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MBerto
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#1 Post by MBerto » December 27th, 2016, 7:20 am

I know people around here aren't known for having strongly held opinions, but let's see if we can liven things up a bit. This is about opinions, but let's please try to shy away from 'Popular wine region is crap' or 'Board favorite is overrated'. I need takes hotter than that. Best I can muster is:

Stemware is generally irrelevant. Target can provide all the stemware you'll ever need.
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#2 Post by Nolan E » December 27th, 2016, 7:35 am

The Coravin is not effective for more than a week or two of preservation (dependent on how much headspace there is).

Tannin doesn't cut through fat in food as effectively as acid (try Riesling or Champagne with your best steak).

It's funny to read posts by people here who are extremely dogmatic or opinionated but have little to no clue about how wine is really made.
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#3 Post by Michael S. Monie » December 27th, 2016, 7:51 am

Barolo is experiencing a new paradigm of quality and earlier accessibility.
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#4 Post by CJ Beazley » December 27th, 2016, 7:56 am

Red wine and chocolate do not pair well.
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#5 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 27th, 2016, 8:09 am

France, hands-down, has the greatest wine regions in the world, offering more diversity, uniqueness, value and quality than any other place on earth. No other place comes close.

On a related note, the internationalization of wine and the wine industry, spearheaded in part by critics like Parker and consultants like Rolland, are the greatest threat to my point above. Earlier in his career, Parker actually added value to the French wine industry.

Ducking now . . . .

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#6 Post by Brian Tuite » December 27th, 2016, 8:17 am

Aged Riesling is nasty.
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#7 Post by Scott Brunson » December 27th, 2016, 8:19 am

Tous les chemins mènent à la Bourgogne.
But I'll take Napa Cab over Bordeaux almost every time.
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#8 Post by Daniel H » December 27th, 2016, 8:24 am

Corks should be outlawed.

Almost every 15.5%+ California red wine is unbalanced.

Stem inclusion makes for worse Pinot Noir.
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#9 Post by Hans Werge » December 27th, 2016, 8:27 am

It is very rare that a wine gets better with age.

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#10 Post by Arv R » December 27th, 2016, 8:33 am

There are more Premier Cru's out there.
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#11 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » December 27th, 2016, 8:39 am

Champagne from Selosse, with a couple of specific exceptions, is vastly overrated.
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#12 Post by Blake R Maso » December 27th, 2016, 8:41 am

Most people underestimate modern styled Bordeaux ability to age for vintages past 00 and will be surprised at its quality at the 25-30+ year mark, as the wine is unrivaled in quality via technology in the cellar and vineyard.

Afwe wines won't ever be enjoyed by the masses because they just don't taste good unless you essentially force yourself to like them.

Most Parker haters are criticizing him for liking the wines the masses enjoy, which is who needs his help most anyways.

Sauternes tastes best with a dash of Perrier.

There's too much Bordeaux in the best vintages (like 59,61,82,89,90,00,05,09,10.. notice no 95/96) available to drink second tier vintages, 01 and 12 not included, because life is too short and beer is such a great substitute when feeling cheap.

Champagne doesn't taste good enough to merit paying more than $20/btl.

I'd never try to pass off those as fact while sober though... it's like trying to tell someone root beer is better than sprite (it is!!)

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#13 Post by MBerto » December 27th, 2016, 8:41 am

Hans Werge wrote:It is very rare that a wine gets better with age.
WHOA! I know this is true with regard to 99% of cheap wine, but do you mean this to apply to the various $50+ wines routinely discussed on this board? All unpopular opinions welcomed, but this is a particularly spicy take.
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#14 Post by Jonathan Favre » December 27th, 2016, 8:42 am

There are lots of tasters that mischaracterize a damaged white wine (lots of different ways this can happen) as a premoxed white wine (insert white burg if you want). Knee jerk reaction..... Don't hate me :)!

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#15 Post by Jonathan Grunzweig » December 27th, 2016, 8:43 am

What an awesome thread! My niche controversy-starter: most expressions of Sangiovese are uninspiring, Soldera being the exception that proves the rule (and I love Italian wine).

Happy holidays,
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#16 Post by Henry Kiichli » December 27th, 2016, 8:43 am

Many cheeses do not go with red wine.
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#17 Post by MBerto » December 27th, 2016, 8:44 am

R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:Champagne from Selosse, with a couple of specific exceptions, is vastly overrated.
HEY. You were warned about this.
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#18 Post by Michael Martin » December 27th, 2016, 8:49 am

Provenance for wines under $100 is vastly overrated.
Wax sealed corks are very easy to open and if you disagree, you are doing it wrong.

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#19 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 27th, 2016, 8:50 am

MBerto wrote:
Hans Werge wrote:It is very rare that a wine gets better with age.
WHOA! I know this is true with regard to 99% of cheap wine, but do you mean this to apply to the various $50+ wines routinely discussed on this board? All unpopular opinions welcomed, but this is a particularly spicy take.
That one made me go, "hmm" as well, but I assume the use of the term "rare" was broader than it seems. Perhaps not. I don't think price as anything to do with whether wines are worthy of aging, though. Many modern Bordeaux are pretty pricey but IMHO do not actually benefit from long-term again. Heck, since we are spouting off opinions, I do not think they are worthy of purchasing, either. IMHO, it is the classic-structured wines, from more reknown vineyards, in solid years, that age well. For example, many classified growths in vintages like 2000, 2005, 2010, will vastly improve with aging, many likely better at age 25. Think about the 1982s, the top tier Bdx are drinking splendidly right now. That said, it is a small percentage of the wine world that goes this distance.

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#20 Post by Nolan E » December 27th, 2016, 8:52 am

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
On a related note, the internationalization of wine and the wine industry, spearheaded in part by critics like Parker and consultants like Rolland, are the greatest threat to my point above. Earlier in his career, Parker actually added value to the French wine industry.

Ducking now . . . .
I had typed something about consultants but erased it before I posted.

It's not like Rolland is busting into Chateaux with automatic weapons and demanding they convert, struggling proprietors (and I suppose some point-hungry super-wealthy satellite owners) are hiring him intentionally.

I do think tastemakers like Parker and Laube have created a demand for people like Rolland and Cambie, though.
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#21 Post by ERPark » December 27th, 2016, 8:53 am

Grower champagne isn't as good as the "cool kids" make it out to be.
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#22 Post by Neal.Mollen » December 27th, 2016, 8:53 am

All of you are wrong
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#23 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 27th, 2016, 8:57 am

Nolan E wrote:
Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
On a related note, the internationalization of wine and the wine industry, spearheaded in part by critics like Parker and consultants like Rolland, are the greatest threat to my point above. Earlier in his career, Parker actually added value to the French wine industry.

Ducking now . . . .
I had typed something about consultants but erased it before I posted.

It's not like Rolland is busting into Chateaux with automatic weapons and demanding they convert, struggling proprietors (and I suppose some point-hungry super-wealthy satellite owners) are hiring him intentionally.

I do think tastemakers like Parker and Laube have created a demand for people like Rolland and Cambie, though.
Oh no doubt that lemming-like demand is pushing Chateaux to hire Rollo and his ilk. The sad part is, classic Chateau with long track records and a respectable following, are now moving to the dark side. Sheez, even Lanessan recently moved over to the modernists.

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#24 Post by Corey N. » December 27th, 2016, 8:57 am

The vanguard of American winemaking is more exciting than any place in Europe.
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#25 Post by Ed Kurtzman » December 27th, 2016, 9:01 am

Wine can only be so good, prices above a certain point are irrelevant and don't relate to quality, with very few exceptions.

Bottles with natural corks will age better when stored upright.

The Burgundians could solve the premox problem if they'd only go back to crushing the Chardonnay before pressing.

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#26 Post by Nathan Smyth » December 27th, 2016, 9:08 am

There really isn't anything in this hobby which is markedly better than Zardetto + Saracco for dinner, and you can find both of those at Total Wine.

Also, note Nolan E's point above - these wines will cut right through a beef dish - you don't even need to waste any money on a red.

PS: I am also starting to think strongly about cellaring the Moscato d'Asti wines - I suspect that Muscat might age even better over the centuries than does Riesling.

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#27 Post by Joe B » December 27th, 2016, 9:15 am

Sauvignon Blanc is best when used in cheese fondue.
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#28 Post by MBerto » December 27th, 2016, 9:16 am

ERPark wrote:Grower champagne isn't as good as the "cool kids" make it out to be.
Asimov beat you to this one.
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#29 Post by S. Stevenson » December 27th, 2016, 9:20 am

Red wines do not need to 'breath' prior to drinking(studies already have proven this).

Wines do not become better with age, they simply become different.

Napa cabs have become boring.
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#30 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 27th, 2016, 9:27 am

Corey N. wrote:The vanguard of American winemaking is more exciting than any place in Europe.
Such as?

"@lf3rt was clearly raised in an outhouse in the Loire. . . ."

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#31 Post by johngonzales » December 27th, 2016, 9:31 am

Robert Parker has been an incredibly positive influence in wine enthusiasm.

The opinions and tastes of wine geeks are not as important in the world of wine as we may think.

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#32 Post by P. Willenberg » December 27th, 2016, 9:44 am

Henry Kiichli wrote:Many cheeses do not go with red wine.
fact. cheese coats the mouth and inhibits your ability to taste wine.
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#33 Post by Mark C » December 27th, 2016, 9:48 am

Travel shock is a myth, especially for older Nebbiolo.
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#34 Post by Corey N. » December 27th, 2016, 9:50 am

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
Corey N. wrote:The vanguard of American winemaking is more exciting than any place in Europe.
Such as?
The three that come immediately to mind are Chris Brockaway (Broc Cellars), Abe Schoener (Scholium Project), and Hardy Wallace (Dirty & Rowdy). They are experimenting using unloved grapes, lowering alcohol levels, etc. The nascent US winemaking industry is not as bound by tradition as Europe, which allows for techniques that would be rejected, or even illegal, in the old world.

This doesn't necessarily mean that US wine is better now or that it will be better in the future. In fact, I have had wine from all 3 of the people I've named that I have not liked. Nonetheless, it's still quite interesting to see winemakers pushing the envelope.
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#35 Post by Neal.Mollen » December 27th, 2016, 9:53 am

Not only are you all wrong, you are funny doing it. Bravo.
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#36 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » December 27th, 2016, 9:58 am

Gotta put Morgan in that Vanguardia. Love what he's doing with field blends.

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#37 Post by andy velebil » December 27th, 2016, 10:02 am

Most people's palate's aren't as good as they think it is. Give them a highly loved and rated wine double blind, especially from one of their favorite producers, and see what happens.

Conversely, most wines are not as good as people think (label bias).
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#38 Post by MitchTallan » December 27th, 2016, 10:09 am

I suppose my unpopular wine opinions are;

Those who say that alcohol level is immaterial as long as the wine is "balanced" are full of it.

Bigger is not better.

The California wine-making scene, by and large, has been in stunted-growth mode since the early 1980's. So much more could have been done to match vineyard location with variety with wine making practices but for all kinds of economic factors that got in the way. A corollary to this is that of all the major wine making regions of the World, California is afflicted with the most "ego pricing".

Of all the major California red varieties, syrah improves the least with advanced years.

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#39 Post by Scott G r u n e r » December 27th, 2016, 10:40 am

Love this thread. The "bah humbug" thread!

Agree on many:

Stemware overrated and overpriced

Aging- many that age dont actually improve with age.

High Alcohol wine is most often overripe and unbalanced, especially pinot

Most California Pinot is high alcohol

Many many $$$ wines are chased for the label and exclusivity of ownership as opposed to the juice inside.

Many wine afficionados are alcoholics
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#40 Post by MBerto » December 27th, 2016, 10:55 am

Blake R Maso wrote:Champagne doesn't taste good enough to merit paying more than $20/btl.
Are you saying you don't like Champange/Sparklers enough to pay more than that, period, or you think the ones that cost more than $20 aren't worth it? My gut reaction was "Jeez what an awful opinion" but then I realized that although I love Champagne, I think everything over ~$75 isn't worth it.

I ALSO think sparkling wine gets demonstrably worse with age and should be consumed fresh/young (and I like other aged whites!)
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#41 Post by Brian Tuite » December 27th, 2016, 11:01 am

S. Stevenson wrote:Red wines do not need to 'breath' prior to drinking(studies already have proven this).
BS
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#42 Post by larry schaffer » December 27th, 2016, 11:10 am

Loving this thread and it'll be interesting to see where it goes. I'm hoping that it stays civil :-)
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#43 Post by Corey N. » December 27th, 2016, 11:12 am

Bobby Orlando doesn't know as much about wine as he pretends, he just uses it as an alcohol delivery device so he can seduce unsuspecting Jewish men.

This isn't really an opinion so much as it is incontrovertible fact.
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#44 Post by JIMCOH » December 27th, 2016, 11:21 am

Brian Tuite wrote:Aged Riesling is nasty.
Yea, it smells like diesel fuel and tastes almost as bad.
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#45 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » December 27th, 2016, 11:21 am

With a few exceptions, natural wine tastes bad.

Travel shock is real.

Zalto stems are nothing special.

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#46 Post by Matthew King » December 27th, 2016, 11:29 am

Bah humbug time:

Burgundy lovers have to rationalize away the fact that most bottles they open aren't as good as they thought they would be and rarely worth the money they spent on it.

The concept that the "last glass" was best may be true but it's only because the taster was buzzed not because the wine opened up.

Bottles tasted second and third days are never as fresh or interesting as the initial day.

People may use the intellectual aspect of wine collecting to mask overconsumption or over-purchasing, which in turn mask other psychological issues. (Ouch!)
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#47 Post by Dennis Borczon » December 27th, 2016, 11:33 am

Jonathan Grunzweig wrote:What an awesome thread! My niche controversy-starter: most expressions of Sangiovese are uninspiring, Soldera being the exception that proves the rule (and I love Italian wine).

Happy holidays,
JG
I do not love all Italian wine, and THIS is the major explanation. It is no accident that unlike cabernnet, syrah, heck, even pinot and grenache, there is almost nowhere else in the world sangiovese is grown and vinified into something interesting.....

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#48 Post by Michael S. Monie » December 27th, 2016, 11:35 am

Matthew King wrote:Bah humbug time:

Burgundy lovers have to rationalize away the fact that most bottles they open aren't as good as they thought they would be and rarely near the money they spent on it.

The concept that the "last glass" was best may be true but it's only because the taster was buzzed not because the wine opened up.

Bottles tasted second and third days are never as fresh or interesting as the initial day.

People may use the intellectual aspect of wine collecting to mask overconsumption or over-purchasing, which in turn mask other psychological issues. (Ouch!)
I have to take issue with number three. Some wines built for the long haul will bloom on the second day. Bartolo Mascarello's 2010 Barolo is a good example.
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#49 Post by Joe B » December 27th, 2016, 11:48 am

Champagne is the exact same thing as sparkling wine.
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#50 Post by E. Mark Larson » December 27th, 2016, 11:55 am

Tie for the most meaningless information on U.S. wine labels:

-- Health warning.

-- Alcohol content.

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