Why I do not score wines...

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Marc Frontario
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Why I do not score wines...

#1 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 7:38 am

I am adding on to the thoughtful comments of Subu Ramachandran in the Leve thread...In the last couple years I stopped attaching a score to wines...The reasoning is, how can you apply a fixed score to something that is constantly evolving and changing?....and sometimes not for the best....I guess we see the sliding scale range like 90-93 for example, but for me this still doesn't work...where are the 93-90 descending sliding scale scores? Truth is, many of these wines fall apart just a often as they improve. I guess as a critic you have to play nice to a certain degree, play the game etc... Sure I have seen the rare ( - ) added to a score (does this is add a smidge of street cred. for the critic?) Regardless, this happens very few and far between.

Another reason is, I have seen a wine change so dramatic over the next day or two that if I was to apply a score it would have looked like this: 84-92pts. (8points in 24hrs!!) Plus if you look at the Parker scoring you could have a superior tasting wine rated much lower in score than an inferior tasting wine. I believe most tasters are going to go more by taste than anything, again a disconnect.

for example:

wine 1: 50+20(taste)+9 (nose)+3 (color) +8 (overall quality) score: 90 points

wine 2: 50+17(taste)+13 (nose)+5 (color) +9 (overall quality) score: 94 points

If you didn't see this broken down you would choose the inferior tasting (wine #2) majority of the time

I have seen it too many times to count, disappointed tasters, sitting there dumbfounded declaring, "I don't get it, this got 93 points"

So again, there is disconnect for consumers. Therefore, if you are the score a wine I suggest breaking the scoring down in an itemized fashion. Then if you wanted to add a sliding scale to this, tell me what components you think are going to improve or decline based on your experience? This is probably asking way too much, but in a perfect world...though I believe a scoring breakdown in general would be a nice start.


Maybe I missed some of the previous debates on this, but please tell me I'm not a fuqn outlier here?
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#2 Post by T. Altmayer » August 2nd, 2017, 8:04 am

Whether its score or verbal affirmation of some sort, a meaningful tasting note should describe whether or not the taster actually enjoyed the wine or at least whether the wine was well made for that style of wine. I can't tell you how many tasting notes I've read on this Board and wondered whether the person actually liked the wine or whether they were simply good at I-Spy. Of course I want to know the flavor profile and whether it was balanced, but in the end the sum is more important than the parts.
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#3 Post by GregT » August 2nd, 2017, 8:33 am

wine 1: 50+20(taste)+9 (nose)+3 (color) +8 (overall quality) score: 90 points

wine 2: 50+17(taste)+13 (nose)+5 (color) +9 (overall quality) score: 94 points
It's why I don't understand most people's tasting notes.

Points for color?

Points for the aroma?

"It stinks but I really like it but I can only give it 89 because it didn't do so well on the smell test and besides, I don't think the color really works."


Points are only a quick way to indicate whether or not you like a wine. They're convenient if someone cares to know your opinion without reading the verbiage. They're nothing absolute, and since most people aren't great tasters anyway, their likes and dislikes are not particularly important, and their verbiage is less so.

Parker points used to matter, some of the WS points did, and that's about it. Nobody buys a wine because Jancis gave it 18.5 points, at least not enough people to matter in the market, and same with anyone else. Look at all the threads congratulating this or that wine maker when he gets high Parker scores, and try to find one that congratulates anyone for anyone else's scores.

People will buy points because there's a shelf talker that says 92 points, but in that case, it really doesn't matter who that shelf talker is from and it's not really worth the reviewer worrying about. If Vinous hands out 84 points and Suckling hands out 93 for the same wine, no retailer will use the Vinous points so they won't matter. If no "name" reviewer hands out 93 points but some lady down the block does, retailers will use that lady's score. Leve scores and Dunnuck scores are pretty much like that lady's.

Some people on boards like this will have favorite reviewers and buy things based on their fave's suggestions, but it's miniscule numbers of people who buy from those reviews, even here. Shelf talkers on the other hand, sell exclusively by points, not by reviews, and it doesn't matter whose points those are because the customer is just looking for some kind of validation from someone.

So if you're not Parker, it doesn't pay to worry about the "accuracy" of your scores.

If people like Jeff and others care to write about wine, that's nice - it's their passion so why not. But nobody is moving the market. Attaching a score is just a shorthand way of telling you how much they liked a wine at a particular time and place. There's no need to worry about accuracy - what's the dif between two points in either direction?

OTOH, if they say they really loved a Chardonnay but didn't care for the dark brown color and so only scored it 90 points, draw your own conclusions.
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#4 Post by Bdklein » August 2nd, 2017, 8:36 am

I give this thread a 92 but after a few more posts and a day or 2 to get some legs it could be a 95.
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#5 Post by GregT » August 2nd, 2017, 8:39 am

Good point. Threads are always better with some air. It's why I generally try not to read until the second day.
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#6 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 8:48 am

Bdklein wrote:I give this thread a 92 but after a few more posts and a day or 2 to get some legs it could be a 95.

[basic-smile.gif] [cheers.gif]

I was expecting more of a 85-87 range,
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#7 Post by Anton D » August 2nd, 2017, 9:13 am

Why 50 points just for showing up?

Talk about 'rating inflation.' (Wine college is full of this improperly entitled wines thinking they are all 94 pointers when, in fact, they are actually 44 pointers.)

Back in my day, a crap wine could get a zero, now they get fifty points just because they can be poured into a glass?

Buncha snowflake wines is what I think. Stop coddling them.

What's next "Participant Medals" so no wine at one of those phony competitions feels left out, no matter how lousy? (Hell, what am I saying? We already have "bronze medals" for those wines.)

Besides that, I feel tastes and aroma are too closely intertwined to give them separate ratings 'numbers.' (I realize that may be controversial.)
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#8 Post by Blake R Maso » August 2nd, 2017, 9:19 am

Points are a way to quantify how much someone likes a wine. I personally find write ups utterly useless without a numeric value as there is littler reference point. Might be flawed but I've yet to see something better than a 100pt scale, at least for me.

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#9 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 2nd, 2017, 9:22 am

GregT wrote: Points are only a quick way to indicate whether or not you like a wine. They're convenient if someone cares to know your opinion without reading the verbiage. They're nothing absolute, and since most people aren't great tasters anyway, their likes and dislikes are not particularly important, and their verbiage is less so.

Attaching a score is just a shorthand way of telling you how much they liked a wine at a particular time and place. There's no need to worry about accuracy - what's the dif between two points in either direction?
Very much this ^
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#10 Post by John Morris » August 2nd, 2017, 9:27 am

Blake R Maso wrote:Points are a way to quantify how much someone likes a wine. I personally find write ups utterly useless without a numeric value as there is littler reference point. Might be flawed but I've yet to see something better than a 100pt scale, at least for me.
+1

20 point scales and even 5-point scales work -- just something to indicated the taster's relative preferences.

How useful are Clive Coates's "Fine," "Very Fine, Indeed" and so on comments?
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#11 Post by Anton D » August 2nd, 2017, 9:29 am

So, anything beyond a two digit score is TLDR? champagne.gif

That's like only looking at GPA to determine the quality of one of your law firm's applicants. [stirthepothal.gif]
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#12 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 2nd, 2017, 9:39 am

So wait . . . we like points now? Did I miss a meeting?

Anything a taster can do to communicate clearly their enthusiasm for a wine is ok by me. If someone tastes a bdx, says its classic, and gives it a 95, that tells me one hell of a lot more than a paragraph of obscure references to fruit I've never seen or prior wines I've never had ("a hypothetical combination of 59 Petrus and 66 Segla, with a dash of Screagle just to keep you guessing").

On the other hand, I never have trouble discerning how enthusiastic F Audouze is about a bottle without a score.
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#13 Post by Anton D » August 2nd, 2017, 9:44 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:So wait . . . we like points now? Did I miss a meeting?

Anything a taster can do to communicate clearly their enthusiasm for a wine is ok by me. If someone tastes a bdx, says its classic, and gives it a 95, that tells me one hell of a lot more than a paragraph of obscure references to fruit I've never seen or prior wines I've never had ("a hypothetical combination of 59 Petrus and 66 Segla, with a dash of Screagle just to keep you guessing").

On the other hand, I never have trouble discerning how enthusiastic F Audouze is about a bottle without a score.
Ah, so, the crux of this biscuit is the prose.

For someone who can't communicate a tasting experience in a comprehensible fashion, a numerical score renders that taster suddenly more insightful. Why trust a number from someone who can't tell you where it came from?
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#14 Post by Matt Latuchie » August 2nd, 2017, 9:54 am

Marc Frontario wrote:I am adding on to the thoughtful comments of Subu Ramachandran in the Leve thread...In the last couple years I stopped attaching a score to wines...The reasoning is, how can you apply a fixed score to something that is constantly evolving and changing?....and sometimes not for the best....I guess we see the sliding scale range like 90-93 for example, but for me this still doesn't work...where are the 93-90 descending sliding scale scores? Truth is, many of these wines fall apart just a often as they improve. I guess as a critic you have to play nice to a certain degree, play the game etc... Sure I have seen the rare ( - ) added to a score (does this is add a smidge of street cred. for the critic?) Regardless, this happens very few and far between.

Another reason is, I have seen a wine change so dramatic over the next day or two that if I was to apply a score it would have looked like this: 84-92pts. (8points in 24hrs!!) Plus if you look at the Parker scoring you could have a superior tasting wine rated much lower in score than an inferior tasting wine. I believe most tasters are going to go more by taste than anything, again a disconnect.

for example:

wine 1: 50+20(taste)+9 (nose)+3 (color) +8 (overall quality) score: 90 points

wine 2: 50+17(taste)+13 (nose)+5 (color) +9 (overall quality) score: 94 points

If you didn't see this broken down you would choose the inferior tasting (wine #2) majority of the time

I have seen it too many times to count, disappointed tasters, sitting there dumbfounded declaring, "I don't get it, this got 93 points"

So again, there is disconnect for consumers. Therefore, if you are the score a wine I suggest breaking the scoring down in an itemized fashion. Then if you wanted to add a sliding scale to this, tell me what components you think are going to improve or decline based on your experience? This is probably asking way too much, but in a perfect world...though I believe a scoring breakdown in general would be a nice start.


Maybe I missed some of the previous debates on this, but please tell me I'm not a fuqn outlier here?
i'm 96 points on this post.
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#15 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 9:57 am

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
GregT wrote: Points are only a quick way to indicate whether or not you like a wine. They're convenient if someone cares to know your opinion without reading the verbiage. They're nothing absolute, and since most people aren't great tasters anyway, their likes and dislikes are not particularly important, and their verbiage is less so.

Attaching a score is just a shorthand way of telling you how much they liked a wine at a particular time and place. There's no need to worry about accuracy - what's the dif between two points in either direction?
Very much this ^
Ok yes, good points

In addition, with a great wine, I could see a motivation to apply a score, ESPECIALLY, if you would like your note read. Lots of us are passionate about our tasting notes, they are creative, interesting and well crafted.
I can see myself more interested in reading a note IF a high score is attached....though if a score of 85 is attached, I may probably take a pass.

Still, I would love to see the notes broken down as a line-item type scoring of each component...that would really peak my interest.
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#16 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » August 2nd, 2017, 10:07 am

Anton D wrote:
Ah, so, the crux of this biscuit is the prose.
As long as the prose includes an apostrophe.
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#17 Post by Joe B » August 2nd, 2017, 10:18 am

Up to 5 points for label artwork.
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#18 Post by Markus S » August 2nd, 2017, 10:21 am

GregT wrote:...what's the dif between two points in either direction?
At last check, about $30-$50.
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#19 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 10:23 am

Joe B wrote:Up to 5 points for label artwork.
HA

and we know this>>>actually just for the label

like the power of the suit

the power of the prestigious label always garner a couple extra points.
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#20 Post by John Morris » August 2nd, 2017, 10:23 am

Joe B wrote:Up to 5 points for label artwork.
And another 7 for the view from the tasting room porch.
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#21 Post by Anton D » August 2nd, 2017, 10:24 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
Anton D wrote:
Ah, so, the crux of this biscuit is the prose.
As long as the prose includes an apostrophe.
If I were quicker on my feet, I should have spelled it pr*se.

[cheers.gif]
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#22 Post by Subu Ramachandran » August 2nd, 2017, 10:32 am

Oh boy, I did open the pandora box! My initial post was to praise Jeff for the information on his site, but ended up mentioning my issue with assigning points.

Well anyway here are some of the issues with scoring and grading, that I want to highlight.

1. Lack of scientific method, i.e. lack of reproducibility over time and space. As an engineer, if a value (number) is assigned to a measure; it should hold true across time and space. If a score is assigned to a wine, can they be replicated when tasted blind repeatedly? How about 5yrs from now? How about when the grader is not in a good mood?

2. Observer bias: Now that we are all human, any statistical measure is prone to an observer bias and none more so than in wines. Each one has a different palate and this clouds the scoring system. Some like wines that are very fruit forward and some like balanced and nuanced flavors.

3. Numbering bias: If you have to compare scores (despite the bias), they must be normalized. Some people tend to score high and in a small cluster, some tend to score in the whole range possible. For instance, Tanzer and Meadows might be tough critics while Suckling might be hand out points to like kids in a candy store. This is open for misuse by retailers and I am sure most people notice it.

4. Change of Palate: As we all have been through, everyone's palate is constantly changing and evolving. For me certainly the wines I enjoyed 5 yrs back are not the ones I'm eager to drink now. How about with graders? The scores get set but doesn't track the year-on-year change in palate.

5. Regional bias: Parker who started the process of scoring wines, started covering Bordeaux hence is biased towards them. Galloni towards Piedmont and you can fill the rest...How about producers one likes/ dislikes and has a history with?

6.. Grape bias: Perhaps a result of point 4, grapes have been classified into bucketed into different groups. Reds score over whites...Cabernet is the king...Riesling however loved by geeks is a lost cause...Its just funny that we have a "class/ race" system in wines...oh we humans!!

Maturation profile: Ok, now if I let aside all the biases with regard to scoring. Does two 92 point wine rated by the same person taste the same? How about across time? How does the maturation profile look? Can't be captured by a single number.

Food context: Wine to me is mostly on the table with food. Does scoring doesn't help here either. It's hot and sultry summer days here in NYC, for dinner last night I enjoyed ceviche and salad, paired wonderfully well with Iberian whites. I love Petrus or Haut-Brion but those wines, in the context, "score" way lower than the wines I had. But if I look at wine scores they paint the opposite picture. Hence the point of a score is futile again. Moreover with food, if one asks 2 different somms for pairings we get 10 different suggestions for wines! With such wide variety, scores don't help in the most used context i.e. in dinner table.

Wine is an agricultural product, it's a living thing, constantly evolving. Like humans it starts off fresh and vibrant, goes through its closed phase (adolescence) only to re-emerge with more dimensions, gaining complexity with time until it reaches its peak and plateaus and goes through its inevitable decline. We don't assign numbers to people in our lives, why do it with wine? Its just classless...

Lets look at the target audience:
Experienced wine enthusiasts: they know their palate, they know what they like and what to look for. For them, I include myself here, notes are so much valuable. Points are just silly and is meaningless. Yes if certain reviewer likes wines 1,2 and 3 but 2 more than 3, they claim to use points to highlight preference. Its his preference, for which I don't care about.

Wine newbies: New in their journey, haven't discovered their palate let alone the issues associated with scoring. Many retailers just put a post just the highest score, awarded by which ever publication. They chase points and sold some product, they have no clue if they will enjoy, will pair well with their dinner, is for immediate consumption or to be enjoyed later. Points are not helpful and could be very misleading. Just as a knife in the kitchen is a useful tool, but I wouldn't give it to little children.
For newbies, like I was and still am, the fun is in the journey. Start off, taste, drink, read, discover and its better without points.

Who does it help? Yes its very helpful for retailers and people in the industry to "push sales" on unsuspecting buyer. How many times do we get emails highlighting points in big bold letters? This brings the moral element into it.

In Sum, the process of scoring is filled with flaws, is not useful in aging profile or while pairing with food, its not fully helpful for the target audience and more importantly is just classless. Fine wine, is not an industrialized product to be merely reduced to a number. I'm with Jancis Robinson and many others in wishing that this practice could be stopped in the wine world.
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#23 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 2nd, 2017, 10:33 am

Holy Cow, Marc will never read something that long! PM him an executive summary please.

;)
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#24 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 10:40 am

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:Holy Cow, Marc will never read something that long! PM him an executive summary please.

;)

HA! Truth is I am clinically diagnosed as ADD and do have mild dyslexia...so Yes Robert is right..lol
to read something like that would have me sweating....profusely....like severe hyperhydrosis [wow.gif]
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#25 Post by Anton D » August 2nd, 2017, 10:41 am

John Morris wrote:
Joe B wrote:Up to 5 points for label artwork.
And another 7 for the view from the tasting room porch.
SQN gets +15 points for the bottle itself. +3 for wax.

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#26 Post by Craig G » August 2nd, 2017, 10:41 am

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
GregT wrote: Points are only a quick way to indicate whether or not you like a wine. They're convenient if someone cares to know your opinion without reading the verbiage. They're nothing absolute, and since most people aren't great tasters anyway, their likes and dislikes are not particularly important, and their verbiage is less so.

Attaching a score is just a shorthand way of telling you how much they liked a wine at a particular time and place. There's no need to worry about accuracy - what's the dif between two points in either direction?
Very much this ^
I agree with almost all of this, but in my opinion the score puts the notes in perspective. That little piece of info about "how much I liked it" can make the whole note more useful.
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#27 Post by Anton D » August 2nd, 2017, 10:43 am

Subu Ramachandran wrote:Oh boy, I did open the pandora box! My initial post was to praise Jeff for the information on his site, but ended up mentioning my issue with assigning points.


In Sum, the process of scoring is filled with flaws, is not useful in aging profile or while pairing with food, its not fully helpful for the target audience and more importantly is just classless. Fine wine, is not an industrialized product to be merely reduced to a number. I'm with Jancis Robinson and many others in wishing that this practice could be stopped in the wine world.
This has been a common discussion in the past, so you will see many people just having fun with the topic. I don't think there will be any actual acrimony! [cheers.gif]
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#28 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 10:45 am

Subu Ramachandran wrote:Oh boy, I did open the pandora box! My initial post was to praise Jeff for the information on his site, but ended up mentioning my issue with assigning points.

Well anyway here are some of the issues with scoring and grading, that I want to highlight.

1. Lack of scientific method, i.e. lack of reproducibility over time and space. As an engineer, if a value (number) is assigned to a measure; it should hold true across time and space. If a score is assigned to a wine, can they be replicated when tasted blind repeatedly? How about 5yrs from now? How about when the grader is not in a good mood?

2. Observer bias: Now that we are all human, any statistical measure is prone to an observer bias and none more so than in wines. Each one has a different palate and this clouds the scoring system. Some like wines that are very fruit forward and some like balanced and nuanced flavors.

3. Numbering bias: If you have to compare scores (despite the bias), they must be normalized. Some people tend to score high and in a small cluster, some tend to score in the whole range possible. For instance, Tanzer and Meadows might be tough critics while Suckling might be hand out points to like kids in a candy store. This is open for misuse by retailers and I am sure most people notice it.

4. Change of Palate: As we all have been through, everyone's palate is constantly changing and evolving. For me certainly the wines I enjoyed 5 yrs back are not the ones I'm eager to drink now. How about with graders? The scores get set but doesn't track the year-on-year change in palate.

5. Regional bias: Parker who started the process of scoring wines, started covering Bordeaux hence is biased towards them. Galloni towards Piedmont and you can fill the rest...How about producers one likes/ dislikes and has a history with?

6.. Grape bias: Perhaps a result of point 4, grapes have been classified into bucketed into different groups. Reds score over whites...Cabernet is the king...Riesling however loved by geeks is a lost cause...Its just funny that we have a "class/ race" system in wines...oh we humans!!

Maturation profile: Ok, now if I let aside all the biases with regard to scoring. Does two 92 point wine rated by the same person taste the same? How about across time? How does the maturation profile look? Can't be captured by a single number.

Food context: Wine to me is mostly on the table with food. Does scoring doesn't help here either. It's hot and sultry summer days here in NYC, for dinner last night I enjoyed ceviche and salad, paired wonderfully well with Iberian whites. I love Petrus or Haut-Brion but those wines, in the context, "score" way lower than the wines I had. But if I look at wine scores they paint the opposite picture. Hence the point of a score is futile again. Moreover with food, if one asks 2 different somms for pairings we get 10 different suggestions for wines! With such wide variety, scores don't help in the most used context i.e. in dinner table.

Wine is an agricultural product, it's a living thing, constantly evolving. Like humans it starts off fresh and vibrant, goes through its closed phase (adolescence) only to re-emerge with more dimensions, gaining complexity with time until it reaches its peak and plateaus and goes through its inevitable decline. We don't assign numbers to people in our lives, why do it with wine? Its just classless...

Lets look at the target audience:
Experienced wine enthusiasts: they know their palate, they know what they like and what to look for. For them, I include myself here, notes are so much valuable. Points are just silly and is meaningless. Yes if certain reviewer likes wines 1,2 and 3 but 2 more than 3, they claim to use points to highlight preference. Its his preference, for which I don't care about.

Wine newbies: New in their journey, haven't discovered their palate let alone the issues associated with scoring. Many retailers just put a post just the highest score, awarded by which ever publication. They chase points and sold some product, they have no clue if they will enjoy, will pair well with their dinner, is for immediate consumption or to be enjoyed later. Points are not helpful and could be very misleading. Just as a knife in the kitchen is a useful tool, but I wouldn't give it to little children.
For newbies, like I was and still am, the fun is in the journey. Start off, taste, drink, read, discover and its better without points.

Who does it help? Yes its very helpful for retailers and people in the industry to "push sales" on unsuspecting buyer. How many times do we get emails highlighting points in big bold letters? This brings the moral element into it.

In Sum, the process of scoring is filled with flaws, is not useful in aging profile or while pairing with food, its not fully helpful for the target audience and more importantly is just classless. Fine wine, is not an industrialized product to be merely reduced to a number. I'm with Jancis Robinson and many others in wishing that this practice could be stopped in the wine world.
Fuq, I wish I could read this...but I get your points from skimming through...Truth is Subu, I've been a lazy fuq ...for I have been wanting to make this post for sometime now, you just helped unleash my inner Kracken!!
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#29 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 2nd, 2017, 10:46 am

Marc Frontario wrote:
Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:Holy Cow, Marc will never read something that long! PM him an executive summary please.

;)

HA! Truth is I am clinically diagnosed as ADD and do have mild dyslexia...so Yes Robert is right..lol
to read something like that would have me sweating....profusely....like severe hyperhidrosis [wow.gif]
Tasting notes aren't science. They're based on personal biases and predilections, and people might not agree. Indeed, the taster may not agree about the same wine next week or next year.

To which I say: all true, but beside the point. They are not a unit of measure but an expression of enthusiasm, of a time and a place and a person. Accepted for these limitations, they are not uninformative. Also not necessary.
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#30 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 2nd, 2017, 10:46 am

Anton D wrote:
John Morris wrote:
Joe B wrote:Up to 5 points for label artwork.
And another 7 for the view from the tasting room porch.
SQN gets +15 points for the bottle itself. +3 for wax.

Image
-3 for wax
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#31 Post by Craig G » August 2nd, 2017, 10:47 am

Anton D wrote:
Subu Ramachandran wrote:Oh boy, I did open the pandora box! My initial post was to praise Jeff for the information on his site, but ended up mentioning my issue with assigning points.


In Sum, the process of scoring is filled with flaws, is not useful in aging profile or while pairing with food, its not fully helpful for the target audience and more importantly is just classless. Fine wine, is not an industrialized product to be merely reduced to a number. I'm with Jancis Robinson and many others in wishing that this practice could be stopped in the wine world.
This has been a common discussion in the past, so you will see many people just having fun with the topic. I don't think there will be any actual acrimony! [cheers.gif]
Screw off!
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#32 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 10:48 am

Anton D wrote:
John Morris wrote:
Joe B wrote:Up to 5 points for label artwork.
And another 7 for the view from the tasting room porch.
SQN gets +15 points for the bottle itself. +3 for wax.

Image


I've tasted SQN, so I wholeheartedly agree!
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#33 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 2nd, 2017, 10:48 am

Craig G wrote:Screw off!
God not the closure debate again
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#34 Post by Bruce Leiser_owitz » August 2nd, 2017, 10:51 am

GregT wrote:
wine 1: 50+20(taste)+9 (nose)+3 (color) +8 (overall quality) score: 90 points

wine 2: 50+17(taste)+13 (nose)+5 (color) +9 (overall quality) score: 94 points
It's why I don't understand most people's tasting notes.

Points for color?

Points for the aroma?


The old UC Davis 20 point system assigns various numbers for various attributes, including color & bouquet:

http://www.musingsonthevine.com/MusingsUCDavisForm.pdf

So IF you are going to score wines, and if you want to introduce a consistent scoring methodology, the UCD 20 point scale actually has merit.

But most lay people who assign scores to wine are using an impressionistic, hedonistic scale. It's as if they are using the old Test of Strength machine to see how high each wine
will score.

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#35 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 10:54 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
Marc Frontario wrote:
Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:Holy Cow, Marc will never read something that long! PM him an executive summary please.

;)

HA! Truth is I am clinically diagnosed as ADD and do have mild dyslexia...so Yes Robert is right..lol
to read something like that would have me sweating....profusely....like severe hyperhidrosis [wow.gif]
Tasting notes aren't science. They're based on personal biases and predilections, and people might not agree. Indeed, the taster may not agree about the same wine next week or next year.

To which I say: all true, but beside the point. They are not a unit of measure but an expression of enthusiasm, of a time and a place and a person. Accepted for these limitations, they are not uninformative. Also not necessary.
I like your perspective, yes nothing is black and white, but for some (re: points) the reality lies somewhere else.
Find something you love....and let it kill u....Charles Bukowski
I cannot escape the ravages of this man....R.Alfert
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#36 Post by Anton D » August 2nd, 2017, 10:55 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
Anton D wrote:+3 for wax.
-3 for wax
We clearly have differing opinions on waxed vs. unwaxed.
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#37 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 10:57 am

Bruce Leiser_owitz wrote:
GregT wrote:
wine 1: 50+20(taste)+9 (nose)+3 (color) +8 (overall quality) score: 90 points

wine 2: 50+17(taste)+13 (nose)+5 (color) +9 (overall quality) score: 94 points
It's why I don't understand most people's tasting notes.

Points for color?

Points for the aroma?


The old UC Davis 20 point system assigns various numbers for various attributes, including color & bouquet:

http://www.musingsonthevine.com/MusingsUCDavisForm.pdf

So IF you are going to score wines, and if you want to introduce a consistent scoring methodology, the UCD 20 point scale actually has merit.

But most lay people who assign scores to wine are using an impressionistic, hedonistic scale. It's as if they are using the old Test of Strength machine to see how high each wine
will score.

Image

Bruce



Yes sir, which I believe gives the score much less merit
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#38 Post by Subu Ramachandran » August 2nd, 2017, 10:58 am

Marc Frontario wrote:
Fuq, I wish I could read this...but I get your points from skimming through...Truth is Subu, I've been a lazy fuq ...for I have been wanting to make this post for sometime now, you just helped unleash my inner Kracken!!
Glad, haha I could help!! [cheers.gif]

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#39 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 2nd, 2017, 11:00 am

Anton D wrote:
Neal.Mollen wrote:
Anton D wrote:+3 for wax.
-3 for wax
We clearly have differing opinions on waxed vs. unwaxed.
Lol. Bring back old-school!
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#40 Post by Marc Frontario » August 2nd, 2017, 11:09 am

I was waiting for that Bobby



It was only a matter of time...if you build it...he will come
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#41 Post by larry schaffer » August 2nd, 2017, 11:27 am

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
GregT wrote: Points are only a quick way to indicate whether or not you like a wine. They're convenient if someone cares to know your opinion without reading the verbiage. They're nothing absolute, and since most people aren't great tasters anyway, their likes and dislikes are not particularly important, and their verbiage is less so.

Attaching a score is just a shorthand way of telling you how much they liked a wine at a particular time and place. There's no need to worry about accuracy - what's the dif between two points in either direction?
Very much this ^
Here is my big problem with this concept though. It seems that some wines are given higher numeric scores because of expectations of those wines due to reputation or label. There are many times when I've seen a favorable score only to read a review that would make one believe that the person really didn't like the wine.

This I just don't understand. It's as if some wines are given a pass directly to 90 points or something, just for showing up as others have said, whereas others have a much lower starting point.

Cheers.
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#42 Post by Jay Miller » August 2nd, 2017, 11:35 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
Tasting notes aren't science. They're based on personal biases and predilections, and people might not agree. Indeed, the taster may not agree about the same wine next week or next year.

To which I say: all true, but beside the point. They are not a unit of measure but an expression of enthusiasm, of a time and a place and a person. Accepted for these limitations, they are not uninformative. Also not necessary.

This sums up my opinion pretty exactly.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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#43 Post by Jay Miller » August 2nd, 2017, 11:37 am

Anton D wrote:
Neal.Mollen wrote:
Anton D wrote:+3 for wax.
-3 for wax
We clearly have differing opinions on waxed vs. unwaxed.
I blame Mr. Miyagi. He couldn't make up his mind and the confusion just spread.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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#44 Post by lleichtman » August 2nd, 2017, 11:47 am

My own scoring system is A-C with pluses and minuses and that is used mainly for buy or rebuy only. I place no faith in wine scoring listed on wine store shelves. You have to agree with the rater in the first place so I see these ratings as only incidental markers for comparison.
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#45 Post by Neal.Mollen » August 2nd, 2017, 12:05 pm

Anton D wrote:
Neal.Mollen wrote:
Anton D wrote:+3 for wax.
-3 for wax
We clearly have differing opinions on waxed vs. unwaxed.
Totally her call.

Wait . . . what?
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#46 Post by Ian Sutton » August 2nd, 2017, 12:15 pm

Whilst I firmly dislike the abuses of *scoring, if people did just take it as a level of that person's enjoyment of the wine, then there isn't really a problem. However that's not what's been happening for a very long time.

Regards
Ian

*
- People treating a score as absolute "It's a 95 point wine for sure"
- People chasing high points either for profit, or because they don't care to trust their own palate.
- A 100 point scale, which would grant 50 points for someone pissing in the bottle.
- Retailers and critics alike recognising that numbers sell, and the closer the number to 100, the better. Give the wine 98+ points and your name will be on the shelf talker promoting your brand of 'criticism'. i.e. it's not a 100 point scale, not a 50 point scale, but closer to a 10 or 15 point scale and narrowing every decade.
- Scores read first, the note only read if the score interests (turn it around for a better approach)
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#47 Post by Craig G » August 2nd, 2017, 12:21 pm

Neal.Mollen wrote:
Craig G wrote:Screw off!
God not the closure debate again
Put a cork in it!
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#48 Post by Subu Ramachandran » August 2nd, 2017, 12:37 pm

Ian Sutton wrote: - People treating a score as absolute "It's a 95 point wine for sure"
- People chasing high points either for profit, or because they don't care to trust their own palate.
- A 100 point scale, which would grant 50 points for someone pissing in the bottle.
- Retailers and critics alike recognising that numbers sell, and the closer the number to 100, the better. Give the wine 98+ points and your name will be on the shelf talker promoting your brand of 'criticism'. i.e. it's not a 100 point scale, not a 50 point scale, but closer to a 10 or 15 point scale and narrowing every decade.
- Scores read first, the note only read if the score interests (turn it around for a better approach)
I agree with you Ian! [welldone.gif]

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#49 Post by Anton D » August 2nd, 2017, 1:11 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:
- A 100 point scale, which would grant 50 points for someone pissing in the bottle.
If Satan's piss after a large serving of beets and asparagus was the proper color, he'd score a 60!
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#50 Post by John Morris » August 2nd, 2017, 1:13 pm

Subu Ramachandran wrote:
Ian Sutton wrote: - People treating a score as absolute "It's a 95 point wine for sure"
- People chasing high points either for profit, or because they don't care to trust their own palate.
- A 100 point scale, which would grant 50 points for someone pissing in the bottle.
- Retailers and critics alike recognising that numbers sell, and the closer the number to 100, the better. Give the wine 98+ points and your name will be on the shelf talker promoting your brand of 'criticism'. i.e. it's not a 100 point scale, not a 50 point scale, but closer to a 10 or 15 point scale and narrowing every decade.
- Scores read first, the note only read if the score interests (turn it around for a better approach)
I agree with you Ian! [welldone.gif]
I agreed except on the 50-100 point scale. I don't see any problem with that. Most scales are inherently arbitrary (think of Fahrenheit, or the A to F grading system). As long as you know how they're used and their applied consistently (a big if when it comes to wine!), that doesn't matter. How many wines rate a 4 on the Davis scale, or a 1 on a five-point scale? Not many.
Anton D wrote:
Ian Sutton wrote:
- A 100 point scale, which would grant 50 points for someone pissing in the bottle.
If Satan's piss after a large serving of beets and asparagus was the proper color, he'd score a 60!
That would probably garner a 10 or 11 on the Davis scale.
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