If Pomerol did have a classification....?

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Gerhard P.
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If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#51 Post by Gerhard P. » January 5th, 2018, 9:30 am

Peter Chiu wrote:
If Pomerol did have a classification, it would not be the same as an AOC in Burgundy.

From what I understand, the laws there allow the owner of the Chateaux to label any juice from his newly acquired ( but must be adjacent ) vineyards under the name of his own Chateaux.

For example, if Chateaux Petrus bought up all the vineyards next to his plot - which he now owns - he is allowed to include the all juice from the new acquired vineyards as if they are from Chateaux Petrus.

So....what kind of a *classification* would that be ? [rofl.gif]

I maybe wrong ....but [scratch.gif]
I don´t know what this has to do with my posting above [scratch.gif]

>the laws there allow the owner of the Chateaux to label any juice from his newly acquired ( but must be adjacent ) ...

no, nothing has to be adjacent (not even in the Medoc), it usually has to be in the same class (or get permission).
In Pomerol a new vineyard has only to be of AOC Pomerol ...

Mark is totally right ...
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If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#52 Post by Peter Chiu » January 5th, 2018, 9:51 am

Jeff - thanks for the information.

Gerhard.....thanks for posting. I respect your knowledge in burgundy and I am a Burgundy guy. I do not know much about Bordeaux and its classification pileon . My initial posting is just to confirm my under standing that an AOC in Burgundy is different than a classification in Bordeaux ( or Pomerol )...

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If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#53 Post by Gerhard P. » January 6th, 2018, 2:32 am

Peter Chiu wrote:.... My initial posting is just to confirm my under standing that an AOC in Burgundy is different than a classification in Bordeaux ( or Pomerol )...
Absolutely different!
In Burgundy the AOC (incl. cru-classification) depends solely on the terroir, the lieu-dit, an exactly limited plot of land with certain qualities ...

In Bordeaux an AOC also defines terroir, but in a much more general way, usually comprising a whole political community (or even several communities). The classification on the other hand is partly historical (1855), partly quite recently (1953/1955) defined by local juries ... but always depending on the property of a certain Château, sometimes even crossing over AOCs (e.g. Lafite, Pichon-Lalande).
So selling/purchasing/swapping vineyards is possible (usually with permission of the authorities) ...

In Pomerol, where there is no classification at all, everything can be sold/purchased/swapped as long as it remains within the Pomerol-AOC.
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If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#54 Post by Peter Chiu » January 8th, 2018, 5:17 am

Merci......Gerhard. Bitterly cold in Montreal, Quebec, Canada...lately. [cheers.gif]

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If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#55 Post by z_hart » January 8th, 2018, 1:26 pm

Over the past few years, we have started to venture into aged Bordeaux's, all left bank, and have had all of the good years (and some not-so-good years) back to 1970, from 1st thru 5th growths. Prior to that, our love was new world, big bold cabs.

The other weekend at dinner decided to venture to the right bank and ordered a 1985 Trontanoy, based on the som's recommendation. I was very much underwhelmed. Great initial nose of leather, herbs and earthiness but quickly turned to bright red fruit, floral and violet type aromas. Flavor profile was slightly too tart and tasted 'fresh', more like a young wine than a 30+ yr old. It tasted like it lacked that 'umph' that I was expecting. Was not impressed for $625/bottle (big steakhouse restaurant markup).

Reading the posts above, Trontanoy should have been a solid choice of chateau. Obviously the '85 vintage could have been better, but there's plenty that are worse.

My question: is my tasting experience typical of Pomerol wines? Or should I give it another try?
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If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#56 Post by Jeff Leve » January 8th, 2018, 2:00 pm

[quote="z_hart"1985 Trontanoy, based on the som's recommendation. I was very much underwhelmed. Was not impressed for $625/bottle (big steakhouse restaurant markup).

Reading the posts above, Trontanoy should have been a solid choice of chateau. Obviously the '85 vintage could have been better, but there's plenty that are worse.

My question: is my tasting experience typical of Pomerol wines? Or should I give it another try?[/quote]

1985 was not a successful vintage for any of the Moueix properties. Trotanoy and Petrus, are big letdowns for a vintage of that quality. I'd try another, and you do not need to spend $625!

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If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#57 Post by Gerhard P. » January 8th, 2018, 2:11 pm

z_hart wrote:...

Reading the posts above, Trontanoy should have been a solid choice of chateau. Obviously the '85 vintage could have been better, but there's plenty that are worse.

My question: is my tasting experience typical of Pomerol wines? Or should I give it another try?
I did a full Trotanoy-tasting a few years ago - 32 wines:
see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40899

Our bottle of 1985 T. was outstanding (93 points for me), but compared to the (excellent) vintage in Pomerol it even could have been slightly better (like other Moueix properties).
The period between 1983 and 1988/89 wasn´t the very best of this producer - however the 1982 was great, the 1989 outstanding.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#58 Post by Alex Novak » June 29th, 2020, 3:03 pm

One decent starting place on a classification is Wikipedia's post on Pomerol, which includes Master of Wine Mary Ewing-Mulligan's 2001 rankings that divided Pomerol into three categories. One flaw was that she ignored a couple of top ones which made fewer than 1,000 cases, most notably La Violette.

Class One (On a par with the First Growths of the Médoc) Château Pétrus and Château Lafleur.

Class Two (On a par with the Second and Third Growths of the Médoc) Château Trotanoy, Château L'Évangile, Vieux Château Certan, Château L'Église-Clinet, Château Clinet, Château La Fleur-Pétrus, Château Clos l'Église, Château La Conseillante, Château Certan de May, Château Latour à Pomerol, Château Nenin and Château La Fleur-de-Gay.

Class Three (On a par with the Fourth and Fifth Growths of the Médoc) Château Petit-Village, Château Feytit-Clinet, Château Rouget, Château Bon-Pasteur, Château La Croix du Casse, Château Gazin, Château La Grave-à-Pomerol, Château le Gay, Château Hosanna and Château la Croix-de-Gay.

Personally, I would have knocked down her last three in Class Two to Class Three and added La Violette to Class Two. I might have put Hosanna up a notch, but it is so inconsistent.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#59 Post by William Kelley » June 29th, 2020, 3:45 pm

Alex Novak wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 3:03 pm
One decent starting place on a classification is Wikipedia's post on Pomerol, which includes Master of Wine Mary Ewing-Mulligan's 2001 rankings that divided Pomerol into three categories. One flaw was that she ignored a couple of top ones which made fewer than 1,000 cases, most notably La Violette.

Class One (On a par with the First Growths of the Médoc) Château Pétrus and Château Lafleur.

Class Two (On a par with the Second and Third Growths of the Médoc) Château Trotanoy, Château L'Évangile, Vieux Château Certan, Château L'Église-Clinet, Château Clinet, Château La Fleur-Pétrus, Château Clos l'Église, Château La Conseillante, Château Certan de May, Château Latour à Pomerol, Château Nenin and Château La Fleur-de-Gay.

Class Three (On a par with the Fourth and Fifth Growths of the Médoc) Château Petit-Village, Château Feytit-Clinet, Château Rouget, Château Bon-Pasteur, Château La Croix du Casse, Château Gazin, Château La Grave-à-Pomerol, Château le Gay, Château Hosanna and Château la Croix-de-Gay.

Personally, I would have knocked down her last three in Class Two to Class Three and added La Violette to Class Two. I might have put Hosanna up a notch, but it is so inconsistent.
That is not a very differentiated classification (e.g. there is a vast qualitative gap between the likes of Nenin and Fleur de Gay on the one hand and VCC and Eglise-Clinet on the other, yet they are in the same category) and nor is the analogy with the 1855 classification very helpful.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#60 Post by Jeff Leve » June 29th, 2020, 3:56 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
January 5th, 2018, 9:30 am
Peter Chiu wrote:
If Pomerol did have a classification, it would not be the same as an AOC in Burgundy.

From what I understand, the laws there allow the owner of the Chateaux to label any juice from his newly acquired ( but must be adjacent ) vineyards under the name of his own Chateaux.

For example, if Chateaux Petrus bought up all the vineyards next to his plot - which he now owns - he is allowed to include the all juice from the new acquired vineyards as if they are from Chateaux Petrus.

So....what kind of a *classification* would that be ? [rofl.gif]

I maybe wrong ....but [scratch.gif]


I don´t know what this has to do with my posting above [scratch.gif]

>the laws there allow the owner of the Chateaux to label any juice from his newly acquired ( but must be adjacent ) ...

no, nothing has to be adjacent (not even in the Medoc), it usually has to be in the same class (or get permission).
In Pomerol a new vineyard has only to be of AOC Pomerol ...
In the Medoc, the same rules as you find in Pomerol applies. For example, a First Growth can buy vineyards in the same appellation and add them to their Grand Vin. They do not need permission. However, the trend is to produce less of the Grand Vin these days. Most newly acquired vines go into the second or third wine of a top classified growth.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#61 Post by Alex Novak » June 29th, 2020, 4:00 pm

If you note, I had agreed with you on Nenin and Fleur de Gay, and thought they should be demoted to Ewing-Mulligan's Class Three (along with a couple of other changes). Those other notes comparing to the 1855 Classification were hers as well, although they probably are somewhat helpful in understanding what she means by her rankings. I think this is, however, a decent start, unlike the Clive Coats one or [previous ones here). At least I am in general agreement with most of her choices.

Look at Saint Emilion. That's not exactly a great classification system either. Nor for that matter is the 1855 (and subsequent) classifications particularly accurate today. The issue is, while there are some generally agreed on choices of quality, everyone has their particular taste and quality standards, always making such "rankings" generalizations.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#62 Post by Alex Novak » June 29th, 2020, 4:04 pm

William Kelley wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 3:45 pm
Alex Novak wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 3:03 pm
One decent starting place on a classification is Wikipedia's post on Pomerol, which includes Master of Wine Mary Ewing-Mulligan's 2001 rankings that divided Pomerol into three categories. One flaw was that she ignored a couple of top ones which made fewer than 1,000 cases, most notably La Violette.

Class One (On a par with the First Growths of the Médoc) Château Pétrus and Château Lafleur.

Class Two (On a par with the Second and Third Growths of the Médoc) Château Trotanoy, Château L'Évangile, Vieux Château Certan, Château L'Église-Clinet, Château Clinet, Château La Fleur-Pétrus, Château Clos l'Église, Château La Conseillante, Château Certan de May, Château Latour à Pomerol, Château Nenin and Château La Fleur-de-Gay.

Class Three (On a par with the Fourth and Fifth Growths of the Médoc) Château Petit-Village, Château Feytit-Clinet, Château Rouget, Château Bon-Pasteur, Château La Croix du Casse, Château Gazin, Château La Grave-à-Pomerol, Château le Gay, Château Hosanna and Château la Croix-de-Gay.

Personally, I would have knocked down her last three in Class Two to Class Three and added La Violette to Class Two. I might have put Hosanna up a notch, but it is so inconsistent.
That is not a very differentiated classification (e.g. there is a vast qualitative gap between the likes of Nenin and Fleur de Gay on the one hand and VCC and Eglise-Clinet on the other, yet they are in the same category) and nor is the analogy with the 1855 classification very helpful.

If you note, I had agreed with you on Nenin and Fleur de Gay, and thought they should be demoted to Ewing-Mulligan's Class Three (along with a couple of other changes). Those other notes comparing to the 1855 Classification were hers as well, although they probably are somewhat helpful in understanding what she means by her rankings. I think this is, however, a decent start, unlike the Clive Coats one or [previous ones here). At least I am in general agreement with most of her choices.

Look at Saint Emilion. That's not exactly a great classification system either. Nor for that matter is the 1855 (and subsequent) classifications particularly accurate today. The issue is, while there are some generally agreed on choices of quality, everyone has their particular taste and quality standards, always making such "rankings" generalizations.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#63 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 29th, 2020, 4:15 pm

Le Pin?

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#64 Post by Arv R » June 29th, 2020, 4:18 pm

wow no love for Gazin on that ranking.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#65 Post by Alex Novak » June 29th, 2020, 4:29 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 4:15 pm
Le Pin?
I agree. She left off some of the smaller producers. I would put Le Pin in the Second Class category myself, but others might put it with Petrus and Lafleur. Not me though.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#66 Post by Alex Novak » June 29th, 2020, 4:31 pm

Arv R wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 4:18 pm
wow no love for Gazin on that ranking.
It's gotten better, but I would agree with her on the 3rd Class status for now. Remember that there are quite a few that she didn't give a classification to, so that's not the lowest status.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#67 Post by William Kelley » June 29th, 2020, 4:47 pm

Alex Novak wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 4:31 pm
Arv R wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 4:18 pm
wow no love for Gazin on that ranking.
It's gotten better, but I would agree with her on the 3rd Class status for now. Remember that there are quite a few that she didn't give a classification to, so that's not the lowest status.
Depends on the period also, before the sale of vineyards to Pétrus in the 1960s it was terrific.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#68 Post by Keith Levenberg » June 29th, 2020, 6:19 pm

William Kelley wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 4:47 pm
Alex Novak wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 4:31 pm
Arv R wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 4:18 pm
wow no love for Gazin on that ranking.
It's gotten better, but I would agree with her on the 3rd Class status for now. Remember that there are quite a few that she didn't give a classification to, so that's not the lowest status.
Depends on the period also, before the sale of vineyards to Pétrus in the 1960s it was terrific.
That's interesting, I hadn't known that bit of history. But I have had terrific Gazins both pre- and post-1960s!

Third-growth equivalent in my ranking too.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#69 Post by William Kelley » June 30th, 2020, 5:46 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 6:19 pm
William Kelley wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 4:47 pm
Alex Novak wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 4:31 pm


It's gotten better, but I would agree with her on the 3rd Class status for now. Remember that there are quite a few that she didn't give a classification to, so that's not the lowest status.
Depends on the period also, before the sale of vineyards to Pétrus in the 1960s it was terrific.
That's interesting, I hadn't known that bit of history. But I have had terrific Gazins both pre- and post-1960s!

Third-growth equivalent in my ranking too.
Yes, 4.5 hectares of their best holdings sold to Pétrus in 1969/70!
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#70 Post by Herwig Janssen » June 30th, 2020, 8:50 am

During the glory period of Pomerol ( 1940-1950ies ) , the best wines by far were Petrus , Lafleur and Vieux Chateau Certan . ( i.e. 1945 , 1947 . 1948 , 1950 etc ) . These wines are the best Bordeaux wines I ever tasted .
Today , it is more difficult to differentiate because all these top Pomerols are so powerful and many of them are now at the top of their game .

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#71 Post by Vinod S. » June 30th, 2020, 2:08 pm

Anyone tried the 2012 or 2011 VCC recently? Have some sitting in offsite storage and thought they might be reaching approachability though young.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#72 Post by William Kelley » June 30th, 2020, 2:53 pm

Vinod S. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 2:08 pm
Anyone tried the 2012 or 2011 VCC recently? Have some sitting in offsite storage and thought they might be reaching approachability though young.
Wait a bit longer! They are still pretty primary.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#73 Post by Mark Golodetz » July 1st, 2020, 4:16 am

Of the two, I prefer the 2011, which in a fairly mediocre vintage, really shows well.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#74 Post by A Songeur » July 1st, 2020, 4:42 am

A bit surprised 2005 is mentioned as the starting point for new period of good VCC... as 2004 is excellent (as were 2000 and 1998 I suppose). What has changed?
Had not bought any Pomerol since 2008 VCC, I took the plunge for Clinet 2019... does not rank well here but fingers crossed as it got good reviews. How different is the style compared to say VCC?
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#75 Post by Mark Golodetz » July 1st, 2020, 5:22 am

Chalk and cheese. VCC is quite traditional, has a brightness and energy to it, and makes for wonderful mature wines. Clinet is more modern and opulent, and doesn’t have the bright structure that VCC does. Or I think the aging capability that VCC has. I recently had a 1989 and it was perfectly pleasant, but was just a softer version of the young wine.

As for the 2005 start date, I had been tasting the wines over many years, and really liked rather than loved some of the older modern vintages. Things changed with 2005, when they made an unbelievably good wine which to me catapulted them to the top wines of Pomerol. I have tasted that wine a couple of times since (I bought half bottles as well as other formats). The first time, about five years ago, it was quite closed, but obviously special. Recently it was still immature, but beginning to strut, and I have no doubt that this is one of the stars of the vintage.

Since 2005, I have begun to pay serious attention, and each vintage has been an almost perfect matrix of vintage and terroir. Even 2007.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#76 Post by A Songeur » July 1st, 2020, 9:23 am

Thanks Mark! So, indeed, a jump in the unknown... ageing less may be a bonus as I am not getting any younger... but we shall see...
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#77 Post by A Willi@mson » July 1st, 2020, 1:48 pm

Question for the experts: of the pomerol super seconds (VCC, Trotanoy, Eglise Clinet) which is the value pick of the last decade? ‘12 or ‘14? (‘09, ‘10 and ‘16 sitting clearly in a higher piece&quality bracket)

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#78 Post by Mark Golodetz » July 1st, 2020, 2:42 pm

You don’t need to be an expert for that one. 2014 is clearly the better vintage generally, and very close to the three vintages you mention. I have not tasted the 2012 L’Eglise Clinet Or Trotanoy in bottle, but 2014 is quite good for both. I am a broken record on how good the 2014 VCC is, certainly a possible wine of the vintage. Better than the other two, but getting hard to find.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#79 Post by A Willi@mson » July 1st, 2020, 2:49 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 2:42 pm
You don’t need to be an expert for that one. 2014 is clearly the better vintage generally, and very close to the three vintages you mention. I have not tasted the 2012 L’Eglise Clinet Or Trotanoy in bottle, but 2014 is quite good for both. I am a broken record on how good the 2014 VCC is, certainly a possible wine of the vintage. Better than the other two, but getting hard to find.
Thanks. I ask because the last two bottle of '12 Eglise-Clinet I opened were exceptional and people keep selling me the 14s for less $$s.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#80 Post by William Kelley » July 1st, 2020, 3:10 pm

A Willi@mson wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 1:48 pm
Question for the experts: of the pomerol super seconds (VCC, Trotanoy, Eglise Clinet) which is the value pick of the last decade? ‘12 or ‘14? (‘09, ‘10 and ‘16 sitting clearly in a higher piece&quality bracket)
2011 VCC would win my nomination for value pick of the decade, and if you like more Cabernet Franc-driven Pomerol then maybe not just value.

2012 Eglise-Clinet is brilliant and I think may have the edge over 2014, but didn't ever try them side by side.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#81 Post by Keith Levenberg » July 1st, 2020, 5:59 pm

When the 2012s came out, I was stunned by how good the Pomerols and Graves were and was surprised the vintage had such a poor reputation. I haven't had many since release, but I have a hunch they'll continue delivering surprised smiles for awhile. Comparison to '14 may be on a wine-by-wine basis, but '12 is a vintage that did better in Pomerol than elsewhere and '14 is a vintage that may hit higher highs but did much better in the left bank than Pomerol.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#82 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » July 2nd, 2020, 3:24 pm

William Kelley wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 3:10 pm
A Willi@mson wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 1:48 pm
Question for the experts: of the pomerol super seconds (VCC, Trotanoy, Eglise Clinet) which is the value pick of the last decade? ‘12 or ‘14? (‘09, ‘10 and ‘16 sitting clearly in a higher piece&quality bracket)
2011 VCC would win my nomination for value pick of the decade, and if you like more Cabernet Franc-driven Pomerol then maybe not just value.

2012 Eglise-Clinet is brilliant and I think may have the edge over 2014, but didn't ever try them side by side.
William what is the cepage in the 2011? I recall that the Cab Franc cut was high but don’t recall the numbers.

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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#83 Post by PCLIN » July 2nd, 2020, 9:23 pm

Ian A wrote:
January 2nd, 2018, 2:49 am

Having been lucky enough to try Le Pin a few times in my opinion it definitely should be a first growth equivalent. When we tried the 90 against Petrus, Le Pin was the clear winner.

We had a min-vertical of Petrus vs Le Pin many years ago (late 90’s) for ‘82, ‘85, ‘89, and ‘90 vintages, two were running neck to neck throughout, Sadly also my only experience with those wines. I did have a very slight preference for Le Pin due to its silky tannins but one could flip a coin to decide the outcome.
Last edited by PCLIN on July 3rd, 2020, 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Pomerol did have a classification....?

#84 Post by Kris Patten » July 2nd, 2020, 9:49 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 3:24 pm
William Kelley wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 3:10 pm
A Willi@mson wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 1:48 pm
Question for the experts: of the pomerol super seconds (VCC, Trotanoy, Eglise Clinet) which is the value pick of the last decade? ‘12 or ‘14? (‘09, ‘10 and ‘16 sitting clearly in a higher piece&quality bracket)
2011 VCC would win my nomination for value pick of the decade, and if you like more Cabernet Franc-driven Pomerol then maybe not just value.

2012 Eglise-Clinet is brilliant and I think may have the edge over 2014, but didn't ever try them side by side.
William what is the cepage in the 2011? I recall that the Cab Franc cut was high but don’t recall the numbers.
Not William, but it's my middle name, so pretty sure its 29%.
ITB

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