Last week, I opened a 2004 Dauvissat Chablis 1er cru “Vaillons” to check out the vintage and the wine.
When I opened it is was a darkish color and aromatically dead. Things didn’t seem good…and my wife was concerned about the color, particularly. It didn’t seem prem-oxed per se. (And, the cork was not the silicone/rigid ones I think are the cause of that plague).
I also though I noticed a slight TCA.
So, I aerated it for a few hours…and it was better at dinner. The next day it was way better…and improved dramatically by the third day, losing any off tastes and with a color that seemed a little lighter. It was a Dauvissat 1er cru in full bloom. (Though not the greatest example; however, I don’t have any others to compare yet as to the real potential of the wine itself.) So…once again I learned, through Dauvissat’s example, not to throw out the wine with the bath water…and see it through. This baby needed aeration bigtime.
For me, Dauvissat’s Chablis wines…the best white wines I know (along with Albert Boxler in Alsace) always need lots of aeration. Not this much, but lots. They are not pop and pour candidates. And, they are not wines that reveal anything without that aeration, imo.
Obviously, this is not a new experience for me.
I just throw it out as a caveat emptor…reserve judgment with such wines.
a friend of mine had the same experience with a 2007 Forest recently, when he first open it he thought it was completely shot, he stuck the cork back in the 2/3 full bottle and forgot about it (by accident) for a couple of days, thought he would try it again in the name of science when he found the bottle again on his shelf, not only had it survived it was really drinking well.
I do wonder, in general, how many whites are drunk too soon after opening. I suspect too many people pay less attention to the service whites than they do of reds.
This is one end of the spectrum, the other is with very young wines, which often benefit from a quick double decant.
I recently opened a 1998 J.M. Boillot Montagny 1er Cru and it was closer to Sherry than Chardonnay. I did recently have a 2004 Simon Bize Corton-Charlemagne that was drinking well so I haven’t completely given up on white Burgs–but I have severely cut back.
I really don’t want a wine that I open for a dinner or event and have to check in on it every 24 hrs for three days before it drinks well. I’ll just move on. That’s a big defect in the wine.
I recently posted on a 00 Dauvissat Le Forest - seemed dead - had a nice exchange with Stuart and John Stimson, but ultimately came to the same conclusion above.
… As a wine professional, I am pretty sure I can tell if something is oxidized: the color, the bouquet, the taste on the palate. But what if I am wrong? What if there is another effect that shows the same symptoms but is in fact a different process? I wouldn’t even entertain the notion if it were not for one factor: On a number of occasions I have experienced wines that appeared to be oxidized that have subsequently returned to the fold.
At one time, almost every wine from 1996 appeared oxidized. I stopped drinking them but didn’t throw any of my remaining bottles away. Now (2013), the incidence of oxidation is very low, and when it does occur it is usually in bottles with a slippery (silicone-treated) and thus inadequate cork. So, something appears to have changed over the intervening period, if my perception is accurate. Jamie Goode’s excellent article (“Beauty and the Beast: Premature Oxidation,” WFW 14, pp.86-92) cites Michel Bettane, the leading French critic, as having experienced the apparent reversal of oxidation, or at least the reversal of apparent oxidation, again in relation to the 1996 vintage.
… I can only infer one of two explanations: Either oxidation is reversible, or else the symptoms of oxidation that seem compelling are in fact something else. Those with a better grounding in chemistry than I suggest that the conversion of ethanol to acetaldehyde is not reversible-but perhaps the oxidation of flavonoids can be. Certainly all winemakers have experience of detecting some oxidation in barrel or tank and reversing it with a judicious dose of sulfur.
I think Jasper is talking about what is actually mistaken oxidation. If you are very careful about assessing a wine such as Stuart has posted upon, it seems flawed and off, and we assume oxidation, but if you are very careful in assessing it, the hallmarks of oxidation are not there–eg sherried flavors, baked or cooked apple, intense waxiness.
I’ve learned a lot in particular about this issue with Dauvissat wines. Certainly several 2008’s have been legitimately oxidized, but in many other vintages there have been very closed, odd, seemingly flawed wines that blossom with air. The other thing I’ve commented upon a number of times before is that sometimes they are darker, and lighten considerably in color with air.
Many folks report setting them aside and being surprised the following day, but you needn’t wait that long. usually with 2 hours of air they are dramatically better. I understand that people are impatient with their whites, but remember with serious reds, we are often opening them and airing them for several hours before serving. Why not whites? We are actually disrespecting them by not treating them appropriately. With Dauvissat, and in fact any serious chablis or white burg, I try to open 2-3 hours before serving, and I often decant.
Stuart, I don’t think you are saying premox hasn’t been a problem for Dauvissat. Just that one should be patient before throwing the flag. Is that right?
I was burned by the premox variance in the 2000 GCs (so good on release), and it has had me very wary of medium or long-term aging of Dauvissat ever since. Probably overly cautious, exacerbated by price escalation.
The thing here, is that Dauvissat comes off quite reductive, so how much is this more in a hyper-reduction camp as opposed to it truly being oxidized? I’m not sure this explains for the myriad of other producers that don’t make their white burgs as reductive as Dauvissat.
I haven’t had the amount or breadth of white burgs that many in this thread have had, but I don’t have the time, money, or patience to be able to do an experiment like this. I can wait a few hours, but, if a wine is still heavily showing those traits while possibly improving, I’m still likely to drain pour it and look towards something else like Alan noted.
Exactly, Jayson…but not all bottles need be lumped into that until one is sure. Obviously, a truly oxidized bottle won’t improve. And, after 3-4 hours in decanter, this certainly did. It was good at dinner…and then better the next days. I didn’t have enough left to really analyze the colors…but…my wife remarked that it was originally way too dark to be good.
And, this phenomenon also happened with Dauvissat before the premox was even known…or at the very early stages. In that time period I actually communicated with Vincent Dauvissat. He was unaware of the premox at the time and didn’t know what I was talking about in either case, and seemed a bit insulted. So…I dropped it, as I wanted to keep visiting and buying.
FWIW, I don’t think a Dauvissat wine can be over-aerated…they hold up for days and improve for a while at first. I will not open a Dauvissat, which is a pretty fair hunk of my collection of whites, without the time to do a long aeration…checki
ng along the way, of course.
Thanks Stuart and everyone for this very interesting input. I am in the camp of willing to check back on wines—more often than I used to. But I also take Alan’s first point very much to heart. I’m not playing a different kind of “roulette” trying to assess exactly when the wine will be at its best over the course of n days before e.g. a dinner party. That does not add enjoyment to my experience with wine. And since I very seldom drink wine alone, it will still end up being a kind of disincentive for me to purchase wines like this.
To offer a counter-example with Sauternes, which I almost always give lots and lots of air, in that case because of my own experience, I feel much more comfortable about hitting the (sorry for the pun) sweet spot 3 or 4 days out and prepare accordingly.
I understand Alan’s point and yours, but I drink a fair amount of Barolo, and red burg, and in many cases these wines remain closed and very grumpy for 3-4 hours after opening before they transform. If I have a tasting or dinner where Barolo is served I’m often opening the wines in the AM or noon for an evening event. So I don’t get what’s so different if you decide to serve a Dauvissat.