I don't like QPR

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Sean Malloy
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I don't like QPR

#1 Post by Sean Malloy » September 22nd, 2018, 5:03 am

Another post got me thinking. I don't like the term QPR.

In QPR the R stands for ratio and therefore math is implied. Under that analysis, if you have a really nice $20 wine and then a different wine that is twice as good, really screaming good, for $50, the better "QPR" is the $20 wine. It is half as good and less than half the price. But is it the better value? The "cost" of value as you step up each increment of the quality ladder is higher. Obviously taking that step might cost money for the producer (use of barrel or bottle aging, or expensive concrete egg, or cost of grapes, or more expensive farming techniques, etc.). Or taking that step might not cost money (the winemaker is just more talented, or the fruit is excellent but not from a more expensive source, or whatever). But for me, I'd rather have the twice as good $50 bottle, even though the second half of the quality cost $30 instead of $20.

And then of course value becomes subjective based on your resources. Let's assume that for every single one of us spending 50 cents is completely immaterial from an economic perspective. Then assume that you are hot and thirsty and offered a choice of waters: (a) a room temperature glass for 1 cent; and (b) an awesome ice cold glass for 50 cents. Because 50 cents is meaningless to you, the ice cold glass is the better choice, even though the QPR is not there (assuming you like cold water better). It's not 50 times as good. The same applies to wine. If I have the resources to easily drink a $30 bottle without impacting my own economics, then I can do that every night instead of drinking the $10 bottles, and that is better for me and makes me happier even though the $30 bottles might not be three times as good. And up in the stratosphere of the truly wealthy, if a $10,000 bottle is only marginally better than a $200 bottle, it is still a better choice if $10,000 really means nothing.

I'm also not implying that less expensive bottles can't be better than more expensive bottles. Of course they can. And of course the perception of wine quality is personal and subjective. Barefoot Moscato may be considered a worse wine than Rinaldi Barolo to most of us, but I can guarantee that my sister in law would consider the Moscato the better value even if they both cost $6.

So I like to use "value" rather than QPR, and I often like to use "value for me" rather than value. Maybe it's just my sense of language and most of us use QPR as a stand in for value, but I think value is the better term. Thoughts?

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Re: I don't like QPR

#2 Post by Matthew Brown » September 22nd, 2018, 5:32 am

You aren't alone. Nobody likes Queens Park Rangers.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#3 Post by Chris Foley » September 22nd, 2018, 6:15 am

Sean Malloy wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:03 am
Another post got me thinking. I don't like the term QPR.
...
Thoughts?
Your math is flawed. Any wine I've been willing to say offered twice the pleasure of my favorite $20 wines has been priced in excess of $100.
Compared to my previous passion, sports car racing, I would say wine in general has poor QPR - especially when one considers the memories created by the activity. Even most of my worst race events have offered me more pleasure than my best wine experiences, and a single race would amortize at $1000+ when all costs were taken into account.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#4 Post by Gerhard P. » September 22nd, 2018, 6:41 am

I don´t want to contradict you, and generally I would agree, but
the major problem is: what is "twice" as good? or "three times" as good?

Some here boycott points (out of 100) to measure wine quality - but they have their virtues.
At least we can say that a 95 point wine (in the eyes of the rater) is better than a 90 point wine ...
but is 95p twice as good as 90 points - or only 5% better?

>Obviously taking that step might cost money for the producer (use of barrel or bottle aging, or expensive concrete egg, or cost of grapes, or more expensive farming techniques, etc.).<

In quite a lot of cases the terroir where the grapes are grown (and deliver - hopefully - better quality) is simply more expensive, often much more expensive ...
Generally I think to buy a wine that is 3/4/5 points better you often have to pay twice as much if not more ...
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Re: I don't like QPR

#5 Post by johnbonds » September 22nd, 2018, 6:46 am

How about a favorite term used by a friend of mine... "Bang for buck" or BFB?

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Re: I don't like QPR

#6 Post by Bdklein » September 22nd, 2018, 6:51 am

johnbonds wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 6:46 am
How about a favorite term used by a friend of mine... "Bang for buck" or BFB?
Last time I did "bang for buck" I couldn't stop itching for a week.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#7 Post by Brian Tuite » September 22nd, 2018, 6:59 am

Sean Malloy wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:03 am
Another post got me thinking. I don't like the term QPR.

In QPR the R stands for ratio relationship.

FIFY! Changes the conversation a bit doesn’t it?
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Re: I don't like QPR

#8 Post by Joe B » September 22nd, 2018, 7:22 am

It’s not linear. More like the Richter scale. Exponential.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#9 Post by Jim Stewart » September 22nd, 2018, 7:33 am

Brian Tuite wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 6:59 am
Sean Malloy wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:03 am
Another post got me thinking. I don't like the term QPR.

In QPR the R stands for ratio relationship.

FIFY! Changes the conversation a bit doesn’t it?
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Re: I don't like QPR

#10 Post by ERPark » September 22nd, 2018, 7:50 am

Please start a movement against QPR wines. Would leave more for the rest of us.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#11 Post by Scott G r u n e r » September 22nd, 2018, 7:57 am

This is all a bit pedantic for me. Tomato Tomahto.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#12 Post by Markus S » September 22nd, 2018, 8:14 am

Well I don't like it either, but I have to live with it. [drinks.gif]
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Re: I don't like QPR

#13 Post by Ian Sutton » September 22nd, 2018, 9:01 am

The easiest maths is: If I have $x to spend, which appeals most to me? It might be a single bottle of a legendary wine, 3 fancy bottles, 12 good examples, 36 basic cuvees or 100 bottles of plonk.

Each to their own and FWIW, apart from trying it out myself with a brief play at adding "price I'd pay for another bottle vs. price I paid for that bottle" to my tasting notes (e.g. $12 / $9), I don't recall anyone ever trying to quantify QPR (or VFM). Well not since some posts (IIRC) on E-bob where someone was genuinely keen to find the highest RMP points for the lowest price, and taking that rather too seriously.

For me, the ratio above (what you'd pay for another bottle / Price paid or market price) is better than trying to match to these hypothetical 100 or 20 point scales. Keep it simple.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#14 Post by David Cooper » September 22nd, 2018, 9:29 am

Only a modern Bordeaux fan would hate QPR wines.

BTW I think it was the fake turf that caused everyone to hate Rangers.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#15 Post by Scott Brunson » September 22nd, 2018, 9:42 am

johnbonds wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 6:46 am
How about a favorite term used by a friend of mine... "Bang for buck" or BFB?
or "Bang for Dollar" [whistle.gif]
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Re: I don't like QPR

#16 Post by Sean Malloy » September 22nd, 2018, 10:16 am

Matthew Brown wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:32 am
You aren't alone. Nobody likes Queens Park Rangers.
Agreed. Spurs all the way.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#17 Post by Sean Malloy » September 22nd, 2018, 10:18 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 6:41 am
I don´t want to contradict you, and generally I would agree, but
the major problem is: what is "twice" as good? or "three times" as good?

Some here boycott points (out of 100) to measure wine quality - but they have their virtues.
At least we can say that a 95 point wine (in the eyes of the rater) is better than a 90 point wine ...
but is 95p twice as good as 90 points - or only 5% better?

>Obviously taking that step might cost money for the producer (use of barrel or bottle aging, or expensive concrete egg, or cost of grapes, or more expensive farming techniques, etc.).<

In quite a lot of cases the terroir where the grapes are grown (and deliver - hopefully - better quality) is simply more expensive, often much more expensive ...
Generally I think to buy a wine that is 3/4/5 points better you often have to pay twice as much if not more ...
I agree with just about all of this, and that's a big part of my point.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#18 Post by Sean Malloy » September 22nd, 2018, 10:20 am

Brian Tuite wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 6:59 am
Sean Malloy wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:03 am
Another post got me thinking. I don't like the term QPR.

In QPR the R stands for ratio relationship.

FIFY! Changes the conversation a bit doesn’t it?
Sure does. If we could all agree that's what QPR means I'd be a happy user of the term.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#19 Post by Sean Malloy » September 22nd, 2018, 10:22 am

ERPark wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 7:50 am
Please start a movement against QPR wines. Would leave more for the rest of us.
Ha! I love good value wines, I just don't like the term.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#20 Post by A. So » September 22nd, 2018, 10:38 am

The only variable is P since Q=93
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Re: I don't like QPR

#21 Post by Mattstolz » September 22nd, 2018, 10:47 am

I like thinking it as QPRelationship better as well.

in my eyes, i think of it more relatively anyways. a $50 wine can have a great QPR if it tastes like a wine that should cost $100. a $20 wine wouldnt have as good a QPR if it only tasted like a $25 wine. I agree with above that the issue is that the term is used different ways by different people. a lot of times its used to mean "this is a good inexpensive wine" which is not really how i interpret it.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#22 Post by Alan Eden » September 22nd, 2018, 10:57 am

QPR were hated because of those stupid hooped or quartered shirts they wore
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Re: I don't like QPR

#23 Post by Brian Tuite » September 22nd, 2018, 12:15 pm

Mattstolz wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 10:47 am
I like thinking it as QPRelationship better as well.

in my eyes, i think of it more relatively anyways. a $50 wine can have a great QPR if it tastes like a wine that should cost $100. a $20 wine wouldnt have as good a QPR if it only tasted like a $25 wine. I agree with above that the issue is that the term is used different ways by different people. a lot of times its used to mean "this is a good inexpensive wine" which is not really how i interpret it.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#24 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 22nd, 2018, 2:03 pm

Way too literal. It ain’t no math formula. It’s a loose term. I round up on math anyway.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#25 Post by Joe Raymond » September 22nd, 2018, 2:08 pm

Wow don’t over think it :)
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Re: I don't like QPR

#26 Post by Matthew Brown » September 22nd, 2018, 2:11 pm

Sean Malloy wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 10:16 am
Matthew Brown wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:32 am
You aren't alone. Nobody likes Queens Park Rangers.
Agreed. Spurs all the way.
Let's not get hysterical now....
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Re: I don't like QPR

#27 Post by ky1em!ttskus » September 22nd, 2018, 3:12 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 2:03 pm
Way too literal. It ain’t no math formula. It’s a loose term. I round up on math anyway.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#28 Post by Scott Brunson » September 22nd, 2018, 3:50 pm

ky1em!ttskus wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 3:12 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 2:03 pm
Way too literal. It ain’t no math formula. It’s a loose term. I round up on math anyway.
We know you're an attorney, man. No need to keep reminding us. neener
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Re: I don't like QPR

#29 Post by Steve Slatcher » September 22nd, 2018, 4:26 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 9:01 am
The easiest maths is: If I have $x to spend, which appeals most to me? It might be a single bottle of a legendary wine, 3 fancy bottles, 12 good examples, 36 basic cuvees or 100 bottles of plonk.
Exactly. And sometimes it's more a question of what works best for the occasion, or to complement wines I already have. If I bought a few cases of cheaper wine last week, now I am probably looking to buy something better.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#30 Post by David Glasser » September 22nd, 2018, 5:17 pm

I use QPR and value interchangeably.

I don’t consider QPR to be a strict ratio. I wouldn’t be able to say if a wine is 50% or 60% better than another. I’m not that precise and it’s too subjective.

The one advantage of QPR over value? Less keystrokes.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#31 Post by A. So » September 22nd, 2018, 5:25 pm

David Glasser wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:17 pm
I use QPR and value interchangeably.

I don’t consider QPR to be a strict ratio. I wouldn’t be able to say if a wine is 50% or 60% better than another. I’m not that precise and it’s too subjective.

The one advantage of QPR over value? Less keystrokes.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#32 Post by Al Osterheld » September 22nd, 2018, 7:19 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 2:03 pm
Way too literal. It ain’t no math formula. It’s a loose term. I round up on math anyway.
Math is often precise, and generally at least quantifiable. Tasting note points are subjective and often BS. Mixing the two is similar to mixing Cherry Coke with Baudry Chinon. Don't do it.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#33 Post by johnbonds » September 22nd, 2018, 7:52 pm

Just buy stuff that you like where you think the cost of the wine is worth it. All of us have different budgets and tastes and as others have said, QPR is just a way of saying that something is worth it to an individual.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#34 Post by GregT » September 22nd, 2018, 8:05 pm

In QPR the R stands for ratio and therefore math is implied
That's what kills it for me too. I hated math in school.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#35 Post by Al Osterheld » September 22nd, 2018, 8:59 pm

That's what kills it for me too. I hated math in school.
I loved math in school, and in life for that matter. But, that's what kills it for me, too.
Just buy stuff that you like where you think the cost of the wine is worth it.
Yes, absolutely agree! Some of those wines will be relatively cheap, some not. But, I don't buy cheaper wines I like less just because they are cheaper.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#36 Post by Sean Malloy » September 23rd, 2018, 5:08 am

Yeah guys, I think many of you are thinking I'm making a point I'm not. Yes, drink what you like and for the price you are willing to pay. I just don't like using the wrong language. For those of you who replied that this is overthinking it and/or pedantic or whatever, you're probably spot on.I'll continue to use value (and variety instead of varietal where appropriate, etc.) If that makes me a nerd, great. Nerds are awesome.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#37 Post by David Glasser » September 23rd, 2018, 5:15 am

A. So wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:25 pm
David Glasser wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:17 pm
I use QPR and value interchangeably.

I don’t consider QPR to be a strict ratio. I wouldn’t be able to say if a wine is 50% or 60% better than another. I’m not that precise and it’s too subjective.

The one advantage of QPR over value? Less keystrokes.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#38 Post by Ian Sutton » September 23rd, 2018, 5:34 am

FWIW I take greater issue with the Q in QPR, as I think many wine enthusiasts have bought too strongly into the idea that a single score is a measure of absolute quality. $40 might be what I think a wine might be worth, but others may feel a fair price for the same wine is anywhere between $10 and $100.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#39 Post by Bruce Leiser_owitz » September 23rd, 2018, 5:40 am

David Glasser wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 5:15 am
A. So wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:25 pm
David Glasser wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:17 pm
I use QPR and value interchangeably.

I don’t consider QPR to be a strict ratio. I wouldn’t be able to say if a wine is 50% or 60% better than another. I’m not that precise and it’s too subjective.

The one advantage of QPR over value? Less keystrokes.
Image
Less has fewer keystrokes. neener
The QPR of keystrokes, if you will.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#40 Post by Bruce Leiser_owitz » September 23rd, 2018, 5:50 am

When making decisions about either buying or drinking from your cellar, I don't think anyone punches up numbers on a calculator to make a ratio(nal) decision.

Early on, though, people often default to using professional scores as the measure of "quality." So if you have Cabernets A and B both rated 95 points and Cabernet A is $100 vs. $50 for Cabernet B,
then there's a temptation to think that Cabernet B is the better QPR or value. It takes experience to see the flaws in that logic.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#41 Post by Brian Tuite » September 23rd, 2018, 6:59 am

Ian Sutton wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 5:34 am
FWIW I take greater issue with the Q in QPR, as I think many wine enthusiasts have bought too strongly into the idea that a single score is a measure of absolute quality. $40 might be what I think a wine might be worth, but others may feel a fair price for the same wine is anywhere between $10 and $100.
On the contrary, the way I look at it is that most wines fit into a price category whether that is set by the winery or the market itself. A wine that outperforms others in the same category I consider a QPR in relationship to its peers.

Someone’s budget, or what they consider entry, premium and ultra-premium shouldn't come into play.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#42 Post by brigcampbell » September 23rd, 2018, 7:18 am

Joe B wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 7:22 am
It’s not linear. More like the Richter scale. Exponential.
Almost, it's the inverse. Richter scale is logarithmic.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#43 Post by GregT » September 23rd, 2018, 7:28 am

(and variety instead of varietal where appropriate, etc.) If that makes me literate, great.
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Re: I don't like QPR

#44 Post by Ian Sutton » September 23rd, 2018, 7:54 am

Brian Tuite wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 6:59 am
Ian Sutton wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 5:34 am
FWIW I take greater issue with the Q in QPR, as I think many wine enthusiasts have bought too strongly into the idea that a single score is a measure of absolute quality. $40 might be what I think a wine might be worth, but others may feel a fair price for the same wine is anywhere between $10 and $100.
On the contrary, the way I look at it is that most wines fit into a price category whether that is set by the winery or the market itself. A wine that outperforms others in the same category I consider a QPR in relationship to its peers.
Judged by yourself, and your own taste preferences, of course. We are not in disagreement.

However if we are picking on the semantics of 'ratio', then the semantics of measurable 'quality' is for me much more flawed. Indeed I might drink the same wine 2-3 weeks later, with different food, setting, mood, and end up having a very different perception on how enjoyable the wine was and how much I'd pay for another bottle of it.

Taking the score of a stranger (e.g. a self-appointed wine critic) as a the measure of quality, is a problem that has blighted our hobby in recent decades (though it has been present for much longer).
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Re: I don't like QPR

#45 Post by Brian Tuite » September 23rd, 2018, 8:52 am

Take it for what it's worth to you. I know whose palates I align with and I trust their judgement. Conversely I can't take advice from a stranger. If you’re going to discount everyones opinion but your own then this forum sure doesn’t provide much value. [berserker.gif]
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Mattstolz
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Re: I don't like QPR

#46 Post by Mattstolz » September 23rd, 2018, 8:58 am

Ian Sutton wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 7:54 am


Judged by yourself, and your own taste preferences, of course. We are not in disagreement.

However if we are picking on the semantics of 'ratio', then the semantics of measurable 'quality' is for me much more flawed. Indeed I might drink the same wine 2-3 weeks later, with different food, setting, mood, and end up having a very different perception on how enjoyable the wine was and how much I'd pay for another bottle of it.

Taking the score of a stranger (e.g. a self-appointed wine critic) as a the measure of quality, is a problem that has blighted our hobby in recent decades (though it has been present for much longer).
i guess ive always taken QPR as more of an internal measure than an external one. as in, its a good QPR for me when i tasted it. this eliminates a couple things being discussed in this thread: the subjectiveness of a taste and the fact that different price points mean different things to different people.

even using the term "value" instead of QPR is subjective. for some people, the $30-40 i spend on a weeknight wine is their splurge price. they wouldnt be happy if they got a $35 wine that doesnt blow their mind. for some, $35 is what they would spend on a cooking wine. they are gonna think its a great value if its even drinkable.

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Bryan Carr
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Re: I don't like QPR

#47 Post by Bryan Carr » September 26th, 2018, 4:39 pm

QPR isn't linear, it has more to do with marginal utility or elasticity of price/enjoyment, for example, if you'd rather have the $50 wine that's twice as good as the $20 wine, it doesn't tell me that you're crazy, it tells me that your marginal utility of enjoyment is larger than your marginal utility of money up to that point, i.e. your expectation of receiving enjoyment increases more slowly than your willingness to pay for said enjoyment. Eventually, unless you're Jeff Bezos, this relationship will invert once you hit your pain threshold for cost, which is is why I don't drink tons of Burgundy.

Nerds indeed.
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Chris Seiber
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Re: I don't like QPR

#48 Post by Chris Seiber » September 26th, 2018, 5:20 pm

“So I like to use "value" rather than QPR, and I often like to use "value for me" rather than value.”

That’s cool, but you’re just saying the same thing with a different word. That’s all QPR means. Nobody is actually doing a math problem to figure it out.

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Re: I don't like QPR

#49 Post by Bryan Carr » September 27th, 2018, 8:45 am

Chris Seiber wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 5:20 pm
Nobody is actually doing a math problem to figure it out.
THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK! *pushes up glasses, rolls out chalkboard
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R M Kriete
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Re: I don't like QPR

#50 Post by R M Kriete » September 27th, 2018, 12:06 pm

I was told there would be no math!

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