Southern Rhone Lovers... Where Can They Be Found

I’ve been trying to find ongoing conversations about the Southern Rhone and it’s producers, but seem to come up empty handed between the message boards that I frequent. Way back in the day the Parker Boards were a good place but it’s been forever since I’ve been a part of them. As for the others, there seem to be a lot more Southern Rhone haters than lovers on these forums lately.

For me, the Rhone (North and South) are my favorite regions after Barolo, Barbaresco and Tuscany. Does anyone know of a place where like minded individuals are chatting about these topics? Seems there’s a lot to talk about and discuss with vintages, changing styles of producers, different villages, and the region as a whole.

Eric. I agree that there seems to be a bit of a void when it comes to the Southern Rhone. As you say the Parker board used to be the place for Southern Rhone talk especially when the board was open to all and RMP was still doing the reviews and people like Jeb Dunnick and Brad Coelho were regular posters. The long forgotten Joe Baalamati board was also a place with regular Southern Rhone talk.

Could it be a change in style in the region that has lead to a lot of enthusiasts moving away from the wines, leading to less discussion on boards like this? The Rhone is the region I have the most notes for on CT but I rarely buy bottles of CdP or Gigondas anymore.

Start one and see if you can spark one.

I do think there are enough lovers of Rhone wines here … indeed there are also some “haters” (or better: “critics”) … but I can simply ignore them … or make my own statement.
I was in the Rhone last week … and I´ve tasted magnificent stuff … 2016 is simply awesome in the South … and outstanding in the North …

I think he has.

I totally agree. I’ve been tasting a lot of the CdP tradition bottles from 2016 and liking a lot of what I’m finding. When I think back to tasting the young 2007s I would be scratching my head trying to figure out how those wines were going to age into the scores that had been placed on them-- Same with 2009. In fact I started becoming a fan of the good but not great vintages (2012). However, now I’m finding a lot more to like and as I taste the 2016s they’re showing much livelier personalities than past highly hyped years.

Also Gigondas seems to have really stepped up its game.

You’re bringing up some seriously good memories. Is Brad still around?

Curious if you feel like the wines are starting to come back around to the style that we liked? Have you been tasting recent vintages?

Still love my Rhone wines which make up about 8.5% of my cellar (add Rhone ranger style wines SQN, Alban, Saxum, Cayuse-if you include them in the % it’s MUCH higher). I too visited Cdp and N Rhone 2 summers ago and it was an amazing trip. After 4 less than top vintages 2015 and 2016 have come roaring back to top form. I’ve held off on 2015 because 2016 is a birth year and I’ve am a buyer again. JD scores are quite high and there seems to be some grade inflation, as discussed in Jim Dove’s thread, but Joe C and JD are both giving similar high scores and I like the style I am in. So far I’ve purchased 6 packs of:
Usseglio MA
Mordorree Reine des Bois
Prefert Colombis

I will buy more if I can find them at decent prices including Prefert AF/CG, Barroche Pure, Pegau, St Jean Ex Machina and Pegau. I have visited all of these domaines and I am a fan. Curious about Donjon and a few others but we will see.

Don’t worry what others think-post away

Eric. The only recent vintage I have tasted was a 2013 Pegau because I bought 6, and that was my last SR purchase. I think Brad C disappeared years ago. Those are some pretty good memories. We spent 2 weeks in a gite in Sablet during the vendage in 2010. The last day we took the bottles to the recycling bin and there were over 50, pretty good for 6 people.

Peter. I think of JD as a sort of cheerleader for the Southern Rhone. That being said I think his notes are of more interest then his scores.

Long-time Rhone lover here. First Northern, then Southern. I read all of the Rhone posts here with interest even though I don’t often respond.

Interest in regions tends to wax and wane, both for me personally and for the community in general. Things go in and out of style. Sometimes for obvious reasons like critic/KOL attention (e.g. Parker’s “discovery” of the Rhone and his promotion of Oz importers like Grateful Palate) or changes in style (e.g. 2007 as poster child for the shift to riper CduP). Other times a region just seems to slip under the radar for no good reason.

My palate has shifted away from ripe Grenache, so I fell a little out of love until I learned to be more selective. I compensated by refocusing on Northern Rhone wines, finding it took some effort to look for replacements for old favorites that had skyrocketed in price.

I still have a soft spot for Rhone wines, though we don’t drink them as often as we used to. CdR and CdP were the wines that started us down the path of drinking French and Italian wine. I still very much enjoy Pegau, Beaucastel, Vieux Donjon, Bois de Boursan CdP, but more so the less heralded and leaner years. We also still buy Clos du Mont Olivet Cotes du Rhone VV to keep around as an everyday, inexpensive wine.

All of these wines are enjoyable, but for some reason, I don’t find myself looking at maps, reading about the producers, and spending as much mental energy on them as I do on Italian wines.

As very much a newcomer, it was a trip to the Northern Rhone and a day tour with a wine maker which started me collecting wine, although I must admit other than Beaucastel, I know next to nothing about the Southern Rhone [scratch.gif].

Time to crack the Robinson Atlas and get some knowledge…

Although I steer away from Grenache-based wines for personal reasons, in 2016 I was in Provence with jaunts toward CNdP from mid-August to the beginning of September (beginning of harvest in Provence). The weather was just perfect (not too hot, not too cold, lots of sunshine, good lows at night), and based on what I investigated at the time, I believe it continued into the main CNdP harvest a little later in September. Winemakers I spoke to were happy. It seemed like the set-up for a potentially excellent crop and an excellent vintage of ripe fruit with acidity preserved.

I do agree that the scores seem high, but as I look to all of the other critics, plus or minus a few producers, the scores seem to be pretty much in line. If you add 2 - 3 points onto every Josh Raynolds review, then you basically have similar ranges to JD, WA and WS. With all of them agreeing on so many wines, It’s been hard not to buy in. Usually someone is a naysayer, but with 2016 (for the most part) its across the board. The only thing that Josh had mentioned is that, from a long-term aging perspective, the 2015s have the upper hand.
For me, I’ve been a buyer of 2016:

Saint Préfert Charles Giraud (I should buy Colombis but the stash has gotten large)
Domaine de Marcoux Châteauneuf-du-Pape Vieilles Vignes (couldn’t help it, everyone seems to love it)
Domaine de Marcoux Châteauneuf-du-Pape (tasted and LOVED IT)
Giraud Châteauneuf-du-Pape Tradition (unanimous praise)
Giraud Châteauneuf-du-Pape Les Gallimardes (unanimous praise)
Giraud Châteauneuf-du-Pape Cuvée les Grenaches de Pierre (unanimous praise)
Clos du Mont-Olivet Châteauneuf-du-Pape Papet (Totally Jebs fault that I bought this, even if it’s 1/2 as good as he said then it should be amazing.
Clos du Caillou Châteauneuf-du-Pape Domaine du Caillou Les Quartz (I have a soft spot for these)
Clos du Caillou Châteauneuf-du-Pape La Réserve (unanimous praise)
Roger Sabon Reserve (connsistant 94-95 between everyone)

I think that as long as you know the critics palate, the scores can be averaged out between the other critics.

What I am happy about with the Rhone, is at least the good or not-so-good vintages get lower scores. That can’t be said for a lot of regions. There are areas in Italy where you’d never know they had a bad vintage by the scores for the Usual Suspects.

It’s easy to get a good read on these just by grabbing some of the entry-level stuff. The Saint Prefert CdP tradition is so pretty. Marcoux is like liquid velvet, Giraud has depths yet unrevealed, Janasse does a wonderful job of communicating the house style at a fraction of the price.

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I jumped deep into S. Rhone when I first got “into” wine. The problem was, that was cir. 2007 and Parker’s stick was large and he was swinging it hard. I like fruit-forward wines, too!

So, since that debacle (which was entirely my own fault), I have bought almost no S. Rhone wines. I used to really like Gig. and Vac., too. Maybe I should dip my toes back in…

Nope. Not for me. We all make choices — to each, her/his own.

Personally, I think this is happening to a decent extent. I’ve been pretty happy with the handful of 15 CdPs I’ve tasted. I haven’t felt like they were too sleek like the 07s were on release and I wouldn’t be surprised if I end up happier with wines from recent vintages down the road rather than what I found in 07s.

Eric - I think a couple of things happened. Those of us who used to by wines from the S. Rhone probably still do, but different ones. I haven’t bought a CdP in a few years. They changed dramatically, trying to make wines from a single variety rather than blends, and also single vineyards, in attempts to garner big Parker scores. And I don’t think the influence of Cambie on so many producers was a positive development. That all led to huge price increases. Used to be you could get a pretty good Gigondas, Vacqueyras, etc., for around twenty bucks, maybe less. I’ve seen Gigondas for around $100 recently.

I liked 1998 and 2000 but with 2003, which I found alcoholic and flabby, and especially 2007, which was called the best vintage in viticultural history, I lost interest, far preferring the wines from 2008 and even 2006. I remember tasting many dozens of the 2007s and wondering WTF.

Finally, the good folks in CA stepped up their interest in some of those grapes. Saxum and Alban really only came on big in the late 1990s and early 2000s and a lot of other people either got noticed or started working with the so-called “Rhone” grapes. Since this board has a lot of newer people who tend to get excited about getting on mailing lists and discussing their allocations, I think a lot of them may have no real familiarity with the Rhone wines either from the north or south. I was unfamiliar with both Saxum and Alban the first time I tried either. In neither case did I want any in my cellar.

But I’d extend beyond the S. Rhone - there is interesting wine being made all over south France. I’ve had really good Carignan and Syrah from little-known producers who happen to have a great vineyard on the top of a mountain or overlooking the coast. It’s kind of like some of the producers on the far west of Sonoma - Cargasacchi and Failla for example.

Same thing is happening with the N. Rhone grapes vis a vis California - there’s some seriously good Syrah being made these days and I’m liking some of the Viognier and Roussanne and Marsanne. Even, oddly enough, the SQN versions.

I love Grenache when done well. You’re going to get alcohol but the trick is dialing back the associated heat, and when you do that, the south of France can make utterly delicious wines. I still drink them - never stopped really, just pick more carefully now.