let us see if Safe Harbour Wine Storage will honor some upcoming theft claims.


SCHEDULE B
Premium Coverage Plan
Under the Premium Coverage Plan your wines in storage at Safe Harbour will be guaranteed against
fire, theft, breakage, water damage, flood, earthquake and spoilage due to mechanical failure
provided that the wines are properly packed and the contents of each case/package is accurately
disclosed. In addition all of these wines will require an appraisal of their value by Safe Harbour Wine
Storage, LLC. Value of wine declared by appraisal $______________________
Accepted: __________________________ Date: ___________________
Tenant Signature_____________________________
Tenant Name: ________________________ (Printed)
FEES
Appraisal Fee: 3% of the appraised value of the wine
Premium Coverage Plan Fee: $30.00 per month
Last edited by Victor Hong on October 17th, 2018, 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#23 Post by cjsavino » October 17th, 2018, 5:50 am

When I was getting homeowners insurance quotes last year, Chubb would only cover my wine if I had a full policy with them, and not a stand alone for the wine.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#24 Post by ChrisM » October 17th, 2018, 6:26 am

AIG is a stand alone policy for my cellar. Chubb wanted everything under one umbrella and I wasn’t willing to do that.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#25 Post by YacobovE » October 17th, 2018, 6:50 am

Kirk.Grant wrote:
October 17th, 2018, 2:39 am
Jim Clary wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 5:33 pm
Chubb. Not cheap but worth it. My cooling unit at our AZ home failed in the dead of summer, and blew 110 degree air into the cellar. We didn’t have a huge amount of wine there, but it was an $85,000 claim paid with no questions. They valued that particular cellar at 45% over what CT estimated it’s value to be. The process was completely hassle free.
That's always nice to hear...sounds like an easy system. Has anyone had this size of a claim that was also this easy with another company?
My only claim with Amwins was a single bottle of high-end Bordeaux that broke during a move a couple of years ago, super easy and fast claim process. Just a small fraction of Jim's claim, but it was comforting to see how easy the claim process was with Amwins after being a longtime customer.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#26 Post by Robert Grenley » October 17th, 2018, 8:16 am

I just switched to Pure after 30 years with Chubb, and that was just because, after my recent retirement, I reassessed how much I was paying for insurance and my agent, Marsh, put it out to bid among the few companies they deal with that only handle high net worth policies. Pure, apparently started by some former Chubb people, came in several thousand less for identical coverage for package of 2 homes and auto. In either case, the wine is a scheduled blanket (not listing individual bottles) coverage with both companies, and as such is not subject to the homeowners deductible just like scheduled jewelry, and is covered for breakage, fire, earthquake, theft, etc. (with a $75K per bottle limit...believe me, I did not ask for that, it is just part of it). I do not know what part of the total premium is for the wine coverage, as my agent and I were simply comparing Pure vs. Chubb for the exact same coverage I have had. No idea whether eithe Chubb or Pure writes coverage separately for wine if your homeowners is not with them.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#27 Post by Howard Horwitz » October 17th, 2018, 2:00 pm

Robert Grenley wrote:
October 17th, 2018, 8:16 am
I just switched to Pure after 30 years with Chubb. In either case, the wine is a scheduled blanket (not listing individual bottles)
I don't claim to be an insurance expert but I believe "scheduled blanket" may be an oxymoron. I think scheduled means each bottle is listed individually, perhaps even with a stated value. Blanket I think means there is coverage for the whole category of wine.

I have been buying stand alone wine insurance for many years and have used several companies because rarely does one company with good coverage offer the same thing year in and year out. Five years seems about right. My experience is that policy terms are extremely important and vary from company to company. Items to consider include whether wine is covered at market or replacement value, how market value is defined (if at all), and whether there is coverage/exclusion for utility outages or mechanical breakdown of cooling equipment.

Those who insure with Chubb seem to like it. I don't know about their coverage because they won't insure my part of town on the basis we're too close to an EQ fault.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#28 Post by Carlton McCrindle » October 17th, 2018, 5:13 pm

Timely thread. In a prior thread on this topic(there are at least 2 that I recall)someone mentioned coverage through State Farm, who presumably provides their homeowners insurance also. After several exchanges with my agent (and, indirectly, the home office) I get the distinct impression that I'm going to have to look elsewhere.
Just within the last several weeks, I have seen advertisements in an online wine periodical for a company called Kelly Klee. Is anyone familiar with them?














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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#29 Post by Travis Fantz » October 17th, 2018, 6:37 pm

I am going to have to check out some of these other places. AIG wanted me to switch all of my coverage to them. This is more frustrating since others haven't had to, to get coverage. Chubb was attached to another local company in Portland I had never heard of before inquiring. For some reason I thought Chubb was their own company. Eventually I might have to change everything over, but I have been with the same agent for 30 years and have had great customer service for my home, auto and business.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#30 Post by Philip N. Jones » October 17th, 2018, 9:36 pm

Does anyone have their wine insured through Amica? They have great customer service, but I don't know if they do wine.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#31 Post by Robert Grenley » October 17th, 2018, 11:46 pm

Howard Horwitz wrote:
October 17th, 2018, 2:00 pm
Robert Grenley wrote:
October 17th, 2018, 8:16 am
I just switched to Pure after 30 years with Chubb. In either case, the wine is a scheduled blanket (not listing individual bottles)
I don't claim to be an insurance expert but I believe "scheduled blanket" may be an oxymoron. I think scheduled means each bottle is listed individually, perhaps even with a stated value. Blanket I think means there is coverage for the whole category of wine.

I have been buying stand alone wine insurance for many years and have used several companies because rarely does one company with good coverage offer the same thing year in and year out. Five years seems about right. My experience is that policy terms are extremely important and vary from company to company. Items to consider include whether wine is covered at market or replacement value, how market value is defined (if at all), and whether there is coverage/exclusion for utility outages or mechanical breakdown of cooling equipment.

Those who insure with Chubb seem to like it. I don't know about their coverage because they won't insure my part of town on the basis we're too close to an EQ fault.
I may have misused the word blanket. It is insured as a scheduled collection, the individual bottle limit is $75K
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#32 Post by Phil Smith » October 18th, 2018, 3:08 am

Nationwide Private Client (ex Crestfield) does dedicated collectibles policies that include wine and challenges specific to wine (e.g. cooling unit failure). I can’t speak to their claims service, however.

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#33 Post by Brian Gilp » October 18th, 2018, 5:27 am

Bruce Rudman wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 9:42 pm
andrew messenger wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 9:17 pm
Looked up Chubb and AIG. Both seem to be about 1/2% per year. So a $100,000 cellar is $500/yr. Not cheap.
I disagree on the value. My AIG policy covers fire, theft, a dropped bottle (or lots of dropped bottles), earthquake, and even cooling unit failure cooking the wine. If you have a $100,000 cellar, then you have bottles that come close to or exceed the annual cost. Worth one bottle per year to have peace of mind, IMHO.
I really don't follow the logic of the bolded part. A 2000 bottle cellar can easily top $100K in value and doesn't have to have any bottles over $100 to do so. Sure many who have cellars of that value will have expensive bottles but its by no means a requirement to hit those valuations. And when you have a large cellar of moderately priced wine, the cost/return scenarios get different unless you have a fear of a situation that impacts one's entire cellar at once.

I think the question of insurance is what you are guarding against and how much are you willing to spend versus how much you may lose. When the yearly cost exceeds the most expensive bottle value by over 2X, then insurace for dropage of a single bottle makes no sense and its only for issues such as long-term power outage of an actively cooled cellar in a hot climate. My passive cellar without trophy bottles, which survived the only earthquake of the past few decades without a single bottle damaged, makes no sense to insure.

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#34 Post by Victor Hong » October 18th, 2018, 5:48 am

Which is costlier to replace, a $100,000 wine collection with trophy bottles, or a $100,000 wine collection without trophy bottles?
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#35 Post by Bruce Rudman » October 18th, 2018, 6:33 am

Brian Gilp wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 5:27 am
Bruce Rudman wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 9:42 pm
andrew messenger wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 9:17 pm
Looked up Chubb and AIG. Both seem to be about 1/2% per year. So a $100,000 cellar is $500/yr. Not cheap.
I disagree on the value. My AIG policy covers fire, theft, a dropped bottle (or lots of dropped bottles), earthquake, and even cooling unit failure cooking the wine. If you have a $100,000 cellar, then you have bottles that come close to or exceed the annual cost. Worth one bottle per year to have peace of mind, IMHO.
I really don't follow the logic of the bolded part. A 2000 bottle cellar can easily top $100K in value and doesn't have to have any bottles over $100 to do so. Sure many who have cellars of that value will have expensive bottles but its by no means a requirement to hit those valuations. And when you have a large cellar of moderately priced wine, the cost/return scenarios get different unless you have a fear of a situation that impacts one's entire cellar at once.

I think the question of insurance is what you are guarding against and how much are you willing to spend versus how much you may lose. When the yearly cost exceeds the most expensive bottle value by over 2X, then insurace for dropage of a single bottle makes no sense and its only for issues such as long-term power outage of an actively cooled cellar in a hot climate. My passive cellar without trophy bottles, which survived the only earthquake of the past few decades without a single bottle damaged, makes no sense to insure.


My point was peace of mind costs about one or two good bottles of wine per year. I live in Southern California and climate is a worry. Three years ago, just 48 hours before I left for a two week vacation in September (when temps were 90 degrees or more outside), my cooling unit failed. I got a replacement in before I left. Had it died just a couple of days later I would have lost $75K or so. We also have earthquakes. I don't buy insurance for a dropped bottle. I buy it for the catastrophic loss of my cellar that my normal homeowner's policy does not cover.

Maybe you don't need this in your area for these reasons. I think I do.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#36 Post by A.B ud res » October 18th, 2018, 9:15 am

Clint S Q U I E R wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 7:02 am
andrew messenger wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 10:47 pm
Bruce, I get your point. Peace of mind is not cheap. However my home owners insurance is 0.2% of the covered value with a deductible. I’ll ask if they a a deductible rate
Not a fair comparison IMO. The average homeowners claim is far, far less than the total value of the home. I'd imagine a disaster in the cellar (fire, theft, earthquake...) will affect a far larger % of your cellar than the average homeowners claim. Plus, with my AIG policy my wine is insured anywhere in the world which presents unknown risks to the insurer.

This type of coverage is more akin to jewelry/art coverage than homeowners and I'd be shocked if anyone had a deductible rate. It also seems to be an oligopoly which obviously doesn't help the consumer.
witih all due respect your assessment is not fair either. Insurance is about probability of hazard. Not at all "i'd imagine a fire, theft earthquake will affect a larger percentage..." Wine does not move, it cannot cause a damage to someone, it wont break. IT JUST SITS THERE. Insuring something that JUST SITS THERE should in theory be the cheapest peril to assure hands down. The above comparison to homeowners insurance is valid. A home has much more liability to it. people are walking in and out constantly. And since you mentioned artwork, The CEO of PURE insurance company (insurer to the wealthy) was asked about how they insure artwork and he said it always starts with where is it stored. Is it in a vault? a museum? is it on your front porch? the more CHANCES of peril, the higher the risk. I will say again.. WINE JUST SITS THERE. 1% or 2% premium cost is outrageous when framed in a risk/peril grid. Yet we pay it.. its probably just a gouging of the customer that will go on until disrupted. These ineficiences can last forever.. just look at mortgage Title Insurance.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#37 Post by Nick Ryan » October 18th, 2018, 9:57 am

A.B ud res wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 9:15 am
WINE JUST SITS THERE. 1% or 2% premium cost is outrageous when framed in a risk/peril grid. Yet we pay it.. its probably just a gouging of the customer that will go on until disrupted. These ineficiences can last forever.. just look at mortgage Title Insurance.
Because there are so few large wine collections the risk cannot be quantified easily so insurers charge more to cover for said lack of knowledge. Ideally if there were millions of wine collections, rates would be adjusted by climate, by cooling solution, and so on. I am confident that I've reduced the risk of total loss of my collection to near-zero, only being vulnerable to catastrophic fire. If that happens, well, I'll take it as a sign from Cthulhu and stick to everyday wines...
http://sites.google.com/site/nryan4242/CellarPlannerV11.zip

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#38 Post by Victor Hong » October 18th, 2018, 10:01 am

A.B ud res wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 9:15 am
Clint S Q U I E R wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 7:02 am
andrew messenger wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 10:47 pm
Bruce, I get your point. Peace of mind is not cheap. However my home owners insurance is 0.2% of the covered value with a deductible. I’ll ask if they a a deductible rate
Not a fair comparison IMO. The average homeowners claim is far, far less than the total value of the home. I'd imagine a disaster in the cellar (fire, theft, earthquake...) will affect a far larger % of your cellar than the average homeowners claim. Plus, with my AIG policy my wine is insured anywhere in the world which presents unknown risks to the insurer.

This type of coverage is more akin to jewelry/art coverage than homeowners and I'd be shocked if anyone had a deductible rate. It also seems to be an oligopoly which obviously doesn't help the consumer.
witih all due respect your assessment is not fair either. Insurance is about probability of hazard. Not at all "i'd imagine a fire, theft earthquake will affect a larger percentage..." Wine does not move, it cannot cause a damage to someone, it wont break. IT JUST SITS THERE. Insuring something that JUST SITS THERE should in theory be the cheapest peril to assure hands down. The above comparison to homeowners insurance is valid. A home has much more liability to it. people are walking in and out constantly. And since you mentioned artwork, The CEO of PURE insurance company (insurer to the wealthy) was asked about how they insure artwork and he said it always starts with where is it stored. Is it in a vault? a museum? is it on your front porch? the more CHANCES of peril, the higher the risk. I will say again.. WINE JUST SITS THERE. 1% or 2% premium cost is outrageous when framed in a risk/peril grid. Yet we pay it.. its probably just a gouging of the customer that will go on until disrupted. These ineficiences can last forever.. just look at mortgage Title Insurance.
Sitting somewhere can still entail risk. Look at what happened at Mare island, or at Safe Harbour Wine Storage.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#39 Post by A.B ud res » October 18th, 2018, 10:41 am

Victor Hong wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 10:01 am
A.B ud res wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 9:15 am
Clint S Q U I E R wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 7:02 am


Not a fair comparison IMO. The average homeowners claim is far, far less than the total value of the home. I'd imagine a disaster in the cellar (fire, theft, earthquake...) will affect a far larger % of your cellar than the average homeowners claim. Plus, with my AIG policy my wine is insured anywhere in the world which presents unknown risks to the insurer.

This type of coverage is more akin to jewelry/art coverage than homeowners and I'd be shocked if anyone had a deductible rate. It also seems to be an oligopoly which obviously doesn't help the consumer.
witih all due respect your assessment is not fair either. Insurance is about probability of hazard. Not at all "i'd imagine a fire, theft earthquake will affect a larger percentage..." Wine does not move, it cannot cause a damage to someone, it wont break. IT JUST SITS THERE. Insuring something that JUST SITS THERE should in theory be the cheapest peril to assure hands down. The above comparison to homeowners insurance is valid. A home has much more liability to it. people are walking in and out constantly. And since you mentioned artwork, The CEO of PURE insurance company (insurer to the wealthy) was asked about how they insure artwork and he said it always starts with where is it stored. Is it in a vault? a museum? is it on your front porch? the more CHANCES of peril, the higher the risk. I will say again.. WINE JUST SITS THERE. 1% or 2% premium cost is outrageous when framed in a risk/peril grid. Yet we pay it.. its probably just a gouging of the customer that will go on until disrupted. These ineficiences can last forever.. just look at mortgage Title Insurance.
Sitting somewhere can still entail risk. Look at what happened at Mare island, or at Safe Harbour Wine Storage.
Cmon Victor you're smarter than that.. you want to compare insurance cost for bottles held a private residence vs a commercial location/facility? Okay you are an insurer of artwork there are two identical pieces of art one is stored in the owners basement.. the other is stored in the warehouse on an open shelf where he has 25 employess moving around every day. Same rate? definitely not.
Andrew

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Victor Hong
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#40 Post by Victor Hong » October 18th, 2018, 10:56 am

WineHunter.

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Jim Clary
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#41 Post by Jim Clary » October 18th, 2018, 2:42 pm

A.B ud res wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 9:15 am
Clint S Q U I E R wrote:
October 16th, 2018, 7:02 am
andrew messenger wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 10:47 pm
Bruce, I get your point. Peace of mind is not cheap. However my home owners insurance is 0.2% of the covered value with a deductible. I’ll ask if they a a deductible rate
Not a fair comparison IMO. The average homeowners claim is far, far less than the total value of the home. I'd imagine a disaster in the cellar (fire, theft, earthquake...) will affect a far larger % of your cellar than the average homeowners claim. Plus, with my AIG policy my wine is insured anywhere in the world which presents unknown risks to the insurer.

This type of coverage is more akin to jewelry/art coverage than homeowners and I'd be shocked if anyone had a deductible rate. It also seems to be an oligopoly which obviously doesn't help the consumer.
witih all due respect your assessment is not fair either. Insurance is about probability of hazard. Not at all "i'd imagine a fire, theft earthquake will affect a larger percentage..." Wine does not move, it cannot cause a damage to someone, it wont break. IT JUST SITS THERE. Insuring something that JUST SITS THERE should in theory be the cheapest peril to assure hands down. The above comparison to homeowners insurance is valid. A home has much more liability to it. people are walking in and out constantly. And since you mentioned artwork, The CEO of PURE insurance company (insurer to the wealthy) was asked about how they insure artwork and he said it always starts with where is it stored. Is it in a vault? a museum? is it on your front porch? the more CHANCES of peril, the higher the risk. I will say again.. WINE JUST SITS THERE. 1% or 2% premium cost is outrageous when framed in a risk/peril grid. Yet we pay it.. its probably just a gouging of the customer that will go on until disrupted. These ineficiences can last forever.. just look at mortgage Title Insurance.
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree and think you are oversimplifying the risk, at least from my point of view. Wine may sit there, but it does get moved around. It moves when it is loaded into the cellar, and it moves when it is taken out to drink. I pulled a bottle of 1995 Lafite one time to drink and dropped and broke it. Unfortunately, I didn't think to file an insurance claim at the time, but I will next time. When my cellar failed recently and I had to temporarily relocate my bottles to offsite storage, it involved moving every bottle out, and then back in. Two inconsequential bottles were broken in the exercise by the guys who did it (yes, they credited me). So it doesn't just sit there.

More importantly, while just sitting there, the cooling unit can and does fail. When that happens, you have the potential for a catastrophic loss, as I have experienced. In the end, the decision to insure or not insure is the degree to which you are comfortable absorbing the risk, versus transferring that risk to a counter party. In my case, I have a substantial investment in my wine collection, and I wish to offload the risk. I have been in the insurance and financial services industry for the past 37 years, so I think I have a pretty good handle on the pro's and con's of doing so. In my case, the decision was easy.
Jim Clary

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David Glasser
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#42 Post by David Glasser » October 18th, 2018, 5:14 pm

Nick Ryan wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 9:57 am
A.B ud res wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 9:15 am
WINE JUST SITS THERE. 1% or 2% premium cost is outrageous when framed in a risk/peril grid. Yet we pay it.. its probably just a gouging of the customer that will go on until disrupted. These ineficiences can last forever.. just look at mortgage Title Insurance.
Because there are so few large wine collections the risk cannot be quantified easily so insurers charge more to cover for said lack of knowledge. Ideally if there were millions of wine collections, rates would be adjusted by climate, by cooling solution, and so on. I am confident that I've reduced the risk of total loss of my collection to near-zero, only being vulnerable to catastrophic fire. If that happens, well, I'll take it as a sign from Cthulhu and stick to everyday wines...
I think Nick is on the right track here. In addition to lack of knowledge, the lack of large numbers means there is a smaller pool of insured wine cellars to spread the risk. The numbers are tiny compared to the number of homes insured. I’m not saying carriers aren’t taking advantage of relatively wealthy cellar owners. But numbers alone has to be one factor in the higher premiums.

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#43 Post by Robert Grenley » October 18th, 2018, 10:26 pm

Well, I simply want to make sure that, in the case of a catastrophic loss by fire (or earthquake, or theft...but perhaps most likely by fire), that my wine collection that I have spent years accumulating is protected. I am not sure I would put in a claim for dropping a bottle of Rousseau Chambertin unless I was sure it would not adversely affect my rates. But in a catastrophic situation, and given the current absurd replacement values of Burgundy, I want to be sure that I do not lose a few hundred thousand bucks worth of wine without proper compensation.
I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff.
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#44 Post by Clint S Q U I E R » October 19th, 2018, 9:56 am

A.B ud res wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 9:15 am
witih all due respect your assessment is not fair either. Insurance is about probability of hazard. Not at all "i'd imagine a fire, theft earthquake will affect a larger percentage..." Wine does not move, it cannot cause a damage to someone, it wont break. IT JUST SITS THERE. Insuring something that JUST SITS THERE should in theory be the cheapest peril to assure hands down. The above comparison to homeowners insurance is valid. A home has much more liability to it. people are walking in and out constantly. And since you mentioned artwork, The CEO of PURE insurance company (insurer to the wealthy) was asked about how they insure artwork and he said it always starts with where is it stored. Is it in a vault? a museum? is it on your front porch? the more CHANCES of peril, the higher the risk. I will say again.. WINE JUST SITS THERE. 1% or 2% premium cost is outrageous when framed in a risk/peril grid. Yet we pay it.. its probably just a gouging of the customer that will go on until disrupted. These ineficiences can last forever.. just look at mortgage Title Insurance.
Let's just completely ignore that wine is perishable while we're at it. I'd bet the main reason for wine insurance for many people, especially in the south is protection against power outage. And who is paying 1%-2% on their wine insurance? I've only seen it priced between 40 and 65 bps unless your collection doesn't hit the minimum insurable amount and you pay up regardless.

<3% of homeowner claims are due to liability issues. The rest are loss claims. These claims average ~$10,500 - a very small $ amount compared to total insured amount. If something bad happens in your cellar, except for the odd bottle drop, it's likely to affect your entire cellar. Claims are a much larger $ / total insured. You have to price the coverage on what you think the claim amount will be and homeowners insurance is by far the lowest claim %.

https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/fact ... -insurance

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andrew messenger
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#45 Post by andrew messenger » October 20th, 2018, 4:15 am

Over the years I was incorrectly told by State Farm my collection was covered under home contents. I must have asked them to look into the issue 5 separate times. Finally found out the home policy would cover a small amount of wine, around $25K. State Farm will write separate policies for wine up to 250K. I did not ask the cost.

I called AIG direct about changing all my insurance, because they will not just insure wine, and gave info for 20 minutes, received a quote in 48hrs. The most shocking thing was I was grossly overpaying for my homeowners. A real eyeopener!

Instead of giving the same info to 3-4 companies, I am going to an independent agent who deals with multiple companies. He is looking into Blue, AIG, Chubb, and Cincinnati. The agents commission comes from the insurance company. Going directly to any of the companies, gives no savings. Bundling all your insurances will same you 5-8% on total costs.

Any one know anything about or have any experiences with Cincinnati Insurance? So far the bundle of insurances is the most attractive.

I also spoke to an agent at AMWins, they did not get back yet.

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Victor Hong
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#46 Post by Victor Hong » October 20th, 2018, 4:33 am

People mistakenly believe that a verbal assurance of wine coverage is sufficient protection. The policy must specifically state so, in writing.
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Bruce Rudman
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#47 Post by Bruce Rudman » October 20th, 2018, 7:42 am

andrew messenger wrote:
October 20th, 2018, 4:15 am
Over the years I was incorrectly told by State Farm my collection was covered under home contents. I must have asked them to look into the issue 5 separate times. Finally found out the home policy would cover a small amount of wine, around $25K. State Farm will write separate policies for wine up to 250K. I did not ask the cost.

I called AIG direct about changing all my insurance, because they will not just insure wine, and gave info for 20 minutes, received a quote in 48hrs. The most shocking thing was I was grossly overpaying for my homeowners. A real eyeopener!

Instead of giving the same info to 3-4 companies, I am going to an independent agent who deals with multiple companies. He is looking into Blue, AIG, Chubb, and Cincinnati. The agents commission comes from the insurance company. Going directly to any of the companies, gives no savings. Bundling all your insurances will same you 5-8% on total costs.

Any one know anything about or have any experiences with Cincinnati Insurance? So far the bundle of insurances is the most attractive.

I also spoke to an agent at AMWins, they did not get back yet.
The AIG policy is a stand alone. Agent was contacted through Cellartracker. I did not change homeowners' insurance.
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andrew messenger
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#48 Post by andrew messenger » October 20th, 2018, 8:06 am

In the direct AIG group quote from last week it was specified that the wine cellar quote can not be stand alone,

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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#49 Post by scott davis » October 21st, 2018, 8:08 pm

andrew messenger wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 9:17 pm
Looked up Chubb and AIG. Both seem to be about 1/2% per year. So a $100,000 cellar is $500/yr. Not cheap.
This will vary based on the value of the insured cellar. For a stand-alone policy, insurers will have a minimum premium, which is usually a couple hundred dollars.
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Joe Mendez
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Re: Suggestions for wine cellar insurer

#50 Post by Joe Mendez » October 21st, 2018, 9:42 pm

Whats a good insurance to cover bottles at a wine storage facility?

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