Nebbiolo Rose

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Nebbiolo Rose

#1 Post by john stimson »

I bought a few Cogno Barolo Riserva Bricco Elena 2010 a while back, which I understand is all Nebbiolo Rose. I've never actually had the wine, but I've enjoyed the di Gresy Martinenga, which I think is 20 or so percent Rose, for it's perfume and sort of light-weight power. Does anyone have a feel for how the N. Rose ages--is it a typical barolo curve, or is there some other aging pattern?

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Nebbiolo Rose.....Confusing...

#2 Post by TomHill »

john stimson wrote:I bought a few Cogno Barolo Riserva Bricco Elena 2010 a while back, which I understand is all Nebbiolo Rose. I've never actually had the wine, but I've enjoyed the di Gresy Martinenga, which I think is 20 or so percent Rose, for it's perfume and sort of light-weight power. Does anyone have a feel for how the N. Rose ages--is it a typical barolo curve, or is there some other aging pattern?
The situation of Nebbiolo Rose and Rose Nebbiolo is very confusing. From Wikipedia:
Wiki wrote: This research would further suggest a parent-offspring relationship between Nebbiolo and several Italian grapes including Freisa, Bubbierasco, Nebbiolo Rosé, and Vespolina of the Piedmont region, and the Lombardy grapes Negrara and Rossola nera.[1] Additional DNA analysis also suggest a parent-offspring relationship with the Lombardy grape Brugnola, previously thought to be only a synonym for the Emilia-Romagna grape Fortana.[4]
and
Pedia wrote: Like many varieties (such as Pinot noir) with ancient pedigree, the Nebbiolo vine is genetically unstable and prone to mutation. As of 2001, there were around 40 different clones of Nebbiolo identified.[2] The three main strains used for winemaking are Lampia, Michet and Rosé Nebbiolo (which is distinct from the grape variety called Nebbiolo Rosé). Rosé Nebbiolo has fallen out of favor in recent years due to its wine's light coloring.
So there's a variety "Nebbiolo Rose", distinct from Nebbiolo, and a clone of Nebbiolo "Rose Nebbiolo". My understanding is the Cogno is from the separate variety "Nebbiolo Rose".
Before they had Lampia/Michet, FPS distributed a Nebbiolo Rose for many yrs. Which one it is, variety or clone, I have no idea.
As for the aging pattern....I have no idea. But...hey...I'm a LosAlamos guy...we make stuff up!! [snort.gif] I would guess it pretty much like any
other Nebbiolo.
I'll see if I can get clarification from Darrell.
Tom

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Nebbiolo Rose.....Confusing...

#3 Post by John Morris »

I didn't realize there was also Nebbiolo Rose. You sometimes feel that the Italians dream up alternative names for the same grape and confusingly similar names for utterly different grapes just to throw us off their trails.
TomHill wrote:My understanding is the Cogno is from the separate variety "Nebbiolo Rose".
Indeed, that is what the winery's website indicates:
"Grape variety: rosé, a sub-variety of nebbiolo"

"We use the same nebbiolo clone (100% Rosè for many years now), cultivation system and yield, use of native yeasts, and aging in large
barrels."
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Nebbiolo Rose.....Confusing...Yup....

#4 Post by TomHill »

John Morris wrote:I didn't realize there was also Nebbiolo Rose. You sometimes feel that the Italians dream up alternative names for the same grape and confusingly similar names for utterly different grapes just to throw us off their trails.
TomHill wrote:My understanding is the Cogno is from the separate variety "Nebbiolo Rose".
Indeed, that is what the winery's website indicates:
"Grape variety: rosé, a sub-variety of nebbiolo"

"We use the same nebbiolo clone (100% Rosè for many years now), cultivation system and yield, use of native yeasts, and aging in large
barrels."
I saw that as well, John. But I've heard of clones being referred to as "sub-varieties" as well. So the interpretation
of that term may be questionable. It's a bit ambiguous I think.
Tom

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Nebbiolo Rose

#5 Post by Ian Sutton »

Ian d'Agata has Nebbiolo Rose as a 1st degree relative of Nebbiolo i.e. parent / child relationship.
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Nebbiolo Rose

#6 Post by John Morris »

Yes, Ian has it right. And D'Amato is the authority.

Tom - I didn't read your post clearly and so my post is confused.

After reading Ian D'Amato's entry (Native Grape Varieties of Italy, pp. 355-356), I think you and Wikipedia are mistaken, too. D'Amato says that the latest research shows that Rosé Nebbiolo is a distinct species. Michet, meanwhile, turns out to be just a virus-infected Lampia. The bottom line: There are only two types of nebbiolo -- Rosé and Lampia, and Rosé is not just a variant. Rosé is either a parent to or a cross with Lampia.
Nebbiolo Lampia, at the current state of knowledge, has to be considered the main or 'real' Nebbiolo variety. Nebbiolo rosé is instead distinct from Nebbiolo (and hence I treat it separately in this book, as should every other wine writer), but it has a first-degree relationship with Nebbiolo.
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Thanks...

#7 Post by TomHill »

Ian Sutton wrote:Ian d'Agata has Nebbiolo Rose as a 1st degree relative of Nebbiolo i.e. parent / child relationship.
Thanks, Ian. I was going to check out d'Agata when I got home. That's such a good book,
maybe I should buy a 2'nd copy for use at the office!! [snort.gif]
Does it identify the other parent of NebbRose?
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Nebbiolo Rose

#8 Post by Phil David »

Technically they're all cultivars, not varieties.

Jamie Goode explains: http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/wine ... is-a-clone

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#9 Post by John Morris »

As I just edited my comment to say, Rosé is either a parent of Lampia or a cross with Lampia. But in either case, we don't know what the other grape was.

For what it's worth, D'Amato says that Cogno's Rosé was from clone CN 111.
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Nebbiolo Rose

#10 Post by John Morris »

Phil David wrote:Technically they're all cultivars, not varieties.

Jamie Goode explains: http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/wine ... is-a-clone
As I understand D'Amato, that was the established view but was shown to be wrong by research since 2000.
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NitPicking...

#11 Post by TomHill »

John Morris wrote:
Phil David wrote:Technically they're all cultivars, not varieties.

Jamie Goode explains: http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/wine ... is-a-clone
As I understand D'Amato, that was the established view but was shown to be wrong by research since 2000.
John,
Thanks for clarifying things. That's very helpful. Just to NitPick...it's d'Agata...which I'm sure you knew.
I pulsed Darrell on the question, but have not heard back yet.
Anyway...I'd love to try a Nebbiolo Rose sometime. I'm certain it's a variety they should be planting
all up & down the Coast of Calif!! [stirthepothal.gif]
Tom

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NitPicking...

#12 Post by John Morris »

TomHill wrote:Just to NitPick...it's d'Agata...which I'm sure you knew.
Bu#*er. I can't tell you how many times I've made that mistake. Must be influenced this time by the fact that I was sampling amari on Tuesday. At least, that's my excuse.
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Nebbiolo Rose

#13 Post by john stimson »

Yes, but no one has attempted to answer the question yet--how does N. rose (which is a different grape than the nebbiolo we're familiar with) age?

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#14 Post by John Morris »

I think it's hard to answer because Cogno is the only winery bottling a 100% Rosé Barolo. D'Agata says that Marchese di Gresy's Martinenga is 20-30% rosé.
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#15 Post by Gregory Dal Piaz »

Vietti Briacca was 100% Rose. It aged well. Tannins similar to typical Nebbiolo, color lighter, perhaps more fragrant and light on the palate. so the tannic bite might be more noticeable. Vintages from the 70s, I've only seen and had bottlings from the 70s, are at the very end of peak or on the downslope so from a very limited sample set I would say that they age more quickly than Lampia/Michet, but slowly enough. Modern tannin management probably yields a wine that has better balance as well. I sometimes find a little coarseness to the tannins of Walter's Vigna Elena, but nothing that time shouldn't polish out. I have some of the 2010 in my cellar and I will start drinking them on the same schedule as the rest of the 2010s. With a few exceptions, I plan on really revisiting the vintage starting in about 2025.
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Nebbiolo Rose

#16 Post by Arnt Egil Nordlien »

The old Barbarescos from Enrico Giovannini-Moresco was made from nebbiolo rose. They aged well. Viettis Briacca is mentioned. Also Cascina Baricci makes one (I think 2005 was the first vintage) named Rose delle Casasse. This is a project trying to copy the style of Giovannini-Moresco.
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#17 Post by Gregory Dal Piaz »

Arnt Egil Nordlien wrote:The old Barbarescos from Enrico Giovannini-Moresco was made from nebbiolo rose. They aged well. Viettis Briacca is mentioned. Also Cascina Baricci makes one (I think 2005 was the first vintage) named Rose delle Casasse. This is a project trying to copy the style of Giovannini-Moresco.
The Baricchi is a lovely wine, typical Rose clone, light and elegant but also from 100 year old vines and 100 day fermentations making it a particular wine. Tannin management is excellent. Looking forward to watching them age.
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Nebbiolo Rose

#18 Post by john stimson »

Gregory Dal Piaz wrote:Vietti Briacca was 100% Rose. It aged well. Tannins similar to typical Nebbiolo, color lighter, perhaps more fragrant and light on the palate. so the tannic bite might be more noticeable. Vintages from the 70s, I've only seen and had bottlings from the 70s, are at the very end of peak or on the downslope so from a very limited sample set I would say that they age more quickly than Lampia/Michet, but slowly enough. Modern tannin management probably yields a wine that has better balance as well. I sometimes find a little coarseness to the tannins of Walter's Vigna Elena, but nothing that time shouldn't polish out. I have some of the 2010 in my cellar and I will start drinking them on the same schedule as the rest of the 2010s. With a few exceptions, I plan on really revisiting the vintage starting in about 2015.
So how were they? Greg--I presume you meant 2025?

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#19 Post by Gregory Dal Piaz »

john stimson wrote:
Gregory Dal Piaz wrote:Vietti Briacca was 100% Rose. It aged well. Tannins similar to typical Nebbiolo, color lighter, perhaps more fragrant and light on the palate. so the tannic bite might be more noticeable. Vintages from the 70s, I've only seen and had bottlings from the 70s, are at the very end of peak or on the downslope so from a very limited sample set I would say that they age more quickly than Lampia/Michet, but slowly enough. Modern tannin management probably yields a wine that has better balance as well. I sometimes find a little coarseness to the tannins of Walter's Vigna Elena, but nothing that time shouldn't polish out. I have some of the 2010 in my cellar and I will start drinking them on the same schedule as the rest of the 2010s. With a few exceptions, I plan on really revisiting the vintage starting in about 2015.
So how were they? Greg--I presume you meant 2025?
D'oh! You are correct, sir.

I'll go and change that now.
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Nebbiolo Rose

#20 Post by john stimson »

here's Ian d'Agata's note from the Vinous board:

It is a grape variety I know extremely well and that I have tracked down incessantly, in every single plot where I had heard it might still be growing, over the last thirty years. I for one think it's an absolute tragedy that producers in Langhe have systematically done away with it over the years (starting in the late 80s while running after a model of richer, darker Barolos then more fashionable). Now of course most wish they had left their rows in, but it's a matter of too little too late for many of them. Short of replanting it, that is.

In short, Nebbiolo Rosé's profile is best summed up as perfumed on the nose, and austere on the palate. Over time, the eprfume tends to linger and expand (very strong rose petal note, which is strong already as it is in Nebbiolo proper) and an acidic spine that makes the wine seem rigd in its youth (perhaps more than just 'seems', as Nebbiolo Rosé does not express anywhere near the same amount of rich fruit that does Nebbiolo) but it opens over time to reveal sneaky concentration and richness. They are always wines of extreme refinement but my impression is they may age less long than those made with Nebbiolo (but it's amatetr of ten years plus or minus, it's not a s if the thing dies out after 8-10 years ). The main difficulty today in sizing up exactly what Nebbiolo Rosé can give is that there are very few producers making a monovareity wine from it, but Cogno of course is one of them. To give you an idea, di Gresy's regular Barbaresco is apparently about 20% Nebbiolo Rosé (you can tell just by looking at the color) and it has no problem aging well. Hope that helps. Ian


Antonio also posted a comment about how much he loved the Vietti Briacca 1978 and posted his tasting note. the vines have all been pulled up and the land is now part of Rocche.

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#21 Post by John Morris »

Arnt Egil Nordlien wrote:The old Barbarescos from Enrico Giovannini-Moresco was made from nebbiolo rose. They aged well. Viettis Briacca is mentioned. Also Cascina Baricci makes one (I think 2005 was the first vintage) named Rose delle Casasse. This is a project trying to copy the style of Giovannini-Moresco.
According to D'Agata, Gaja, who bought the Moresco plot in the Pajore vineyard, says that it wasn't in fact rose.
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Nebbiolo Rose

#22 Post by john stimson »

For those of you who have access to Vinous, really nice long post from Levi Dalton about his long term quest with regard to nebbiolo rose, too long to cut and paste.

(Also some additional info from Ian. I didn't realize there's a lot of Rose planted in Vatellina)

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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#23 Post by Kirk.Grant »

I thought this might be worth bringing back up. Does anyone know of another 100% Nebbiolo Rose?
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#24 Post by john stimson »

I'm not aware of one, at least in barolo/barbaresco. there are a number of wines that include some rose (20-50%), but I'm not aware of any others that are 100%. (Again, the Vinous thread that I started from 2017 is a tremendous resource, but be forewarned that it subsequently in 2019 degenerated into a firestorm involving plagiarism accusations between the principal information sources...)

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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#25 Post by M. Meer »

All of the wines in my cellar are underrated. Everything that is not is overrated.
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#26 Post by john stimson »

Yeah, I forgot about that one. I think that's the only other 100% one that's current. There are a few past wines no longer made that were 100%. (Vietti Barolo Briacca, Maresco Barbaresco Pajore--although some question if was actually Rose--, One year of Mascarello Barolo Pugnane, etc. Info from Levi Dalton, BTW.)

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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#27 Post by M. Meer »

Yes, I believe most went out with the 1982 vintage. On the plus side, if they managed to make old bones, they should be pretty good right now.
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#28 Post by Dav1d S@wyer »

Was inspired by this thread and bought some back vintage Elvio Cogno Vigna Elenas. Just posted a TN thread on the 2004. Great, great wine that was consistent with comments here about Nebbiolo Rose.
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#29 Post by Noah C »

From what I understand most Nebbiolo based wines are a mixture of various cultivars/clones/whatever you want call them. These varieties were not well understood or definitively identified when most vineyards were planted, so the majority of Nebbiolo based wines are field blends of a sort. While they differ slightly in terms of color extraction, flavor profile, etc, their general nature is more similar than different. Aging profiles and character of the wine they produce are all going to be about the same. Barolo legend Lorenzo Accomasso touched on this topic in Levi Dalton’s most recent podcast, and even he says he can barely tell the difference most of the time!
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#30 Post by Michael_H »

My understanding is that at this point there is really only significant amount of the Lampia and Michet biotypes, at least in the Langhe. Like most (all?) widely grown grape varieties, there are a large number of different clones though. As mentioned above, Nebbiolo Rose is genetically distinct from Nebbiolo and has been mostly ripped up. Speaking of Nebbiolo Rose, D'Agata notes that Brovia has a couple of parcels of pure Nebbiolo Rose but doesn't say in which MGA - does anyone know which of their cru(s) have the Nebbiolo Rose?
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#31 Post by Chris Blum »

I came here ready to talk about rosé made from Nebbiolo 🤓
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#32 Post by Michael_H »

Chris Blum wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 2:01 pm I came here ready to talk about rosé made from Nebbiolo 🤓
Start a new thread! I'd join you champagne.gif
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#33 Post by Otto Forsberg »

Noah C wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:03 pm From what I understand most Nebbiolo based wines are a mixture of various cultivars/clones/whatever you want call them. These varieties were not well understood or definitively identified when most vineyards were planted, so the majority of Nebbiolo based wines are field blends of a sort. While they differ slightly in terms of color extraction, flavor profile, etc, their general nature is more similar than different. Aging profiles and character of the wine they produce are all going to be about the same. Barolo legend Lorenzo Accomasso touched on this topic in Levi Dalton’s most recent podcast, and even he says he can barely tell the difference most of the time!
Cultivars and clones are two very different things, not a matter of choosing which term to use.

To my understanding, there are only a few different clones of Nebbiolo in Piedmont. I've no idea if those cultivated in Lombardia or Aosta are the same or different.
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#34 Post by Levi Dalton »

Noah C wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:03 pm From what I understand most Nebbiolo based wines are a mixture of various cultivars/clones/whatever you want call them. These varieties were not well understood or definitively identified when most vineyards were planted, so the majority of Nebbiolo based wines are field blends of a sort. While they differ slightly in terms of color extraction, flavor profile, etc, their general nature is more similar than different. Aging profiles and character of the wine they produce are all going to be about the same. Barolo legend Lorenzo Accomasso touched on this topic in Levi Dalton’s most recent podcast, and even he says he can barely tell the difference most of the time!
I disagree with most of this post, but specifically I came here to note that this is a mischaracterization of what Lorenzo Accomasso actually did say on the recording, which was the opposite. He specifically said that Michet, for instance, "gives a different wine" from Lampia, and he also indicated what is different about Nebbiolo Rosé, in his opinion.

I think it is only right that if you are going to use people's names in citing them, that you at least make some effort to characterize what they said in a way that is accurate to what was said. Which is on tape.

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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#35 Post by Michael_H »

To add to my previous post, I think it is important that we align on terminology to describe what we are talking about. Cultivars and clones are very different and the italians like to group similar clones together as biotypes (if I have the wrong, please correct me).

Regarding this discussion, Nebbiolo Rose and Nebbiolo are both distinct cultivars (varieties!) not clones. In the Langhe you will hear people really only talk about 2 different biotypes - Nebbiolo Lampia and Nebbiolo Michet. Nebbiolo Michet is just Nebbiolo Lampia with a virus that makes it slightly different. There used to be Nebbiolo Bolla, which was super productive, but my understanding is there isn't much of it anymore. There are several different clones that are widely planted of both Lampia and Michet. IIRC, D'Agata references a handful of common clones for each biotype in his native wine grapes book, without looking it up I think it was about half a dozen for each.

I think it is definitely a mischaracterization to say that nebbiolo based wines are any sort of field blend. There are clear phenotypic differences between the main biotypes and also between Nebbiolo and Nebbiolo Rose. Regarding planting, they have clearly identified distinct clones of each biotype and when one goes to replant a vineyard they specify the clone type from the nursery, if not doing a massal selection, and this has been no secret for decades now.

Otto, to your point there actually is a different biotype that is very common in Aosta, Nebbiolo Picotener is very common and actually made its way to the Langhe but didn't yield the best results there.

Levi, thanks for chiming in on this thread. Your podcasts have been invaluable in my personal wine education.
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#36 Post by Chris Blum »

Michael_H wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 2:10 pm
Chris Blum wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 2:01 pm I came here ready to talk about rosé made from Nebbiolo 🤓
Start a new thread! I'd join you champagne.gif
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#37 Post by Noah C »

Levi Dalton wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:01 pm
Noah C wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 1:03 pm From what I understand most Nebbiolo based wines are a mixture of various cultivars/clones/whatever you want call them. These varieties were not well understood or definitively identified when most vineyards were planted, so the majority of Nebbiolo based wines are field blends of a sort. While they differ slightly in terms of color extraction, flavor profile, etc, their general nature is more similar than different. Aging profiles and character of the wine they produce are all going to be about the same. Barolo legend Lorenzo Accomasso touched on this topic in Levi Dalton’s most recent podcast, and even he says he can barely tell the difference most of the time!
I disagree with most of this post, but specifically I came here to note that this is a mischaracterization of what Lorenzo Accomasso actually did say on the recording, which was the opposite. He specifically said that Michet, for instance, "gives a different wine" from Lampia, and he also indicated what is different about Nebbiolo Rosé, in his opinion.

I think it is only right that if you are going to use people's names in citing them, that you at least make some effort to characterize what they said in a way that is accurate to what was said. Which is on tape.
Levi- Mea culpa. You are (of course) absolutely right about what Accomasso said and I appreciate the correction. I just listened back to the pertinent part of the episode, and I completely misremembered his message; in fact, I had it totally turned around. That's what I get for stating something I think I remember as fact without double checking beforehand. Thanks for chiming in and keep up the great work! [oops.gif]
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#38 Post by Chris Seiber »

Chris Blum wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 2:01 pm I came here ready to talk about rosé made from Nebbiolo 🤓
I had a Conterno Nervi Rosato a month or so ago, it was excellent. A rose made from nebbiolo in the Alto Piemonte. Super crisp, fresh, long, minerally. Probably would age pretty well, but I'd probably go for its youthful freshness.

https://www.cellartracker.com/classic/w ... ne=3695201

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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#39 Post by Otto Forsberg »

Michael_H wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:39 pm Otto, to your point there actually is a different biotype that is very common in Aosta, Nebbiolo Picotener is very common and actually made its way to the Langhe but didn't yield the best results there.
Alright, thank you! I knew Picotener was a synonym for Nebbiolo, but I didn't know it was a distinct clone/biotype. Do you have any idea how it differs from Lampia?

And does anyone know what they grow in Alto Piemonte and/or Lombardy?

A propos, I read an interesting article some while back on the effect of temperature during the growth cycle on Nebbiolo. IIRC in the article they recorded the temperatures over the growth cycle in different vineyards in Langhe, Alto Piemonte and Carema, made technical analyses on the grapes during the harvest and assessed the resulting wines that were vinified identically to each other.

What the research showed was that in Nebbiolo tannins and color compounds seemed to grow opposite to each other: the warmer it was, the more tannins the grape produced, but also the more it lost color. The wines made with grapes grown in Langhe were the most substantial with the highest level of alcohol, but also had the lightest, most transparent color, whereas the cooler the temperatures were, the less Nebbiolo lost its color and the darker were the wines.

This just popped to my mind from mentioning Alto Piemonte as some people I know have wondered whether the producers still blend other varieties in their wines in Alto Piemonte (where the practice is perfectly allowed in many appellations) when tasting wines that are supposed to be 100% Nebbiolo but are surprisingly dark for the variety. It seems most likely it's just the temperature doing its thing.
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#40 Post by Mikael OB »

Otto Forsberg wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 10:45 pm
Michael_H wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:39 pm Otto, to your point there actually is a different biotype that is very common in Aosta, Nebbiolo Picotener is very common and actually made its way to the Langhe but didn't yield the best results there.
Alright, thank you! I knew Picotener was a synonym for Nebbiolo, but I didn't know it was a distinct clone/biotype. Do you have any idea how it differs from Lampia?
I think this might depend on where you grow picotener (and Lampia) but if I understood correctly, then for the Barolo area it gives dark color and is less aromatic than Lampia.
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#41 Post by Levi Dalton »

Noah C wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 8:21 pm
Levi- Mea culpa. You are (of course) absolutely right about what Accomasso said and I appreciate the correction. I just listened back to the pertinent part of the episode, and I completely misremembered his message; in fact, I had it totally turned around. That's what I get for stating something I think I remember as fact without double checking beforehand. Thanks for chiming in and keep up the great work! [oops.gif]
Noah,

Hey, no problem. Mistakes happen. I understand.

Thanks for listening to the show.

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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#42 Post by Levi Dalton »

Michael_H wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:39 pm
Levi, thanks for chiming in on this thread. Your podcasts have been invaluable in my personal wine education.
That's great, glad to hear.

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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#43 Post by Michael_H »

Otto Forsberg wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 10:45 pm
Michael_H wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:39 pm Otto, to your point there actually is a different biotype that is very common in Aosta, Nebbiolo Picotener is very common and actually made its way to the Langhe but didn't yield the best results there.
Alright, thank you! I knew Picotener was a synonym for Nebbiolo, but I didn't know it was a distinct clone/biotype. Do you have any idea how it differs from Lampia?

And does anyone know what they grow in Alto Piemonte and/or Lombardy?

A propos, I read an interesting article some while back on the effect of temperature during the growth cycle on Nebbiolo. IIRC in the article they recorded the temperatures over the growth cycle in different vineyards in Langhe, Alto Piemonte and Carema, made technical analyses on the grapes during the harvest and assessed the resulting wines that were vinified identically to each other.

What the research showed was that in Nebbiolo tannins and color compounds seemed to grow opposite to each other: the warmer it was, the more tannins the grape produced, but also the more it lost color. The wines made with grapes grown in Langhe were the most substantial with the highest level of alcohol, but also had the lightest, most transparent color, whereas the cooler the temperatures were, the less Nebbiolo lost its color and the darker were the wines.

This just popped to my mind from mentioning Alto Piemonte as some people I know have wondered whether the producers still blend other varieties in their wines in Alto Piemonte (where the practice is perfectly allowed in many appellations) when tasting wines that are supposed to be 100% Nebbiolo but are surprisingly dark for the variety. It seems most likely it's just the temperature doing its thing.
Hey Otto, you motivated me to actually open up a couple reference works to see what it is that they grow in the Alto Piemonte. It looks like it is the essentially the same as the Langhe; that is that Lampia and Michet are far and away the most prevelant Nebbiolo biotypes and Nebbiolo Rose could be found there too. I couldn't get a sense for what the relative proportions of each is and if that differs from the Langhe, but at the very least it looks like they are starting with similar stuff there.

Regarding mixing of other varieties in the Alto Piemonte, it is my understanding that it is still extremely common to do that throughout the Alto Piemonte. Unless you are drinking a bottle that says it is 100% Nebbiolo, I'd actually assume that there is some vespolina, uva rara, and/or croatina in there as well. In fact, the appellation rules for Boca, Bramaterra, Fara, and Sizzano don't even allow for 100% Nebbiolo. The other major appellations of the Alto Piemonte at least require a minimum of 85% Nebbiolo - your explanation of cooler climate influencing the darker color still definitely makes a whole lot of sense to me.
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#44 Post by Otto Forsberg »

Michael_H wrote: February 24th, 2021, 6:04 am Hey Otto, you motivated me to actually open up a couple reference works to see what it is that they grow in the Alto Piemonte. It looks like it is the essentially the same as the Langhe; that is that Lampia and Michet are far and away the most prevelant Nebbiolo biotypes and Nebbiolo Rose could be found there too. I couldn't get a sense for what the relative proportions of each is and if that differs from the Langhe, but at the very least it looks like they are starting with similar stuff there.
Great to know, thanks!
Regarding mixing of other varieties in the Alto Piemonte, it is my understanding that it is still extremely common to do that throughout the Alto Piemonte. Unless you are drinking a bottle that says it is 100% Nebbiolo, I'd actually assume that there is some vespolina, uva rara, and/or croatina in there as well. In fact, the appellation rules for Boca, Bramaterra, Fara, and Sizzano don't even allow for 100% Nebbiolo. The other major appellations of the Alto Piemonte at least require a minimum of 85% Nebbiolo - your explanation of cooler climate influencing the darker color still definitely makes a whole lot of sense to me.
Yes, just to be clear, in this case I meant wines that are according to the producer made exclusively from Nebbiolo.

I can try to see if I can find that specific article.
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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#45 Post by john stimson »

Perhaps this is buried somewhere in these Nebbiolo Rose threads, but I wonder if anyone has a ready list at the tip of their fingers of wines that still contain a substantial portion of Rose. The 100% wines are one thing, but there are a number of wines that contain 20-30-50% (at least I think that's the case). There have been 2 recent comments by posters here that Vajra Ravera contains quite a bit (?50%). Marchesi di Gresy Martinenga is another. And I believe Levi mentioned Vietti Lazzarito? What are some others with substantial percentages?

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Re: Nebbiolo Rose

#46 Post by Noah C »

Levi Dalton wrote: February 24th, 2021, 4:53 am
Noah C wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 8:21 pm
Levi- Mea culpa. You are (of course) absolutely right about what Accomasso said and I appreciate the correction. I just listened back to the pertinent part of the episode, and I completely misremembered his message; in fact, I had it totally turned around. That's what I get for stating something I think I remember as fact without double checking beforehand. Thanks for chiming in and keep up the great work! [oops.gif]
Noah,

Hey, no problem. Mistakes happen. I understand.

Thanks for listening to the show.
Levi Dalton is a class act!
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