Educational Fridays

As someone in his early 30s who caught the bug about 6 years ago, I read with interest (and perhaps a little envy) many of the posts here regarding aged wines. None of the elder members of my family drink, hence I occasionally wish for someone a little further along in the game who had access to great wines of the 80s and 90s to learn from. So I continue reading and try to attend and host tastings whenever I can to expand my understanding and appreciation of wine.

With that background in mind, I got off work early recently on a Friday and decided to spend some time at my favorite wine store. I noticed some customers congregating around a tasting bar, each carrying a satchel. I was invited over by the manager, someone I’ve gotten to know over a few years who has made excellent recommendations for my entry into riesling, loire whites, etc. He began introducing me to the other gentlemen at the table, (none of whom I gather are on WB) guys in their 40s-60s, who began pulling out some really exciting bottles.

So on this random, unexpected Friday, I was given the opportunity to taste great bordeaux older than me, aged GC burg, and some recent release wines for comparison/context. There was also an '89 Pichon Baron not pictured. I saw how an ah-so worked and (perhaps based on my interest) was welcomed to come again. I learned that there is generally no theme to the tastings, just guys sharing gems from their cellars, who get excited about meeting up once a week to enjoy a bunch of small pours together. The tone is relaxed and the people seem as lovely as the wine. As you can imagine, I hurried back to the next one:

This one was all california (except the QC). And just as enlightening. Although my cellar is young, I don’t want to come underdressed, so I brought the Aubert, which most seemed to appreciate. Some of the comments in the offline etiquette thread were quite helpful. My key questions are 1) If you are the guy at the table pulling out 82 BDX, what kind of response makes you happy to share it with a newer enthusiast in my position? 2) Anyone know of some reputable online sellers I can backfill through that ship to Texas? (I’m pending a bunch of bottles from Envoyer) 3) What kinds of young wine would excite someone whose cellar is mostly 80s/90s? I’m on a bunch of mailers thanks to you folks (bedrock, carlisle, realm, several from Mike Smith) and want to participate in a meaningful way, but obviously can’t compete with 86 dominus at this point.

Well John, most of the people I know who really know wine and have been in the business or involved for many years don’t participate in this or any other forum. And a lot of them have been collecting wine or have access to wonderful older wines. They were my teachers and at this point, I try to pay it back. Not to them necessarily, but to others who are learning.

Most people who really like wine are happy to share and talk with people who are sincerely interested. The idea of having a tasting where wines have to be some number of points or some number of dollars is really something that interests folks who don’t know much themselves and consequently can’t trust their own judgment.

And a lot of the people who have older old-world wines are amused by some of the mailing list wines. Not everyone, but those wines are often of a different type entirely. I’m not on any mailing lists but have taken some Mike Smith wines to European friends and they’re more puzzled than enthused. An interesting Zin is sometimes more welcome than a ripe Cab blend. A lot of those guys are genuinely curious, so something unusual by someone like Bryan Harrington might pique their interest. Some of Paul Gordon’s wines that have a rather old-world feel to them as well, or Edmund St Johns, Failla, Pax, etc. The reason I mention those is that they go against the stereotype of big and ripe CA wines. You might look to WA as well - Andrew Will, Cadence, and Betz for example show nicely.

But it really depends on the crowd - it’s really hard to say what someone might like if you don’t know the individual. My suspicion is that if you want to learn, and you bring something that excites you and share it, nobody will be offended. And you don’t have to like everything someone else has either. It’s OK to like what you like.

I was in a similar situation early on when I first got into drinking. I was blessed to share many great wines with some folks that had been collecting for decades and have no use for a forum like this. I always tried to find wines that would interest them and introduce them to new producers. They had no interest in wines like the 2001 Valdicava Brunello di Montalcino Riserva Madonna del Piano citing that it was too young(and probably too modern)…but they did appreciate the 1990 Château Pichon-Longueville Baron I opened in 2007 and politely encouraged me to hang onto it for another decade after we opened the 1st of two bottles. In the end, I found that each of them had different interests and appreciated different wines that I brought for different reasons. If you’re interested in wines and looking for wines to share that they’re excited about…your heart’s in the right spot and that’s about all that matters. Have fun…RWC has good provenance on the West Coast, Chambers is good on the East.

That’s pretty rad that you were able to stumble into that situation…

I would recommend winebid as they have older bottles, I’ve found that it doesn’t have to be a heavy hitter, just something fun with age on it is good enough to share. You also don’t have to be over enthusiastic about any of the wines to show gratitude a simple thank you and sharing of your own would suffice…

Lastly most on here won’t hate on you per your last comment. The majority of snark or ire on this forum is member to member that have had issues in the past and take jabs at one another, this is a pretty welcoming forum.

Oh and in answer to your questions…

1. Thank you for sharing this. I really appreciate this.
2. RWC & Chambers are both reputable…I don’t know who ships to your state. Yet, I’d start there.
3. Champagnes, high-end Sherry, and obscure or unique wines.

You found a great group of wine hobbyists. Part of that is sharing their hobby with people who appreciate their efforts. Good advice above. Listen to their stories, contribute wines that excite you (with an attentiveness to what goes over well). Sounds like you’re as genuine as them.

Nice post.

1. show that you are a thoughtful taster by making an observation or asking a question that stimulates a deeper discussion of the relative merits or negatives of the wine being poured. speak your mind but be humble. Demonstrate curiosity and appreciation.

2. I think Benchmark is excellent for back vintages in very good condition. Can be pricy at times but provenance is excellent in my experience. Look for quarterly sales.

3. GG rieslings are great young but also age well and are good German gateway wine. Look for Donnhoff to get started…Grower champagne can be bought at $50 per and can excite jaded palates

Thanks to all for these thoughtful responses. I’ve noticed that this group is mostly interested in reds, but holds a favorable attitude toward champagne; although none have been opened as yet. I agree that it’s all about learning and paying attention to the thoughts and preferences of each taster. On that line, I’ve purchased a few mid-range BDX from the 80s, along with some back vintage Ridge on WineBid. Unfortunately I’ll be waiting several months for the weather to cool down to a point where I can ship it. This week I brought the 77 Messias port at the suggestion of the manager. It was interesting (liquid pecan pie) and appreciated by the group, but I just cannot understand why dessert wines are bottled in anything other than .375

This was a special week for me as yesterday marked the last day of an 11-year postgraduate journey; having completed gastroenterology fellowship. '89 Palmer wasn’t a bad way to celebrate…WineBerserkers - Wine discussion forum and online community

Not pictured here was a 2015 Pape Clement (outstanding and seemingly ageworthy), Raen Sonoma Coast and Fort-Ross Seaview 2016s, and a 2012 Domaine de la Côte de l’Ange CdP (which was without a doubt the top QPR in my mind). The 93 LeClerc was over the hill. The 98 Haut Bailly showed well and had some secondary development. The ‘15 Alter Ego (sometimes we pull wine right off the shelf) was approachable but perhaps lacking in structure such that we all thought a 5-10 year life span was about what it has in the tank. The 89’ Palmer had nothing upon which to improve and truly bore zero resemblance to the (much newer) 2nd label.

A couple of observations: In a tasting of more than 2 or 3 wines, it’s easy for me to lose the trees for the forest. Meaning, the impression of individual wines becomes a little blurry when you’ve just tasted a dozen. I tend to think my tasting memory is pretty strong, even if my palate leans a little modern at this point. In this context, unless I were to make a tasting note before the next pour, I’m really left with only a couple of features with which to identify the wine (or maybe only the binary sense of liking it or not). Reflecting on that, I’m particularly impressed with posts/tasters who can capture the essence of a great wine in their notes when there are a number of other superstars at the table. 1) Any suggestions to capture as much enjoyment as possible at a big tasting?

Additionally, so far it seems to me that all the aged wine I’ve tasted shares a similar “old-ness” factor. It’s hard to describe, but I wonder if the difference in quality between a mid-range chateau from a good vintage vs. a classified or 1st growth from an off year is all that great. Obviously, storage and provenance play a role here. It’s not that old wines just have the generic taste of age, but to me, they do all seem to move along a similar trajectory from different starting points… 2) Are you all better able to identify the distinctive characteristics of aged wine or young wine?

And finally, I’m learning that my palate seems to favor wine in its late stage of secondary development. However, I wonder what the life-span of some of the more modern wines in my cellar will look like. I’m certain this has been addressed on the forum before, but 3) how do the ripe, high alcohol wines from producers like Realm, Carter, Maybach, SQN, Shafer, Bevan, etc. behave with >10 years of age and are they better enjoyed young?

Cheers, John

I can’t comment on 3, as they’re not wines I know.

For 1) I’d say you’ve already cottoned on to the problem of multiple wines and how this can make note-taking more challenging. In addition some settings aren’t conducive to scribbling notes e.g. walkround tasting or a meal or catching up with friends. A sit-down tasting where wine takes centre stage and you have a tasting sheet to scribble on, makes it far easier. The more wines, generally the less I write, and that’s partially because after a few wines, I’d not be so confident about my judgement.

If you’re able to scribble a few notes standing up or at the bar, get into the habit of putting pertinent words onto paper, but nothing more. If you want to write it up afterwards that should give you enough to stretch it out to something more verbose. Later that evening is ideal, but even the next day the scribbles can be enough to jog the memory.

The other thing is to keep writing TNs and pay attention to others, as it can help build up a TN vocabulary and a way of making notes that feels natural for you.

2. Often it’s the subtleties that excite with older wine, and it’s the sometimes fleeting complexity that gets as much space as more obvious elements. Take a little longer to sniff older wines (taking a few seconds break each time, otherwise your brain will blank out some aromas). It’s not at all unusual for me to spend 3-4 minutes on the nose, before I even take a sip. Not everyone does this though, and in some tasting groups this often means I’m forever playing catchup. Also useful to give some thought to where it is in the lifecycle, perhaps still mostly primary fruit / tannins etc. or maybe there is a nice balance between those primary flavours and more restrained, complex or unusual aromas/flavours that emerge, or perhaps the primary fruit has gone and an element (e.g. mushroom) that’s fine as a background flavour, is starting to overtake the wine. Is the acidity sufficient, a bit spiky or is it struggling to keep any freshness to the wine.

Regards
Ian

Well… this was a good one. Wanted to share some joy here. 15 VCC, Sassicaia, 97 togni, 87 Caymus SS, 86 Gloria, 90 Palmer, and a 71 Riesling from SA prum

One burgundy themed with a random 87 Dominus and Cantenac Brown

And a hodgepodge. There have been several others not pictured as well. I continue to learn what I enjoy and there have been very few emporers without clothing. I’ve answered several of my own questions from the OP just by spending time in the group. It’s hard to impress someone who loves BDX and has a cellar full of top growths, but I do have a large shipment from winebid coming when the weather cools down. Cheers, JV

Sounds like you’ve landed in a great place John!

What’s your preference of

• hodgepodge
• Absolute focus on a region (or sub-region)
• somewhere in the middle

Normally I prefer a hodgepodge or very loose theme for a social tasting, though for getting to grips with a new region, a tight focus can give a lot of insight, so can be useful. I’ll never be a Burgundy fan, as studying the subtle nuances in fine detail doesn’t excite, but plenty of people here that it works for.

Thank you for your comments, Ian. I think there is much to be gained from each experience if careful attention is paid. Except for the (mostly) burgundy group above, none of these have had a cohesive theme. I’m fine with that - to me it would seem you can learn a good deal about a varietal in the context of a mixed bag (e.g. how tempranillo tastes different from zin, cab, Sangiovese, Syrah etc) but the trouble here is there are so many variables in play (age of the wine, producer, and whether there are other grapes in the blend come to mind but there are myriad others) that at the end of the day, sometimes all you can say is “I liked that one” or “characteristic ‘X’ was really prominent in this wine”

When I organize tastings, I prefer a focus for the sake of attempting to isolate those variables. But as anyone who has tasted a horizontal of Burgundies from the same producer and year would attest, even in a tight vacuum the differences between bottlings can be significant. That is to say, unless a tasting theme is ultra specific, there will always be variability that’s tough to account for. This group isn’t looking for a scientific experiment, they just want to taste great juice.

The real excitement for me comes from getting to try something that I’ve only read about but don’t have good access to or is (now) more costly than I would be able to purchase. I’ll confess to frequent label chasing in my own pursuit of cellar building, so tasting a 15 VCC (both $$$ and hard to find in my market) or a 97 Togni (just not around) are both wonderfully special experiences. Side by side next to a half dozen other classic wines is just mind-blowing.

I think I would share what excites me, personally. There is no point trying to compete on the same ground. Also I would suggest you take a long term view in terms of your generosity. To the extent you too ever amass a well-stocked cellar, remember their generosity and share your wine with another newbie.

you were introduced into an awesome situation! i would love to find a group like that, for the same reasons that you are loving it. If i found one, I would maybe err on the side of sprinkling in some really well made and harder to find young new world wines to subsidize the fact that when I bring a 25+ year old BDX, chances are its one of the only wines of that age I own. a lot of good ones were mentioned already but I agree with the likes of Pax, maybe Piedrasassi, Dirty and Rowdy… theres a good chance a lot of these guys who have a ton of 80s bordeaux and burgs in their cellar have some buying patterns that dont include places like Alexander Valley and Sonoma coast. You may be able to introduce them to some things even while they introduce you to things!

Also, congrats on completing your fellowship!

Great group, sounds like a rare opportunity.

Regarding themes, it depends on the purpose of the tasting and the knowledge of the attendees.

For a learning experience for newbies, comparing different varieties or different countries is often a winner. For more experienced tasters a more focused tasting is usually more educational.

For fun, themes are less critical.