Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

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Victor Hong
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#101 Post by Victor Hong » December 23rd, 2018, 8:24 pm

It would critically prejudice the criminal case. Treat this thread as discoverable.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#102 Post by ClarkstonMark » December 23rd, 2018, 8:38 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 6:32 pm
Paying the fence for stolen goods does not paint the complainant in a particularly good light.

Something seems very fishy here, beyond the storage place.
Yes, I think Todd should clarify if ...
1. The retailer admitted he bought wines that he knew were stolen
2. The retailer bought wines that he later found out were stolen
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#103 Post by Victor Hong » December 23rd, 2018, 8:47 pm

Todd Laubach wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 7:29 am
Hi Jason - I agree with you for the most part. The maddening thing is that there is a very prominent store in DC that admitted to me and my brother that he had bought our wines from Mr. Holder. His resolution was to sell them back to us at his cost. While I understand the owners position, he admitted he was in possession of wine he knew was stolen. The admirable thing to have done would have been to give in back to us. We are not talking a large sums of money.
Having been pressured during my career to commit or abet potential federal felonies, I can only ask you to defer to law enforcement agencies on the interpretation of that retailer proposal. My advice is not to internalize the matter.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#104 Post by Todd Laubach » January 4th, 2019, 8:52 am

I apologize for not responding earlier. I have been busy with the Holidays. The "retailer" claimed he did not know the wines were stolen at the time of purchase. Regardless if the "retailer" did not know beforehand, I found their resolution preposterous. They wanted me to pay twice for wines that were mine?

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#105 Post by Jay Miller » January 4th, 2019, 10:39 am

lleichtman wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 6:29 pm
Todd Laubach wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 7:29 am
Hi Jason - I agree with you for the most part. The maddening thing is that there is a very prominent store in DC that admitted to me and my brother that he had bought our wines from Mr. Holder. His resolution was to sell them back to us at his cost. While I understand the owners position, he admitted he was in possession of wine he knew was stolen. The admirable thing to have done would have been to give in back to us. We are not talking a large sums of money.
Being a "fence" is a crime and should be treated as such. This is as reprehensible as Holder. pileon
If I understand correctly he did not know it was stolen when he purchased it. He has since discovered that fact so by giving it back he would be out the money he paid in what was then good faith. That said, I think that is exactly what he should do.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#106 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » January 4th, 2019, 10:41 am

Pretty sure anyone in possession of stolen goods needs to give up said items. Their recourse is through the person from whom said items were purchased, not the rightful owner.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#107 Post by Victor Hong » January 4th, 2019, 10:50 am

Todd Laubach wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 8:52 am
I apologize for not responding earlier. I have been busy with the Holidays. The "retailer" claimed he did not know the wines were stolen at the time of purchase. Regardless if the "retailer" did not know beforehand, I found their resolution preposterous. They wanted me to pay twice for wines that were mine?
Knowingly seeking to sell stolen goods is a felony, even if the possession was gained unknowingly. The holder must turn them over to law enforcement agencies for proper resolution, and not directly to either a third-party buyer or even the original owner.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#108 Post by Mike Evans » January 4th, 2019, 12:35 pm

Victor Hong wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 10:50 am
Todd Laubach wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 8:52 am
I apologize for not responding earlier. I have been busy with the Holidays. The "retailer" claimed he did not know the wines were stolen at the time of purchase. Regardless if the "retailer" did not know beforehand, I found their resolution preposterous. They wanted me to pay twice for wines that were mine?
Knowingly seeking to sell stolen goods is a felony, even if the possession was gained unknowingly. The holder must turn them over to law enforcement agencies for proper resolution, and not directly to either a third-party buyer or even the original owner.
Have any citations for that assertion?

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#109 Post by Victor Hong » January 4th, 2019, 12:46 pm

Mike Evans wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 12:35 pm
Victor Hong wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 10:50 am
Todd Laubach wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 8:52 am
I apologize for not responding earlier. I have been busy with the Holidays. The "retailer" claimed he did not know the wines were stolen at the time of purchase. Regardless if the "retailer" did not know beforehand, I found their resolution preposterous. They wanted me to pay twice for wines that were mine?
Knowingly seeking to sell stolen goods is a felony, even if the possession was gained unknowingly. The holder must turn them over to law enforcement agencies for proper resolution, and not directly to either a third-party buyer or even the original owner.
Have any citations for that assertion?
18 U.S. Code Chapter 113 - STOLEN PROPERTY
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#110 Post by Neal.Mollen » January 4th, 2019, 12:53 pm

Mike Evans wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 12:35 pm
Victor Hong wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 10:50 am
Todd Laubach wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 8:52 am
I apologize for not responding earlier. I have been busy with the Holidays. The "retailer" claimed he did not know the wines were stolen at the time of purchase. Regardless if the "retailer" did not know beforehand, I found their resolution preposterous. They wanted me to pay twice for wines that were mine?
Knowingly seeking to sell stolen goods is a felony, even if the possession was gained unknowingly. The holder must turn them over to law enforcement agencies for proper resolution, and not directly to either a third-party buyer or even the original owner.
Have any citations for that assertion?
LOL, Victor sure does know a lot of law.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#111 Post by Victor Hong » January 5th, 2019, 12:43 pm

Even if a party innocently and unknowingly bought stolen goods, it generally cannot just give them directly and freely to the theft victim. Why? First, law enforcement agencies likely have a superseding right to those goods, even if temporarily, as criminal case evidence. Second, if an insurer has paid a loss claim to the victim, then it has a rightful first-priority lien on those goods for financial recovery.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#112 Post by Tom G l a s g o w » January 5th, 2019, 2:00 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 12:53 pm
Mike Evans wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 12:35 pm
Victor Hong wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 10:50 am


Knowingly seeking to sell stolen goods is a felony, even if the possession was gained unknowingly. The holder must turn them over to law enforcement agencies for proper resolution, and not directly to either a third-party buyer or even the original owner.
Have any citations for that assertion?
LOL, Victor sure does know a lot of law.
Funny isn’t it? Try getting an answer from an actual lawyer.

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#113 Post by Dan Kravitz » January 5th, 2019, 6:56 pm

I've only met Victor briefly, but from what I know he has an impressive and impeccable record in dealing with delicate legal matters.

I wonder how the law applies if the stolen goods are perishable. Can somebody whose goods are stolen petition the court to recover them more quickly if they may lose value over time?

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#114 Post by Randy Bowman » January 5th, 2019, 7:29 pm

Each state has different laws. If this happened here in CA, the victim should call police to the store to recover stolen property and initiate a criminal investigation. The wine would be seized and placed in evidence until needed, adjudicated by the court or transferred to the prosecuting agency, if it goes federal. (Your wine sat upright in the corner of an evidence room with minimal temperature control for 3 months to 5 years). So if the court orders the wine returned to the original owner in lieu of restitution you're screwed.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#115 Post by Russell A » January 8th, 2019, 8:07 am

The other problem here is, I was told there is no way of actually proving that the wine is yours. The vintage wines have no serial numbers or marking that you can say what 10 bottles is yours out of the 30 that they have in stock. Also most of it was being sold as soon as it hit the market. As some have stated, if any of it could have been recovered it would be in a evidence locker stored how ever they wanted. Do I think there should be repercussions to the stores that bought, Most definitely. Basically it comes down to, what is the easiest way for the FBI or whatever Agency to prosecute. There are... or I should say many, many more charges that could have been given to Bill Holder, but it would have taken a lot longer to get to this point. The sad thing is, he is only looking at 5-7 years for what he did to all of us....
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#116 Post by Victor Hong » January 8th, 2019, 9:47 am

He will go from the locker business to the......locker business.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#117 Post by Thomas H » January 26th, 2019, 12:53 pm

I just discovered this thread today after trying unsuccessfully to contact Holder about my wine. I’m currently in a state of shock about the entire situation and have read all of the posts to date. Todd I hate to say this but I had more wine stored there than you did. Is there anything left or has it all “disappeared?”

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#118 Post by Victor Hong » January 26th, 2019, 1:18 pm

Thomas H wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 12:53 pm
I just discovered this thread today after trying unsuccessfully to contact Holder about my wine. I’m currently in a state of shock about the entire situation and have read all of the posts to date. Todd I hate to say this but I had more wine stored there than you did. Is there anything left or has it all “disappeared?”
So sorry.
File a police report, contact the FBI, and submit a claim to your insurer, as soon as possible.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#119 Post by Thomas H » January 26th, 2019, 6:35 pm

Bottom line nothing is left of our wine that we stored with this SOB Holder? Does anyone know where he is currently?

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#120 Post by Russell A » January 28th, 2019, 2:47 pm

Thomas H wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 6:35 pm
Bottom line nothing is left of our wine that we stored with this SOB Holder? Does anyone know where he is currently?
I do know where he is at the moment, they finally arrested him today. His first apperance was this afternoon, I and one other was present. The Judge released him into the custody of his wife. His next apperance will be soon, and I will keep everyone updated.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#121 Post by Todd Laubach » January 30th, 2019, 8:17 am

Thomas H wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 6:35 pm
Bottom line nothing is left of our wine that we stored with this SOB Holder? Does anyone know where he is currently?
Hi Thomas - Unfortunately I was informed that there was basically not much wine left when a couple of people got access in September. Apparently, Bill was not paying rent and the landlord was taking over the space at the end of September. You might have some luck if you contact the landlord which is a large real estate company based in Maryland. I would tell you to contact your insurance company that you insured your wine with or your insurance company if you have home owners or rental policy. People have been able to recover monetary compensation through these means.

You need to contact John Fagan with the FBI out of Annapolis, MD and let him know what was stolen and what is the current value. I can PM the information to you if you need it.

Todd

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#122 Post by Todd Laubach » January 30th, 2019, 8:19 am

Russell A wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 2:47 pm
Thomas H wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 6:35 pm
Bottom line nothing is left of our wine that we stored with this SOB Holder? Does anyone know where he is currently?
I do know where he is at the moment, they finally arrested him today. His first apperance was this afternoon, I and one other was present. The Judge released him into the custody of his wife. His next apperance will be soon, and I will keep everyone updated.
Hi Russell - I was out of town so unable to attend. Did Holder make eye contact with you and how did he look, demeanor, etc?

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#123 Post by Russell A » January 30th, 2019, 7:25 pm

Todd Laubach wrote:
January 30th, 2019, 8:19 am
Russell A wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 2:47 pm
Thomas H wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 6:35 pm
Bottom line nothing is left of our wine that we stored with this SOB Holder? Does anyone know where he is currently?
I do know where he is at the moment, they finally arrested him today. His first apperance was this afternoon, I and one other was present. The Judge released him into the custody of his wife. His next apperance will be soon, and I will keep everyone updated.
Hi Russell - I was out of town so unable to attend. Did Holder make eye contact with you and how did he look, demeanor, etc?
Todd, just for a very brief second. Then put his head down and never looked again. As far as his demeanor, same old Bill looks like. It really pissed me off that they let him out under his wifes supervision. She sold their house and was supposed to get a divorce but not sure of that now. Once she knew who I was she never looked at me again, on top of sitting on his side of the court. I have a bad feeling he is going to get a slap on the hand compared to what he should get. I think they only have the total at 2.5 million and we have it at around 7.5 million
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#124 Post by Russell A » January 30th, 2019, 7:30 pm

Thomas H wrote:
January 26th, 2019, 6:35 pm
Bottom line nothing is left of our wine that we stored with this SOB Holder? Does anyone know where he is currently?
If you want to call me you can, I was there for most of what was recovered. PM me and I'll give you my number.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#125 Post by Arv R » February 2nd, 2019, 9:46 am

What's crazy / sad, is that the guy was probably still stealing the whole time he was under investigation and facing litigation in the civil suits. Whatever compelled his theft to begin with didn't stop just because authorities and lawyers got involved.

It's crazy to release someone like that. There's plenty of harm happening on an ongoing basis, even if it costs real money jailing someone til trial.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#126 Post by YLee » February 2nd, 2019, 2:21 pm

Media should get a hold of this story. Then maybe the judge would feel a bit more pressure to be stricter.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#127 Post by Russell A » March 1st, 2019, 9:31 am

Mr. Holder entered a not guilty plea this morning, now waiting on court dates
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#128 Post by CJ Beazley » March 1st, 2019, 9:44 am

Russell A wrote:
March 1st, 2019, 9:31 am
Mr. Holder entered a not guilty plea this morning, now waiting on court dates
You guys need to find someone with a pacer account and docket watch him, to see what’s going on.
It's C(raig)

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#129 Post by Russell A » March 1st, 2019, 10:09 am

CJ Beazley wrote:
March 1st, 2019, 9:44 am
Russell A wrote:
March 1st, 2019, 9:31 am
Mr. Holder entered a not guilty plea this morning, now waiting on court dates
You guys need to find someone with a pacer account and docket watch him, to see what’s going on.
Some are keeping a very close tab on him....No worries
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#130 Post by PaulM » April 8th, 2019, 9:07 am

The FBI is still active on this. I moved my wine out years ago but got a call today from the investigating agent asking if I still had anything there. (Holder basically had no records, so they're working through bank records of anyone who paid him.) If anyone needs to be put in touch with the FBI team, PM me - I have contact details.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#131 Post by R. Smith » April 8th, 2019, 12:23 pm

R y @ n

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#132 Post by John Me » July 31st, 2019, 1:14 pm

Hello,
Can anyone provide a point of contact to get more information on this issue? Having used this person for storage (and finding out about this problem now), I would like to know if any wine, such as my own, was recovered, etc.
Thank you.
JMeni chetti

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#133 Post by Russell A » August 1st, 2019, 7:27 pm

John Me wrote:
July 31st, 2019, 1:14 pm
Hello,
Can anyone provide a point of contact to get more information on this issue? Having used this person for storage (and finding out about this problem now), I would like to know if any wine, such as my own, was recovered, etc.
Thank you.
There is no wine that has been recovered, If you had wine there and it was of any value... It is gone.
If you have insurance coverage for the wine, you can PM me and I will give you the FBI Agent in charge of the case info so you can file a claim.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#134 Post by AndrewH » August 2nd, 2019, 12:23 pm

Article in Washington Post today:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pu ... 790868dc3b

tl;dr sentencing:
Holder admitted he caused losses of between $500,000 and $1.5 million. On Wednesday he was sentenced to 18 months in prison on a wire-fraud charge and ordered to pay back victims after admitting to running his scheme.
Plus assorted quotes from some posters on this thread. I hadn't heard about this until now, and my sympathies to all of you who were defrauded. Hoping you get something (money or wine) back in at least some way.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#135 Post by T. Melloni » August 2nd, 2019, 1:09 pm

AndrewH wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 12:23 pm
Article in Washington Post today:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pu ... 790868dc3b
I like the comment:
"My wine collection is all in 5 liter boxes. I have two or three of them in the pantry right now. No security guard or climate control necessary."
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#136 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 2nd, 2019, 1:27 pm

T. Melloni wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 1:09 pm
AndrewH wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 12:23 pm
Article in Washington Post today:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pu ... 790868dc3b
I like the comment:
"My wine collection is all in 5 liter boxes. I have two or three of them in the pantry right now. No security guard or climate control necessary."
The couple’s cheapest bottle was worth $800, and the most expensive was worth $13,000.
That's Fu-level stuff there
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#137 Post by T. Melloni » August 2nd, 2019, 1:38 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 1:27 pm
T. Melloni wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 1:09 pm
AndrewH wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 12:23 pm
Article in Washington Post today:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pu ... 790868dc3b
I like the comment:
"My wine collection is all in 5 liter boxes. I have two or three of them in the pantry right now. No security guard or climate control necessary."
The couple’s cheapest bottle was worth $800, and the most expensive was worth $13,000.
That's Fu-level stuff there
Fu-level stuff is why I try to be nice on this board - in the hope I might someday be invited to one of his dinners - sushi and Burgundy.
Tho m@s (sometimes); You can call me T.

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#138 Post by Todd Laubach » August 3rd, 2019, 6:06 am

I find it funny they wont mention the two businesses involved in buying the wines. I dont know for sure but my guess is that they turned a blind eye to how the wines were acquired.

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#139 Post by Charlie Carnes » August 3rd, 2019, 8:52 am

T. Melloni wrote:
August 2nd, 2019, 1:38 pm
Fu-level stuff is why I try to be nice on this board - in the hope I might someday be invited to one of his dinners - sushi and Burgundy.
More like caviar, chicken wings, and Burgundy...
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#140 Post by Arv R » August 3rd, 2019, 9:03 am

That sentence is sort of like Holder getting paid 100k/mo for each month locked up.

Maybe more if they undercount the losses.

That seems like a pretty weak penalty.
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Re: Update: FEDERAL INDICTMENT - Safe Harbour Wine Storage and Bill Holder – CRIMINAL

#141 Post by Thom E » August 6th, 2019, 4:02 pm

I just found this website and discovered that Bill Holder sold/stole all of our wine that we owned. I have spent the last 2 weekends obtaining the current value of the wines for an insurance claim and also have discovered that we were under insured.
I need some help with obtaining contacts and information so that I can report this to the proper authorities. Please help if you can or let me know who to contact. Thank you.

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