It's critic bingo! (Black Forest cake and tapenade)

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2388
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#651 Post by Charlie Carnes » June 4th, 2019, 11:20 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
June 3rd, 2019, 2:47 pm
“Pliant” seems at odds to the entire note, no? Sorry to express myself so expressly but I felt expressive.

His persistent use of closing phrases like “it’s as simple as that” or that’s “all there is to it” is becoming, or has become, rather Forrest Gumpish.

Back to the forest, lest I lose sight, I noticed that I used the reference to “forest floor” in three out of five wines in one night recently, close to hitting my bingo card, except that I left “apogee” to MarcF. Now in my defense, I’m a hack and admit it, and they were mature Chinons and Bordeaux.
I think "forest floor" and other "forest" perceptions are super great for describing certain traits in wine. Forests have so many nature aromas and "feels" that change with the time of day and the time of year. Plus, I use it a ton, so it cannot be wrong!
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

User avatar
PeterH
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3431
Joined: May 14th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#652 Post by PeterH » June 4th, 2019, 11:39 am

Very few people understand the concept of exponentiation. (Maybe I should limit that to Americans).
Exponents can be less than one, less than zero, or even imaginary.
P Hickner

On s'en bat les couilles

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#653 Post by John Morris » June 4th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Wait! More brick ____ houses!
97-100 points Robert Parker's Wine Advocate
The 2018 Cos d'Estournel is composed of 74% Cabernet Sauvignon, 23% Merlot, 2% Petit Verdot and 1% Cabernet Franc and has 14.59% alcohol. Aging in 50% new barriques, it has a deep purple-black color and drifts effortlessly, gracefully, seductively out of the glass with slowly unfurling notions of blackcurrant cordial, wild blueberries, chocolate-covered cherries and plum pudding with touches of violets, licorice, wild roses and yeast extract plus a waft of loose tobacco. The full-bodied palate is built like a brick house with a solid frame of super firm, super ripe tannins and seamless freshness to back up the vibrant, crunchy, oh-so-muscular fruit, finishing long with loads of mineral layers. Amazing structure will keep this beauty for at least half a century and probably a full one! (LPB) (4/2019)
The wine has "notions"? It thinks for itself?
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Robert.A.Jr.
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21354
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 5:03 am
Location: Orlando, Florida

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#654 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 4th, 2019, 1:16 pm



Means the wine has da funk!

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

Kenny H (circa 2015)

Jonathan Loesberg
Posts: 1714
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 5:59 am

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#655 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » June 4th, 2019, 1:39 pm

PeterH wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 11:39 am
Very few people understand the concept of exponentiation. (Maybe I should limit that to Americans).
Exponents can be less than one, less than zero, or even imaginary.
The dictionary definition of "exponential" is to increase with greater and greater rapidity. It probably comes from exponential curves, but the mathematical origin of the expression can't be pushed that far.Of course, even though that's what the word means ion the tasting note, it's still semantically empty.

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#656 Post by John Morris » June 4th, 2019, 1:44 pm

I was hoping that Peter's post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
PeterH
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3431
Joined: May 14th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#657 Post by PeterH » June 4th, 2019, 1:59 pm

It is strictly an observation that perfectly clear words can be bent to mean whatever one wants it to mean.
(eg. "vertical in feel")

Here is a Googled definition:

"Relating to a mathematical expression containing one or more exponents. ♦ Something is said to increase or decrease exponentially if its rate of change must be expressed using exponents. A graph of such a rate would appear not as a straight line, but as a curve that continually becomes steeper or shallower."

The imaginary exponent was an intentional dig.
P Hickner

On s'en bat les couilles

Charlie Carnes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2388
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 2:13 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#658 Post by Charlie Carnes » June 4th, 2019, 6:11 pm

PeterH wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 11:39 am
Very few people understand the concept of exponentiation. (Maybe I should limit that to Americans).
Exponents can be less than one, less than zero, or even imaginary.

Reminds me of a "word" my accountant uses: depletiation. When you start talking less than zero and imaginary, I am thinking AMT and preference items...
So shines a good deed in a weary world!

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 33173
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#659 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » June 4th, 2019, 6:20 pm

John Morris wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 1:44 pm
I was hoping that Peter's post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
In this thread, that epitomizes taking wine discussion way too seriously?

You must be joking.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#660 Post by John Morris » June 4th, 2019, 8:28 pm

PeterH wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 1:59 pm
It is strictly an observation that perfectly clear words can be bent to mean whatever one wants it to mean.
(eg. "vertical in feel")

Here is a Googled definition:

"Relating to a mathematical expression containing one or more exponents. ♦ Something is said to increase or decrease exponentially if its rate of change must be expressed using exponents. A graph of such a rate would appear not as a straight line, but as a curve that continually becomes steeper or shallower."

The imaginary exponent was an intentional dig.
A postulate of mine: The Internet has resulted in an exponential increase in the number of instances in which humor must be explained.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#661 Post by John Morris » June 4th, 2019, 8:29 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 6:20 pm
John Morris wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 1:44 pm
I was hoping that Peter's post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
In this thread, that epitomizes taking wine discussion way too seriously?

You must be joking.
See immediately preceding post, supra.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18886
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#662 Post by Alan Rath » June 4th, 2019, 8:51 pm

David Glasser wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 4:48 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 3rd, 2019, 10:30 pm

Does you think she really know what exponential means? Or do you think it’s hyperbole?
I fear another circular argument. Some may say her writing skills are irrational or even imaginary, but they are real. They are asymptotic, and they have reached their limit.
That would be sinusoidal, not exponential.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Yao C
Posts: 674
Joined: February 1st, 2017, 10:53 pm
Location: Portland-McMinnville / SF

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#663 Post by Yao C » June 4th, 2019, 10:14 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 8:51 pm
David Glasser wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 4:48 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 3rd, 2019, 10:30 pm

Does you think she really know what exponential means? Or do you think it’s hyperbole?
I fear another circular argument. Some may say her writing skills are irrational or even imaginary, but they are real. They are asymptotic, and they have reached their limit.
That would be sinusoidal, not exponential.
Sinus-cidal is how your nose feels after it's had an Indian market's worth of violets, underbrush, mossy bark, iron ore, crème de cassis, cake, plum preserves, hoisin, more cake, red roses, dusty earth, spices and cracked black pepper crammed into it

[snort.gif]
C h 0 o n 6

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#664 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 4th, 2019, 11:43 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 1:39 pm
PeterH wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 11:39 am
Very few people understand the concept of exponentiation. (Maybe I should limit that to Americans).
Exponents can be less than one, less than zero, or even imaginary.
The dictionary definition of "exponential" is to increase with greater and greater rapidity. It probably comes from exponential curves, but the mathematical origin of the expression can't be pushed that far.Of course, even though that's what the word means ion the tasting note, it's still semantically empty.
Have to say that’s a dumb definition.

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#665 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 4th, 2019, 11:47 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 8:51 pm
David Glasser wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 4:48 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 3rd, 2019, 10:30 pm

Does you think she really know what exponential means? Or do you think it’s hyperbole?
I fear another circular argument. Some may say her writing skills are irrational or even imaginary, but they are real. They are asymptotic, and they have reached their limit.
That would be sinusoidal, not exponential.
Same thing, isn’t it? Just depends on the exponent.

User avatar
David Glasser
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 6538
Joined: August 16th, 2009, 6:03 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#666 Post by David Glasser » June 5th, 2019, 4:17 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 11:47 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 8:51 pm
David Glasser wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 4:48 am


I fear another circular argument. Some may say her writing skills are irrational or even imaginary, but they are real. They are asymptotic, and they have reached their limit.
That would be sinusoidal, not exponential.
Same thing, isn’t it? Just depends on the exponent.
Sine...qua non of thread drift? It appears I’ve led us off on a tangent. Would you cosine my apology?

(Trying to cover all the angles.)

Jonathan Loesberg
Posts: 1714
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 5:59 am

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#667 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » June 5th, 2019, 7:13 am

PeterH wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 1:59 pm
It is strictly an observation that perfectly clear words can be bent to mean whatever one wants it to mean.
(eg. "vertical in feel")

Here is a Googled definition:

"Relating to a mathematical expression containing one or more exponents. ♦ Something is said to increase or decrease exponentially if its rate of change must be expressed using exponents. A graph of such a rate would appear not as a straight line, but as a curve that continually becomes steeper or shallower."

The imaginary exponent was an intentional dig.
That is one definition, a secondary one, of the word. It is not the only one.

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#668 Post by John Morris » June 5th, 2019, 8:37 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 7:13 am
PeterH wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 1:59 pm
It is strictly an observation that perfectly clear words can be bent to mean whatever one wants it to mean.
(eg. "vertical in feel")

Here is a Googled definition:

"Relating to a mathematical expression containing one or more exponents. ♦ Something is said to increase or decrease exponentially if its rate of change must be expressed using exponents. A graph of such a rate would appear not as a straight line, but as a curve that continually becomes steeper or shallower."

The imaginary exponent was an intentional dig.
That is one definition, a secondary one, of the word. It is not the only one.
?

I assume the technical, mathematical meaning came first. Then came the common/lay usage, meaning "to increase with greater and greater rapidity."
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18886
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#669 Post by Alan Rath » June 5th, 2019, 9:36 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 11:47 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 8:51 pm
David Glasser wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 4:48 am
I fear another circular argument. Some may say her writing skills are irrational or even imaginary, but they are real. They are asymptotic, and they have reached their limit.
That would be sinusoidal, not exponential.
Same thing, isn’t it? Just depends on the exponent.
Jayson, no, the two are not anything alike, but I'll avoid the math discussion tangent here. It was just a play on words, that's all [cheers.gif]
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#670 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 5th, 2019, 11:05 am

Alan Rath wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 9:36 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 11:47 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 8:51 pm

That would be sinusoidal, not exponential.
Same thing, isn’t it? Just depends on the exponent.
Jayson, no, the two are not anything alike, but I'll avoid the math discussion tangent here. It was just a play on words, that's all [cheers.gif]
Really? Exp(z); z complex.

(I never avoid mathematical tangents, er, thread drift.)

User avatar
PeterH
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3431
Joined: May 14th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#671 Post by PeterH » June 5th, 2019, 11:19 am

John Morris wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 8:37 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 7:13 am
PeterH wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 1:59 pm
It is strictly an observation that perfectly clear words can be bent to mean whatever one wants it to mean.
(eg. "vertical in feel")

Here is a Googled definition:

"Relating to a mathematical expression containing one or more exponents. ♦ Something is said to increase or decrease exponentially if its rate of change must be expressed using exponents. A graph of such a rate would appear not as a straight line, but as a curve that continually becomes steeper or shallower."

The imaginary exponent was an intentional dig.
That is one definition, a secondary one, of the word. It is not the only one.
?

I assume the technical, mathematical meaning came first. Then came the common/lay usage, meaning "to increase with greater and greater rapidity."
Just so we can beat this to death, rather than going on to useful ridicule of critics, "Exponent" is derived from Latin "exponere", or "put forth". We still use the word as a promoter of a cause or idea.
The technical/mathematical meaning is very specific, and is not limited to "getting larger and larger". That is a colloquial adaptation.
P Hickner

On s'en bat les couilles

Jonathan Loesberg
Posts: 1714
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 5:59 am

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#672 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » June 5th, 2019, 11:35 am

OK, both John and Peter are confusing order of etymological derivation from ordering in a dictionary, which is done by that dictionary's sense of which usage is the most current and/or the most usual. Those meanings from which a meaning derives often come second (though by no means always). But my point isn't really affected by whether the meaning is secondary, primary, or etymologically secondary. It is an accepted meaning of the word, and thus not an error in the passage quoted. A semantic absurdity, but not a usage error.

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#673 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 5th, 2019, 11:53 am

x^y fits the dictionary definition for y real and >1. That makes no sense.

Burn the dictionary!!

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18886
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#674 Post by Alan Rath » June 5th, 2019, 12:00 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 11:05 am
Really? Exp(z); z complex.

(I never avoid mathematical tangents, er, thread drift.)
That is indeed true [cheers.gif] But it only applies to complex wines...
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
PeterH
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3431
Joined: May 14th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#675 Post by PeterH » June 5th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 11:35 am
OK, both John and Peter are confusing order of etymological derivation from ordering in a dictionary, which is done by that dictionary's sense of which usage is the most current and/or the most usual. Those meanings from which a meaning derives often come second (though by no means always). But my point isn't really affected by whether the meaning is secondary, primary, or etymologically secondary. It is an accepted meaning of the word, and thus not an error in the passage quoted. A semantic absurdity, but not a usage error.
That's the great thing about language. When enough people are wrong (by prescription), they become right (by description). Come to think of it, taste in wine works the same way. Yesteryear's faulty wine can be today's hippest trend.
Last edited by PeterH on June 5th, 2019, 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
P Hickner

On s'en bat les couilles

Jonathan Loesberg
Posts: 1714
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 5:59 am

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#676 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » June 5th, 2019, 12:27 pm

Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 11:53 am
x^y fits the dictionary definition for y real and >1. That makes no sense.

Burn the dictionary!!
It is does not, by any stretch of the imagination, express what dictionaries do when they offer multiple definitions. It is certainly true that if you want to imagine that language could work according to an early Wittgensteinian system of symbolic logic, then by all means get rid of dictionaries. If you want to find errors based on what you think words should mean if only they operated systematically, ditto. If you want to understand what people are saying, you need a record of how the word is used. This record, alas, like most forms of history, will not be satisfactory as logic.

Peter, you are of course right that when enough people use a word, that is what it means. I'm not sure why that affronts you. It's just what language is.

User avatar
PeterH
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3431
Joined: May 14th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#677 Post by PeterH » June 5th, 2019, 12:37 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 12:27 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 11:53 am
x^y fits the dictionary definition for y real and >1. That makes no sense.

Burn the dictionary!!
It is does not, by any stretch of the imagination, express what dictionaries do when they offer multiple definitions. It is certainly true that if you want to imagine that language could work according to an early Wittgensteinian system of symbolic logic, then by all means get rid of dictionaries. If you want to find errors based on what you think words should mean if only they operated systematically, ditto. If you want to understand what people are saying, you need a record of how the word is used. This record, alas, like most forms of history, will not be satisfactory as logic.

Peter, you are of course right that when enough people use a word, that is what it means. I'm not sure why that affronts you. It's just what language is.
Did I say it affronts me? Not at all!
Stinky wine doesn't affront me either. I just don't drink it.
P Hickner

On s'en bat les couilles

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#678 Post by John Morris » June 5th, 2019, 1:23 pm

We return you now to our regularly scheduled programming.

I supposed the brick wall is part of one of those brick houses:
2018 Ch Pichon Comtesse Lalande Pauillac
WA 97-99
"The grand vin represents 50% of the crop this year. The 2018 Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande is made up of 71% Cabernet Sauvignon, 23% Merlot, 5% Cabernet Franc and 1% Petit Verdot with a pH of 3.85, an IPT (total polyphenol index) of 87 and 14% alcohol. Very deep purple-black colored, it is like hitting a brick wall to begin, needing considerable coaxing to start to reveal notes of crushed black cherries, warm blackberries, ripe blackcurrants and chocolate cake with nuances of violets, rose hip tea, charcuterie, tapenade and incense with wafts of new leather and iron ore. Full-bodied, concentrated and completely laden with tightly wound black fruit and savory layers, the palate gives a rock-solid backbone of firm, super ripe, super fine-grained tannins and soft background freshness, finishing very long with a veritable display of mineral fireworks. "-Lisa Perrotti-Brown, MW
The first note I've ever read with the total polyphenol index noted!
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

Jonathan Loesberg
Posts: 1714
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 5:59 am

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#679 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » June 5th, 2019, 1:24 pm

Use your own word for how you evaluate stinky wine. If you choose to avoid dictionary definitions, you should not criticize others for not following your somewhat anomalous handling of language. Probably, you should expect often to misunderstand others and to be misunderstood, yourself. When Humpty Dumpty said about words, the question is who is to be master, he was not generally thought to be correct.

User avatar
Jay Selman
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1127
Joined: February 6th, 2009, 3:22 am
Location: Southern California

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#680 Post by Jay Selman » June 5th, 2019, 1:32 pm

Many years ago I created a spreadsheet to compare the descriptors used by critics for the same wine. I was generous in scoring a "match" For example "red fruit" by Tanzer would be a match for "cherries" by Parker. However "cherries" would not be a match with "raspberries" (MisMatch). There were far more marked MisMatch than matches. I was surprised by the number of what I called "Holes" meaning a critic using a descriptor that others did not seem to detect or mention. A common example was when a critic would say "copious oak" that others did not mention (like Vanilla, Dill, Coconut, etc). I occasionally found conflicting descriptors. Probably does not mean much, but it was interesting to me.

User avatar
Robert.A.Jr.
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21354
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 5:03 am
Location: Orlando, Florida

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#681 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 5th, 2019, 1:34 pm

We need Keith Levenberg to chime in here . . . .

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

Kenny H (circa 2015)

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#682 Post by John Morris » June 5th, 2019, 1:38 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 1:24 pm
Use your own word for how you evaluate stinky wine. If you choose to avoid dictionary definitions, you should not criticize others for not following your somewhat anomalous handling of language. Probably, you should expect often to misunderstand others and to be misunderstood, yourself. When Humpty Dumpty said about words, the question is who is to be master, he was not generally thought to be correct.
Whoa! You're taking this all much too seriously! And I think it's you who is misunderstanding a lot of playful digressing here.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#683 Post by John Morris » June 5th, 2019, 1:40 pm

Jay Selman wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 1:32 pm
Many years ago I created a spreadsheet to compare the descriptors used by critics for the same wine. I was generous in scoring a "match" For example "red fruit" by Tanzer would be a match for "cherries" by Parker. However "cherries" would not be a match with "raspberries" (MisMatch). There were far more marked MisMatch than matches. I was surprised by the number of what I called "Holes" meaning a critic using a descriptor that others did not seem to detect or mention. A common example was when a critic would say "copious oak" that others did not mention (like Vanilla, Dill, Coconut, etc). I occasionally found conflicting descriptors. Probably does not mean much, but it was interesting to me.
Good research.

There are many examples like that above in this thread. Molesworth detects any number of different smoked woods, for instance. Perotti-Brown has an unfailing nose for detecting various desserts.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#684 Post by John Morris » June 5th, 2019, 1:43 pm

Do you think we should read meaning into the distinction between "Don't miss it" and "Don't miss it!"?
2013 Cantalupo Agamium
"The 2013 Colline Novaresi Agamium is a striking, entry-level wine endowed with tons of Nebbiolo personality. Sweet red cherry, wild flowers and mint grace the palate in this silky, perfumed wine loaded with personality. Don’t miss it." 92 points Antonio Galloni (Vinous Media)

2018 Ch Cos D'Estournel St. Estephe
"A regal, soaring Saint-Estèphe, the 2018 Cos d'Estournel is also clearly one of the wines of the vintage. On the palate, the 2018 is dark and sumptuous, with striking aromatic presence and silky tannins that wrap around a rich core of exotic fruit. Black cherry, savory herbs, leather, spice and menthol build in the glass in a wine that is both aromatically intense and richly textured. The 2018 has been nothing short of breathtaking on the two occasions I have tasted it so far. Don’t miss it. "-Antonio Galloni

2014 San Giusto a Rentennano Percarlo
"The 2014 Percarlo is one of the most refined young Percarlos I can remember tasting at San Giusto. A silky, polished wine, it makes its case with persistence and length more than power alone. Dark cherry, sage, tobacco and underbrush develop in the glass, but it is the wine's persistence that is most impressive. The 2014 was aged 70% in French oak barrique and 30% in cask. Over the last few years, the introduction of larger-format oak has added a level of finesse to Percarlo that is palpable. The 2014 is one of the stars of the vintage. Don’t miss it."-Antonio Galloni

2016 Fèlsina Chianti Classico Berardenga $24.99 $21.99 or $20.99 in a mix six
One of the great names from Castelnuovo. AG: “The 2016 Chianti Classico Berardenga is a stellar, joyous wine. Bold, powerful and ample, with a good deal of finesse for such a big wine, the 2016 shows why this is such a compelling vintage for Chianti Classico. Leather, game, smoke, tobacco and licorice infuse a wine that oozes Sangiovese character. The 2016 needs a few years in bottle to be at its best, but is already pretty alluring. Moreover, this is a fabulous expression of the estate. Don’t miss it.

2007 Dom Ruinart Brut Blanc de Blancs
… A striking, tightly-coiled wine, the 2007 Dom Ruinart will leave readers week at the knees. … Although it is very early, the 2007 has the potential to go down as one of the great Dom Ruinarts. It is every bit that special. Dosage is under 5 grams per liter, a pretty striking change from the 2006, which was closer to 10. Readers who can grab the 2007 won't want to miss it."-Antonio Galloni

2015 Ch Ducru Beaucaillou St. Julien
"The 2015 Ducru-Beaucaillou is phenomenally great. Inky, powerful and explosive, the 2015 pulses with energy in all of its dimensions. Creme de cassis, blackberry jam, graphite, smoke, leather and incense, along with the wine's muscular tannins, convey an impression of brooding intensity. The 2015 has been nothing short of sensational on the two occasions I have tasted it so far. Readers should be prepared to be patient. Don't miss it!"-Antonio Galloni

"The 2015 Chianti Colli Fiorentini is a gorgeous wine and an absolutely screaming value. Plump, juicy and yet very classic in its mid-weight structure, the 2015 is terrific. Hints of tobacco, leather and spice round out this pliant, super-delicious Chianti from the Colli Fiorentini district. Don’t miss it. The 2015 was fermented and aged in concrete." 90 points Antonio Galloni

2014 Vajra Barolo Bricco Viole
"The 2014 Barolo Bricco delle Viole is positively stunning. There are many things about this wine that are super-impressive, but what stands out most is how soft and silky the tannins are. Because of that, the 2014 is much more approachable than it usually is, and yet also conveys the feeling of translucence that is such a signature of this site and wine. I am not sure I have ever tasted a young Bricco delle Viole with this much purity of fruit. The 2014 is total class. Don’t miss it."-Antonio Galloni

"The 2016 Tertre-Rôteboeuf is ...one of the wines of the vintage...In a world in which so many wines are copycats, Tertre-Roteboeuf is an original...This is a magnificent effort from François and Nina Mitjavile. Don't miss it!"-Antonio Galloni

2015 Ch La Conseillante Pomerol
"Newly-arrived Technical Director Marielle Cazaux turned out a jewel of a wine at La Conseillante in 2015, her debut vintage. A polished and super-sophisticated Pomerol, La Conseillante is all class. Precise, lifted aromatics make a strong first impression, but it is the wine's overall feel and sense of harmony that truly dazzle. Over the last two years, the 2015 seems to have gained in freshness, precision and nuance. What a wine! The blend is 81% Merlot, 19% Cabernet Franc. Don’t miss it."-Antonio Galloni
And what happens if you don't have an unlimited budget for wine and feel compelled to buy everything Galloni says you can't miss?
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#685 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 5th, 2019, 1:49 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 12:27 pm
Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 11:53 am
x^y fits the dictionary definition for y real and >1. That makes no sense.

Burn the dictionary!!
It is does not, by any stretch of the imagination, express what dictionaries do when they offer multiple definitions. It is certainly true that if you want to imagine that language could work according to an early Wittgensteinian system of symbolic logic, then by all means get rid of dictionaries. If you want to find errors based on what you think words should mean if only they operated systematically, ditto. If you want to understand what people are saying, you need a record of how the word is used. This record, alas, like most forms of history, will not be satisfactory as logic.

Peter, you are of course right that when enough people use a word, that is what it means. I'm not sure why that affronts you. It's just what language is.
Tongue in cheek, my friend. Firmly. Which doesn’t mean it’s not a stupid distortion of the word IMO only(?).

Jonathan Loesberg
Posts: 1714
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 5:59 am

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#686 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » June 5th, 2019, 2:04 pm

I agree this has gone too far for too long. My original point was that the original use of exponential was not, contra Peter, either incorrect or symptomatic of a larger misunderstanding of exponentiation (although that misunderstanding may well exist). It's just one of the meanings of the word. Peter defends his claim effectively by attacking the dictionary (if a word is misused long enough, that misuse becomes a meaning). This seems to me, playful or not, to be the hyperbole. It's always fun to tear apart other people's prose (I was a literary critic!), but you really should be sure of your ground.

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#687 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 5th, 2019, 2:10 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 2:04 pm
I agree this has gone too far for too long. My original point was that the original use of exponential was not, contra Peter, either incorrect or symptomatic of a larger misunderstanding of exponentiation (although that misunderstanding may well exist). It's just one of the meanings of the word. Peter defends his claim effectively by attacking the dictionary (if a word is misused long enough, that misuse becomes a meaning). This seems to me, playful or not, to be the hyperbole. It's always fun to tear apart other people's prose (I was a literary critic!), but you really should be sure of your ground.
Back to wine, I think a better point, as articulated humorously above, is her use of the word exponentially makes no sense, and is fully exposed to our game of critic bingo, under your dictionary definition.

User avatar
PeterH
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3431
Joined: May 14th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#688 Post by PeterH » June 5th, 2019, 2:32 pm

Don't mess with OPP, other peoples prose.

I would like to see the polyphenol index listed on red wines, as well as RS, pH, total acidity, and use of oak.
That would help immensely in sorting out reality from opinion.
P Hickner

On s'en bat les couilles

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#689 Post by John Morris » June 5th, 2019, 3:52 pm

A measurement of oak lactones, perhaps?
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
John Ammons
Posts: 1194
Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 10:26 am
Location: Mill Valley, CA

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#690 Post by John Ammons » June 5th, 2019, 9:07 pm

John Morris wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 1:23 pm
We return you now to our regularly scheduled programming.

I supposed the brick wall is part of one of those brick houses:
2018 Ch Pichon Comtesse Lalande Pauillac
WA 97-99
"The grand vin represents 50% of the crop this year. The 2018 Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande is made up of 71% Cabernet Sauvignon, 23% Merlot, 5% Cabernet Franc and 1% Petit Verdot with a pH of 3.85, an IPT (total polyphenol index) of 87 and 14% alcohol. Very deep purple-black colored, it is like hitting a brick wall to begin, needing considerable coaxing to start to reveal notes of crushed black cherries, warm blackberries, ripe blackcurrants and chocolate cake with nuances of violets, rose hip tea, charcuterie, tapenade and incense with wafts of new leather and iron ore. Full-bodied, concentrated and completely laden with tightly wound black fruit and savory layers, the palate gives a rock-solid backbone of firm, super ripe, super fine-grained tannins and soft background freshness, finishing very long with a veritable display of mineral fireworks. "-Lisa Perrotti-Brown, MW
The first note I've ever read with the total polyphenol index noted!
The line that gets me in that note is "mineral fireworks" (and on the finish no less). Has that ever been used?

User avatar
PeterH
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3431
Joined: May 14th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#691 Post by PeterH » June 5th, 2019, 9:28 pm

Mineral fireworks, Cold fusion?

Why iron ore? I understand iron, but LPB is sinking into logorrhea.
P Hickner

On s'en bat les couilles

User avatar
Yao C
Posts: 674
Joined: February 1st, 2017, 10:53 pm
Location: Portland-McMinnville / SF

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#692 Post by Yao C » June 5th, 2019, 10:19 pm

John Morris wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 1:23 pm
2018 Ch Pichon Comtesse Lalande Pauillac
WA 97-99
"The grand vin represents 50% of the crop this year. The 2018 Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande is made up of 71% Cabernet Sauvignon, 23% Merlot, 5% Cabernet Franc and 1% Petit Verdot with a pH of 3.85, an IPT (total polyphenol index) of 87 and 14% alcohol. Very deep purple-black colored, it is like hitting a brick wall to begin, needing considerable coaxing to start to reveal notes of crushed black cherries, warm blackberries, ripe blackcurrants and chocolate cake with nuances of violets, rose hip tea, charcuterie, tapenade and incense with wafts of new leather and iron ore. Full-bodied, concentrated and completely laden with tightly wound black fruit and savory layers, the palate gives a rock-solid backbone of firm, super ripe, super fine-grained tannins and soft background freshness, finishing very long with a veritable display of mineral fireworks. "-Lisa Perrotti-Brown, MW
The first note I've ever read with the total polyphenol index noted!
I first saw it in connection with the 2016 vintage; Lynch Bages was quoted as having 95 IPT, "the highest ever from the property," not that I have any idea how to relate this measurement to actual taste sensations. But apparently the 2016 Latour only had 83 IPT. Oh well
C h 0 o n 6

User avatar
GregT
Posts: 7964
Joined: April 15th, 2009, 3:12 pm

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#693 Post by GregT » June 6th, 2019, 1:15 am

It's like hitting a brick wall because it's rock solid. But that rock solid backbone is all about soft background freshness.

Makes perfect sense to me, as it's laden with layers.
G . T a t a r

[i]"the incorrect overuse of apostrophes is staggering these days. I wonder if half the adults these days have any idea what they are for." Chris Seiber, 5/14/19[/i]

Jonathan Loesberg
Posts: 1714
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 5:59 am

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#694 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » June 6th, 2019, 7:31 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 2:10 pm
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 2:04 pm
I agree this has gone too far for too long. My original point was that the original use of exponential was not, contra Peter, either incorrect or symptomatic of a larger misunderstanding of exponentiation (although that misunderstanding may well exist). It's just one of the meanings of the word. Peter defends his claim effectively by attacking the dictionary (if a word is misused long enough, that misuse becomes a meaning). This seems to me, playful or not, to be the hyperbole. It's always fun to tear apart other people's prose (I was a literary critic!), but you really should be sure of your ground.
Back to wine, I think a better point, as articulated humorously above, is her use of the word exponentially makes no sense, and is fully exposed to our game of critic bingo, under your dictionary definition.
This I agree with absolutely.

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#695 Post by John Morris » June 6th, 2019, 7:41 am

John Ammons wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 9:07 pm
John Morris wrote:
June 5th, 2019, 1:23 pm
2018 Ch Pichon Comtesse Lalande Pauillac
"... Full-bodied, concentrated and completely laden with tightly wound black fruit and savory layers, the palate gives a rock-solid backbone of firm, super ripe, super fine-grained tannins and soft background freshness, finishing very long with a veritable display of mineral fireworks. "-Lisa Perrotti-Brown, MW
The first note I've ever read with the total polyphenol index noted!
The line that gets me in that note is "mineral fireworks" (and on the finish no less). Has that ever been used?
Not sure. But it's in keeping with the highly explosive nature of recent vintages. See posts #627 and, particularly Marcus Stanley's #631:
Makes me think of a hand grenade in the glass, loaded with shards of dark chocolate and cherry, ready to go off in your mouth. A room full of pasty middle aged critics dodging wine shrapnel as glasses of the latest vintage of the century detonate around them.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#696 Post by John Morris » June 6th, 2019, 9:30 am

Here's a note from Neal Martin that I really like. Lots of metaphors, and it made me chuckle, but I came away with a good sense of the wine. Only "symmetrical focus" throws me:
2015 Domaine Lamarche La Grande Rue Grand Cru
Vinous 95
"The 2015 La Grand Rue Grand Cru has a concentrated bouquet, very pure but more introspective than its peers. It demands a lot of coaxing from the glass, eventually unfolding to reveal gorgeous, seductive scents of wild strawberry, raspberry, orange blossom and sous-bois. The palate is medium-bodied, offering supple tannin, crisp acidity and symmetrical focus, but I would have liked more substance on the finish. At the moment, this Grand Cru is holding its breath. It needs to exhale! There is a great wine here, but at present, it is indifferent to being loved."-Neal Martin
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18886
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#697 Post by Alan Rath » June 6th, 2019, 11:18 am

Not bad, but what the heck is "symmetrical focus"? That definitely goes on your bingo card.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
Posts: 5420
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#698 Post by Keith Levenberg » June 8th, 2019, 6:10 am

Alan Rath wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:18 am
Not bad, but what the heck is "symmetrical focus"? That definitely goes on your bingo card.
There are actually two simultaneous games going on here worth disentangling. There is the bingo card and the reverse bingo card. The bingo card is for pet expressions, preferably malapropisms worthy of social shaming, that surface so often that you really could fill a card with them and hit bingo checking your morning emails. Antonio Galloni, because he writes his tasting notes by throwing a dart at a board containing the same two dozen malapropisms like "captivates all the senses" or "closing shades of nuance," is like the Kevin Bacon of the bingo game. His malapropisms are special - it wouldn't be remotely as fun to badger Parker for his promiscuous use of terms like "hedonistic" or "pain grille." Separately, there is also sort of a reverse bingo game, which is for expressions so arcane and nonsensical it's more like they were throwing darts at the Encyclopedia Britannica and the only thing more absurd than seeing the expression used once would be seeing it used twice. There is perhaps a third game, a crossover between the two, that happens when critics fall so deeply in love with their own nonsense that an expression might find itself migrating from the reverse bingo card to the bingo card, such as with Lisa Perrotti-Brown's curious ability to find wines that taste like a cast-iron pan.

User avatar
Jim Brennan
Posts: 4554
Joined: April 17th, 2009, 6:10 pm
Location: People's Republic of Illinois

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#699 Post by Jim Brennan » June 8th, 2019, 7:14 am

Love your take... Welcome back Keith.

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: It's critic bingo! ("vertical in feel")

#700 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 8th, 2019, 9:18 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
June 8th, 2019, 6:10 am
Alan Rath wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 11:18 am
Not bad, but what the heck is "symmetrical focus"? That definitely goes on your bingo card.
There are actually two simultaneous games going on here worth disentangling. There is the bingo card and the reverse bingo card. The bingo card is for pet expressions, preferably malapropisms worthy of social shaming, that surface so often that you really could fill a card with them and hit bingo checking your morning emails. Antonio Galloni, because he writes his tasting notes by throwing a dart at a board containing the same two dozen malapropisms like "captivates all the senses" or "closing shades of nuance," is like the Kevin Bacon of the bingo game. His malapropisms are special - it wouldn't be remotely as fun to badger Parker for his promiscuous use of terms like "hedonistic" or "pain grille." Separately, there is also sort of a reverse bingo game, which is for expressions so arcane and nonsensical it's more like they were throwing darts at the Encyclopedia Britannica and the only thing more absurd than seeing the expression used once would be seeing it used twice. There is perhaps a third game, a crossover between the two, that happens when critics fall so deeply in love with their own nonsense that an expression might find itself migrating from the reverse bingo card to the bingo card, such as with Lisa Perrotti-Brown's curious ability to find wines that taste like a cast-iron pan.
Levenberg: For the foregoing reasons, and notwithstanding the First Amendment, Levenberg respectfully asks that the Court apply federal law banning vulgarity in interstate trade and enjoin the public use of expressions appearing on the aforementioned wine critic’s Bingo and reverse-Bingo card.

Meanwhile on the LawyerBerserkers.com lawyer’s bingo thread:

Bingo card includes—
- for the foregoing reasons
- notwithstanding
- respectfully asks that the Court
- aforementioned

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”