Old burgundy - how do you research?

Hi all,

I occasionally see on here people drinking quite old burgundies, eg from the 60s, 70s, etc. How do you source these and how do you do your research I imagine that in the US you have to buy such old wines through auction? I am asking the question, as I did come across someone not too far from where I live, selling off some old burgundies from his father’s cellar. However, names are pretty unknown for most of these producers, but vintages are quite ok. Just to give you some examples:

• 1978 Bernard de St Honge (only one bottle on cellar tracker): Clos de Beze, Mazis, even La Tache (did DRC sell off some wine in bulk back in 78?) - no prices are listed for the moment. I’d be willing to take a gamble if prices are reasonable. Anyone familiar with these wines?

• Domaine Daniel Senard (I think this is now related to Comte Senard?): Corton Clos de Meix, Clos du Roi and Bressandes, all 1978, all 30 EUR per bottle - but there is really nothing on such old vintages to be found.

• There is even quite a few bottles of R Engel Echezeaux and Clos Vougeot available, all 1978. Labels are really bad but that doesn’t matter as it wouldn’t be to resell. The guy apparently offloaded some Roumier with good labels to a winery website, i guess the labels on these were too bad. If you came across such bottles, how would you calculate an offer price? We bought and tried 1 bottle of Clos Vougeot 78 - it was pretty good, but I believe we paid around 200 EUR for it to try, so not cheap (although prices seems to have gone through the roof lately).

There is a lot more wine, but from what we tried, also some over the hill bottles (village wines from the 70s, not grand cru like above), from producers such as drouhin- laroze, bichot, domaine des hautes chappelles, prieur-brunet, etc. Interesting stuff! But I guess it would be more of an educational exercise than anything else, unless for someone like Mr Audouze.

Any tips on how to go about this - fill varies but is on average pretty good. Cellar must have been very humid. The advantage would be that these wines probably haven’t moved in decades, but still.

“Sourcing” wine is MUCH more expensive than merely “buying” wine.

Jozef , I once had a La Tache 1979 from Bernard de Saint-Honge ( a negotiant from NSG , if I remember correctly ) . I doubled checked with Bernard Noblet and he confirmed DRC sold to them till the early eigthies . The wine was not great but I would assume you have better chances with a 1978 .
Old Burgundy bottles from decent Belgian cellars are a gamble but I had MANY fantastic experiences with wines from negotiants I never heard about , going back to the twenties .
I’d like to visit that cellar with you… ( and you Dad , if he’s around )

you start by tasting, reading, talking. You learn who the best négociants were and you listen to others. You get on mailing lists, search the web and wine-searcher. And you kiss a lot of toads while looking for princes. Many of us have been collecting for 30+ years, too.

Burgundy tolerates ullage well and bad label condition often indicated a humid cellar. If you can verify provenance and storage, that is a bonus. But with old bottles, it is often a crapshoot.

Burgundy is a crap shoot?

Trolling is a crap shoot.

Jozef,

Daniel Senard is definitely related to Comte Senard. The Senard wines I had from the 1990s were ok. But 30 euros sounds very fair for those 1978s.

And if the wines were stored all these years in the same cellar, than it’s a pretty safe bet (unlike buying wine from auctions).

Khiem

+1, kiss a lot of toads to find a prince and then its back to the toads again

However, it is the case that 60s Burgundy from an unknown negociant is indeed a crap shoot, even if Burgundy in general is not. I only take the chance when the price is low enough to offset the inevitable duds. Really only a pastime for those who enjoy methodically browsing auction listings. I lost my enthusiasm for that a number of years ago, thus I haven’t made any such purchases in a while. Probably because I’ve got enough mature burgs in my cellar and don’t really need more.

Though I’m not sure why I let that stop me now, never has in the past.

I’ve been very pleasantly surprised at the quality of many of the older Burgundies that have come my way. Most have been sourced in France, many in Burgundy. Low ullage is not typically a major problem however pay close attention to colour.

Two weeks ago I opened a 1949 Chassagne village rouge from a negociant called Clerget. Ullage was about 4cms. The wine was lovely. Vibrant red fruits and sous bois. Not particularly complex but a delight to drink.

Just a few weeks ago , we had a Masson-Dubois 1962 clos de Vougeot which was absolutely spectacular . The label also mentioned " Frankreich in big bold letters, so it was a German export wine . Never heard of the negotiant .

I will keep you updated, Herwig, if anything comes out of it - I believe most wines are village level wines, so not worth the gamble anyway in my view. I am under the impression that people in Europe drink their wines much younger than in the US, although perhaps my views are influenced by the US collectors on this board.

Thank you for the info Khiem - indeed I am tempted to try although not with too much expectations.

78 is a great vintage, you have some great appellations there. At 30€ each it is hardly a crap shoot. You buy them all and enjoy the learning experience. No doubt some won’t perform while others will be stars.

Buy all.