Deplorable Wine?

I have a friend who has over 3 decades of experience with wine. He knows a quality wine when he encounters one. But I’ve noticed on multiple occasions his reluctance to acknowledge a wine that is overtly corked as such. He wants so desperately for the wine to be good and drinkable. I wonder how common is it for enthusiast to search for redeeming value in wines that are compromised, to one degree or another. For me, once the teachable moment of identifying the flaw or flaws is accomplished, I’m ready to move on to the next experience. I’m interested in knowing other’s attitudes about how much effort they extend to wines that are compromised and what the underlying rational is for their approach. Thanks.

Hi Michael
A good post to ponder.

With TCA I’m not sure I’ve encountered anyone who actually liked or even tolerated it, though I’m aware I am relatively poor at picking it, which I put down to a higher threshold of perception rather than utter incompitence . Thus some may just sense a wine stripped of some of it’s flavour, rather than the full wet dog experience. I don’t doubt there are occasions where a rare, prestige, historic wine is tasted partly out of frustration that such a wine, long looked forward to, is now about to go down the sink, unwanted and wasted. That’s the romance of cork though

For other faults it can very much be a personal preference. A little brett for me is far from a defect, but something I rather enjoy the added complexity and the aromas/flavours it brings. There again I really like truffles, which I’ve described in the past as having a hint of a 3 day old dustbin.

Oxidation can be utterly confusing for wine enthusiasts. No sooner have they learnt that it’s a negative in table wines, someone thrusts a glass of sherry in their hands and tells them it’s brilliant . FWIW there are a small few wine styles where I’m comfortable with a touch of oxidation as part and parcel of the winemaking style, including the likes of Musar white and some white Rioja. These wines still however seem to need the right food and arguably also the right mood. I’m not sure I’ll ever have the right mood to truly enjoy Chateau Chalon, though I can understand why people like the complexity.

Finally there are faults that we accept, because they are a small distraction from an otherwise very interesting, enjoyable & tasty wine. I believe we differ a little here, but then my taste for old wines is definitely not mainstream in the wider world, and I suspect still in the minority across this forum.

Regards
Ian

There are huge differences in individual sensitivity to TCA and other compounds in wine. Some people are six times as sensitive to it as the average, and others are much less sensitive than average. And then there’s the emotional response. I pick up corkiness as quickly as the next average guy, but the smell doesn’t repel me, as it does many people. (I just lament the way it masks and suppresses other flavors and aromas.) So there are several variables.

Brett is another good example. Some people find even a trace repugnant while others like it in small or even moderate doses. (Personally, I seem very insensitive to it.)

Same thing with VA – it’s in virtually all wines but different people have different tolerances, and many winemakers will tell you that, at low levels, it gives aromas a positive lift. How much is too much?

I have a friend ITB who is so sensitive to pyrazines (the things that can give cabernet a green pepper or olive scent) that he can’t stand any wine from grapes in the cabernet family.

Genetics seems to dictate.

I have friends who do the same thing with clearly corked bottles and I am equally baffled. First I will say I am fairly sensitive to TCA and find it very unpleasant, so I get why I have no interest in wines infected with it, what I don’t get is why even those who are not very sensitive to it, but know the wine is flawed would still have interest in the it. What they say is their trying to taste around or though the flaw and I think why? To me what made that wine special and itself is gone, even if you can block out the off putting aroma and flavor what you are left with is still not what you sat down to taste. The TCA has stripped away the essence and life of that wine, so for me there is nothing to gain from what is left.

Some people don’t have the receptors to detect TCA, so the wines taste fine to them. TCA doesn’t directly change anything else in the wine, it messes with your perception. So, similarly, people who have very low sensitivity to it may not notice it, or it might be a very minor element in a wine that is musty and muted to others.

[quote TCA doesn’t directly change anything else in the wine, it messes with your perception.[/quote]

I’m really surprised to see this said knowing that very low levels of TCA can seemingly strip a wine of its fruit. Nevertheless, I’d like to extend the conversation beyond corked wines to include wines subjected to oxidation (prematurely or not) and wines that are severely in decline.

I’m really surprised to see this said knowing that very low levels of TCA can seemingly strip a wine of its fruit.[/quote]

Some bold wines can have massive amounts of TCA and not seem like they’ve lost anything. If you regularly taste in a large group, where alpha douches aren’t able to dominate the conversation and massively skew the group’s perception of the group’s perceptions, you’ll come across wines that half the group don’t think are corked. Some don’t seem to have lost anything, but have that element that’s repulsive to some - perhaps resulting in first and last place votes. Others will be rated low by people who swear they aren’t corked. (Then there are those who are 100% certain that a wine that doesn’t show the level of fruit they expected is corked, because they read something…somewhere…not quite sure where…but, it’s corked!)

I must be your friend’s twin brother.

Insights, please.

My wife often denounces wines as flawed, which I don’t detect.

In general the longer I’ve cellared something personally, the more I’ll try to find redemption in the glass.

Even if, as painful as it might be to admit, the SO might even be correct.

The way we detect if the wine is changed (off) is we perceive the change, wine is an aesthetic experience not an empirical one. Although it would be great if some of the winemaker and chemistry types who check into this board would clarify how TCA affects wines chemistry and taste. For me the change is drastic, looking pasts the musty moldy element, all the other flavors are washed out and flattened.

TCA does not affect the wine chemistry. It doesn’t bond with anything, it doesn’t alter anything chemically in the wine. It’s just an additional thing.

It is an aroma, not a taste, per se. There are about 400 types of aroma receptors that humans can have, but not all humans have all of them. TCA is detected by one of them. Not everyone has it. (Anecdotally, among my wine friends, about 5% are unable to detect TCA.)

Your receptors do the data collection. The sensory processing area of your brain makes sense of that data. TCA interferes with that process the same way tasting a food that is way too spicy-hot for you interferes with your ability to perceive the flavors of that food.

There’s some similarity in that to this broader topic. We vary in our sensitivity to other various flaws, and non-flaws. A larger than normal number of a particular receptor can make a specific wine unpleasant to that person, while it’s fine to everyone else. Also, an unpleasant sense memory can make a perfectly fine wine repulsive to that individual.

For me, a moderately elevated VA can be good. In my tasting group, while a couple of us will be particularly enjoying such a wine, a few others will be recoiling in revulsion at it. At the same time, I’m particularly sensitive to and put off by EA, TCA, aldehydes and excessive bitterness.

Also, people often allow their preconceptions to dominate their perceptions.

So what happens when you have a wine friend who has brought over bottles of corked wine from the cellar and then doesn’t really care when told that the wine is corked, and somehow thinks they are being slighted by your call for bringing over “inferior wine”? Not sure of a diplomatic way to get around this, but I feel he doesn’t have the receptors to tell corked from non-corked, as he’ll drink it all the same.

Yes, I fear I am in that boat, though I try mightily had to resist it! Though if something is very corked (I don’t have a sense of how sensitive I am, at least average if not higher than average, I think?), then I am quick to stop drinking.

My most embarrassing story that isn’t even about a wine I owned, was when I met some friends at a restaurant. They were drinking a rose and quickly poured me a glass. I tasted it and commented on how interesting it tasted. I was trying to figure out the grape, what the winemaker was trying to do, etc. I kept sipping it and then commented that it reminded me of clorox. A friend tasted it, nearly spit it out and said, Ron, that does taste like bleach! Apparently the glass had been washed in bleach but not rinsed.

On a more serious note, I do think I (and many of us?) who are adventurous try to keep an open mind about new tastes and experiences. I realize this is slightly different than what was raised by the OP, but similar enough that I thought to recount it.

Hmmm,. Obviously some diplomacy is needed here, but if they are truly a “wine friend,” they should have some sense of the fact that wines can be corked, and that it has nothing to do with the person who happens to own or is sharing the wine. I have certainly brought wines over to friends that have been corked and I insist that we stop drinking it.

Wes,
I am not trying to start a something here but just because you can’t taste the flaw does not mean there is no flaw. If you taste a bottle that is tainted with TCA next to one that is not, there is a difference, I have experienced it many times.

Michael, I see this happening occasionally and I think, beyond perception differences, a good deal has to do with us wanting our wine to show well and to please others. There`s also an awareness factor that comes into play here as I find some who have been collectors for a long time still not picking up TCA, VA, Brett and oxidation notes.

Yes, definitely compassion is needed. The person may have carefully cellared that wine for years, and chosen it specially for the occasion. They are ‘invested’ in it being enjoyable.

With my relatively low perception of TCA, this is easier for me to do quite genuinely, but I almost always would NOT say “it’s corked”, but rather say “would you have a taste, I think it might be corked” (or similar). It is so stupid that we beat ourselves up over bringing a wine that turns out to be corked, when we didn’t make the wine, or take the decision to seal it with tree bark. It’s not our fault and if it’s another person who brought it, we should always make it clear that no blame whatsoever rests with them. We are just innocent victims of the industry sticking it’s head in the sand for decades. Same goes for Poxed white Burgundy.

So what happens when you have a wine friend who has brought over bottles of corked wine from the cellar and then doesn’t really care when told that the wine is corked, and somehow thinks they are being slighted by your call for bringing over “inferior wine”? Not sure of a diplomatic way to get around this, but I feel he doesn’t have the receptors to tell corked from non-corked, as he’ll drink it all the same.[/quote]

Hmmm,. Obviously some diplomacy is needed here, but if they are truly a “wine friend,” they should have some sense of the fact that wines can be corked, and that it has nothing to do with the person who happens to own or is sharing the wine. I have certainly brought wines over to friends that have been corked and I insist that we stop drinking it.[/quote]

Yes, definitely compassion is needed. The person may have carefully cellared that wine for years, and chosen it specially for the occasion. They are ‘invested’ in it being enjoyable.

With my relatively low perception of TCA, this is easier for me to do quite genuinely, but I almost always would NOT say “it’s corked”, but rather say “would you have a taste, I think it might be corked” (or similar). It is so stupid that we beat ourselves up over bringing a wine that turns out to be corked, when we didn’t make the wine, or take the decision to seal it with tree bark. It’s not our fault and if it’s another person who brought it, we should always make it clear that no blame whatsoever rests with them. We are just innocent victims of the industry sticking it’s head in the sand for decades. Same goes for Poxed white Burgundy.[/quote]


I agree Ian re TCA, but an oxidised wine can implicate poor storage or a poor buying decision where provenance was questionable or not questioned.

That sounds like my very good wine friend. I am the only one who detects TCA, although his wife agrees with me when I point it out, but he remains annoyed and insulted. It is almost satisfying for me when I point out my bottle is corked.