The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

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Warren Taranow
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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#1 Post by Warren Taranow » July 10th, 2016, 10:23 am

Here's a some I'm afraid to say aloud, as I doubt I pronounce them correctly:

Vajra

Bourgueil (I might be pronouncing this right)

Garblèt Sué (as in Brovia)

Ghemme

Auxey-Duresses

Printemps

Les Peuillets

Sèvre-et-Maine


Thanks!
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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#2 Post by Mark C Johnson » July 10th, 2016, 10:44 am

I'll take a stab.

Vazh rah

Burr goi

Gar blet sue a

Oh say du ress

Preen tomz

leh pwi etts

sehv a may 'n
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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#3 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » July 10th, 2016, 10:53 am

Mark C Johnson wrote:I'll take a stab.

Vazh rah

Burr goi

Gar blet sue a

Oh say du ress

Preen tomz

leh pwi etts

sehv a may 'n
Two corrections. Printemps has two sounds that don't quite exist in English, but Prin rhymes with vin and en is like saying en France.

Because of the liason, it is Sev ray men

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#4 Post by john stimson » July 10th, 2016, 11:05 am

I've been saying Vaira for Vajra as that's how the family spells it's name, and seems to say it's name when they've been in town.

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#5 Post by Chris S i n g h » July 10th, 2016, 11:10 am

Quivet - any help on this one?

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#6 Post by Mark C Johnson » July 10th, 2016, 11:21 am

Thanks for the corrections Jonathan and John. My french is quite rusty and I don't speak any italian.

Chris: I always pronounce it key vet.
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#7 Post by GregT » July 10th, 2016, 11:52 am

Printemps is kind of like a combination of prahn and prin without emphasizing the "n" and the temps is said with a very soft "p" that almost fades away making it sound like "tom". But the vowels are made in the back of the throat, so there's no real English equivalent.

And their "r" is not like a midwestern American "r" either - that's a uniquely American sound that other people have trouble with.

For the "in", you can try saying "sang" but stop just before you get to the "ng" part and make it more nasal.

For Bourgueil, you can start by saying "boo" like a ghost and then adding the "r" that you swallow, almost making a gargling sound, and then the "geuil" sounds a little like "goy" but it actually has a rising inflection on the end.

Unlike Italian and Spanish, French is pronounced more in the back of the throat and it seems like they're swallowing their words. The other two are much brighter, coming from the front of the mouth, and that's why there are so many great opera singers who are Spanish or Italian - they're almost made to sing. And easier languages for Americans.

But you can get your own pronunciation guides - go to a site like Forvo, or howtopronounce, or something like that and you can get an audio example. Keep in mind that people from different areas have different accents though!
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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#8 Post by Warren Taranow » July 10th, 2016, 12:16 pm

How about Huet? Is it a French pronunciation, or Dutch? oo-Ay or Hyoo-et, or neither?
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#9 Post by Drew Goin » July 10th, 2016, 12:25 pm

I just learned that a few Sonoma vineyards are pronounced completely differently from my expectations...

Saitone is not "Say-Tone" (I didn't know that).

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#10 Post by Drew Goin » July 10th, 2016, 12:31 pm

Warren Taranow wrote:How about Huet? Is it a French pronunciation, or Dutch? oo-Ay or Hyoo-et, or neither?
I think it's closer to the latter.

https://www.howtopronounce.com/french/huet/

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#11 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » July 10th, 2016, 12:50 pm

The u sound in French can be produced by pursing our lips as if to whistle (you know how to whistle, Steve, don"t you? You just put your lips together and blow) and then trying to say e. That will be the first syllable of Huet. I have heard both ett and ay for the second syllable. I think it is et.

That non English u sound matters. The difference between saying "above" and "below" for instance rests entirely on either putting your lips together and blowing or pronouncing the American flat oo.

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#12 Post by Dennis Kanagie » July 10th, 2016, 1:07 pm

I love to see people butcher French. It warms my red, white, and blue American heart. Mostly because I know that as bad as I am, there are a lot worse.

It takes a LONG time to make your American English speaking brain accept that Chambolle Musigny is sham-bowl moo-zig-knee. The Ugly American in us always wants to make the Mu into mew and the Cham a harder sound than as it's correctly pronounced. [snort.gif]
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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#13 Post by Todd Tucker » July 10th, 2016, 1:48 pm

Vajra is pronounced "vi ruh"

with the i being a long i, rhyming with "pie", accent on the first syllable.

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#14 Post by Brian Tuite » July 10th, 2016, 1:56 pm

Chris S i n g h wrote:Quivet - any help on this one?
Kwiv it
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#15 Post by Ian Sutton » July 10th, 2016, 1:57 pm

Indeed Vajra is a little confusing for many, especially as j is in theory not part of the Italian alphabet. Think of the alternative spelling Vaira and remember the first bit rhymes with 'why' - or try to sound like a transylvanian count [wink.gif]
Ghemme is pretty easy, just remember that the 'e' on the end sounds more like our 'ay' - also useful to remember this when saying grazie.
Barolo is one that looks easy, but remember to emphasise the 1st syllable e.g. BAH-rolo and try the roll the 'r' (something that doesn't come naturally to me).
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#16 Post by Brian Tuite » July 10th, 2016, 1:57 pm

Drew Goin wrote:I just learned that a few Sonoma vineyards are pronounced completely differently from my expectations...

Saitone is not "Say-Tone" (I didn't know that).

Sī tōn
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#17 Post by Ian Sutton » July 10th, 2016, 2:01 pm

Once you've got all those, have a go at the Norfolk pronunciation of Happisburgh. Language can be stupid sometimes!
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#18 Post by Brian Tuite » July 10th, 2016, 2:06 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:Once you've got all those, have a go at the Norfolk pronunciation of Happisburgh. Language can be stupid sometimes!
I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't Google/Wiki it. Brutal!
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#19 Post by A. So » July 10th, 2016, 4:22 pm

Dennis Kanagie wrote: It takes a LONG time to make your American English speaking brain accept that Chambolle Musigny is sham-bowl moo-zig-knee
Because it's not.
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#20 Post by Dennis Kanagie » July 10th, 2016, 8:03 pm

A. So wrote:
Dennis Kanagie wrote: It takes a LONG time to make your American English speaking brain accept that Chambolle Musigny is sham-bowl moo-zig-knee
Because it's not.
Okay, so how would you attempt to spell it phonetically? Google how to pronounce that name and tell me your super-excellent better-than-mine interpretation.
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#21 Post by Guillaume Deschamps » July 10th, 2016, 8:19 pm

Dennis Kanagie wrote:
A. So wrote:
Dennis Kanagie wrote: It takes a LONG time to make your American English speaking brain accept that Chambolle Musigny is sham-bowl moo-zig-knee
Because it's not.
Okay, so how would you attempt to spell it phonetically? Google how to pronounce that name and tell me your super-excellent better-than-mine interpretation.
Well it's because it's using sounds that don't exist in English, specifically in that word: am, o, u, gn. There are indications above in this thread on how to pronounce the am part (like the em in temps), same for the u.

Actually the "am" sound in Chambolle is key in French and can be spelled in so many ways. The bolded part in the following words is pronounced exactly the same:
Chambolle
Champ
Champs
Temps
Content
Contents
Attend
Attends
Avant
Mens
Penser
Lancer
...

But of course it doesn't really help either because the same group of letters in another word might be pronounced completely differently (chameau, comptent, lanière...)
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#22 Post by GregT » July 10th, 2016, 10:28 pm

Guillaume - thank you for pointing out that the same sound can come from different letters. My mother was my first French teacher and that's one thing that I never got until much later in my life - you just learned how certain words were said and that was that. For an American, it's one thing that makes French so difficult.
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#23 Post by Alan Rath » July 10th, 2016, 10:31 pm

Warren Taranow wrote:How about Huet? Is it a French pronunciation, or Dutch? oo-Ay or Hyoo-et, or neither?
At the winery, they pronounce it you-et, with a slight emphasis on the second syllable. Easy to pronounce, which makes it one of my favorite producers :)
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#24 Post by Soren R Nielsen » July 10th, 2016, 10:35 pm

Reminds Me of this old one :
Bernard Shaw once proposed the spelling ghoti for "fish", with the [gh] from "laugh", the [o] from "women" and the [ti] from "nation".

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#25 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » July 11th, 2016, 12:02 am

Dennis Kanagie wrote:
A. So wrote:
Dennis Kanagie wrote: It takes a LONG time to make your American English speaking brain accept that Chambolle Musigny is sham-bowl moo-zig-knee
Because it's not.
Okay, so how would you attempt to spell it phonetically? Google how to pronounce that name and tell me your super-excellent better-than-mine interpretation.
Putting aside the question of the first syllable, which would need true phonetic signs rather than near English equivalents, the last three syllables are mu (put your lips together and blow) see nyee and not zig nee.

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#26 Post by Soren R Nielsen » July 11th, 2016, 12:12 am

This also comes close
https://www.howtopronounce.com/french/c ... e-musigny/

click on purple icon next to green word.

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#27 Post by Andrew Hamilton » July 11th, 2016, 12:47 am

I've always found this page quite useful...

http://burgundylist.com/burgundy-wine-p ... ation.html

Sadly Chambolle isn't on there. Auxey-Duresses is though.
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#28 Post by Veronica Castro » July 11th, 2016, 1:15 am

There's a ton of wine pronunciation guides online. Here are a few of the better ones.
Also, there are a couple of apps designed for wine pronunciation, but for what's available right now, you are better off looking on the web.

Burgundy:
http://burgundylist.com/burgundy-wine-p ... ation.html

Bordeaux
http://www.smallbarrels.com/bordeaux-pr ... tion-guide

Italian - http://vino-italiano.blogspot.com/
more Italian: https://www.dalluva.com/wine-journal/ho ... ine-names/

Greek: http://www.allaboutgreekwine.com/varieties.htm

General pronunciation:

http://tastersguildny.com/pronouncingglossary.shtml

http://education.mhusa.com/pronounce.asp

Rather limited and clunky interface, but good effort
http://www.palmbay.com/audio_search.asp

This last one is Crazy, and goes off in many tangents, but interesting
http://audioeloquence.com/

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#29 Post by g.colangelo » July 11th, 2016, 1:28 am

Ian Sutton wrote: Ghemme is pretty easy, just remember that the 'e' on the end sounds more like our 'ay' - also useful to remember this when saying grazie.
Ian, that is surprising to me. You mean "ay" like in "say" or "lay"? Well then no, not at all. The two "e" in Ghemme should be pronounced exactly the same. And "Ghe" at the beginning should be pronounced like in "get" (without the t of course).
Ian Sutton wrote: Barolo is one that looks easy, but remember to emphasise the 1st syllable e.g. BAH-rolo and try the roll the 'r' (something that doesn't come naturally to me).
Well, one should pronounce all three vowels fully, which I think is what you mean, but the stress should be on the second syllable.
A similar word which has the stress on the first syllable is "tavolo" - if you know how that sound, Barolo should not be pronounced in a similar way.
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#30 Post by J a y H a c k » July 11th, 2016, 5:13 am

What do you call a person who speaks three languages?

Trilingual

What do you call a person who speaks two languages?

Bilingual

What do you call a person who speaks one language?
Click to see spoiler:
An American.
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#31 Post by Ian Sutton » July 11th, 2016, 1:37 pm

J a y H a c k wrote:What do you call a person who speaks three languages?

Trilingual

What do you call a person who speaks two languages?

Bilingual

What do you call a person who speaks one language?
Click to see spoiler:
An American.
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#32 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » July 11th, 2016, 2:07 pm

A couple of thoughts...

First, I am a stickler for proper pronunciation in most cases. There are some things, however, that just sound so pretentious and affected when said correctly by an English speaker during the course of a conversation in English, that, despite being technically correct, should be avoided, I think.

Second, the question of where the accent falls in multi-syllabic words can be a tricky one, since not all languages are as heavily stressed as others. English is particularly insistent about the stressed syllable(s), so we English speakers want to insist words in other languages should behave the same. It's hard for us to get our heads out of the music, if you will, of our own language and into the music of another - in some ways even more difficult than making the French "u" sound or the guttural "r" or the German "ch."

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#33 Post by John Morris » July 11th, 2016, 2:55 pm

Todd Tucker wrote:Vajra is pronounced "vi ruh"

with the i being a long i, rhyming with "pie", accent on the first syllable.
That's right. It's like Gaja (guy-yah). In Piemontese dialect, the J after an A is like an I. Other examples are the vineyard Rabaja (rah-by-yah) and egg-heavy Piemontese fettucini, tajarin (tie-ya-rin). In these, I think the I forms a dipthong with the A that's close to tie or guy in English.

I can't think of an example of a J after any other vowel, but I'm no esperto di dialetto. Oliver McCrum knows a fair deal of Piemontese, so he would be the one to ask for more examples.
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#34 Post by Chris Seiber » July 11th, 2016, 3:11 pm

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:
Second, the question of where the accent falls in multi-syllabic words can be a tricky one, since not all languages are as heavily stressed as others.
There really isn't accenting in multisyllabic French words, as far as I understand. That is one of the important keys to learning how to pronounce French words.

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#35 Post by John Morris » July 11th, 2016, 4:09 pm

Dennis Kanagie wrote:It takes a LONG time to make your American English speaking brain accept that Chambolle Musigny is sham-bowl moo-zig-knee.

....
Okay, so how would you attempt to spell it phonetically? Google how to pronounce that name and tell me your super-excellent better-than-mine interpretation.
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:Putting aside the question of the first syllable, which would need true phonetic signs rather than near English equivalents, the last three syllables are mu (put your lips together and blow) see nyee and not zig nee.
Jonathan has it right.

Dennis - The G is not sounded. (Hopefully you don't pronounce a hard G in Champagne.) Instead it alters the consonant after it. Something similar happens in Italian with a G before an N, so there is not audible G in tagliarini -- it's pronounced tah-lyi-a-ri-ni. (If you've been saying tag-lee-ah-ri-ni your whole life, I hope this won't come as too much of a shock. You have lots of company.)

Other consonants in French are also altered by what preceeds them: E.g., vieille, which is (VERY roughly) pronounced sort of vee-ay-yah.
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#36 Post by Jorge Henriquez » July 11th, 2016, 4:26 pm

Treat the "gny" in Musigny the same way you'd treat the "gna" in "lasagna".
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#37 Post by John Morris » July 11th, 2016, 4:38 pm

Jorge Henriquez wrote:Treat the "gny" in Musigny the same way you'd treat the "gna" in "lasagna".
That's the example we needed! (And NOT like most American's treat the GL in tagliarini.)
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#38 Post by Dennis Kanagie » July 11th, 2016, 7:39 pm

John Morris wrote:
Jorge Henriquez wrote:Treat the "gny" in Musigny the same way you'd treat the "gna" in "lasagna".
That's the example we needed!
Shazam! I didn't know how to spell it phonetically in American English. [wink.gif] Didn't even think of the word "lasagna". U da man Whore-hay. (oh yes I did go there!).
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#39 Post by Guillaume Deschamps » July 12th, 2016, 2:16 am

GregT wrote:Guillaume - thank you for pointing out that the same sound can come from different letters. My mother was my first French teacher and that's one thing that I never got until much later in my life - you just learned how certain words were said and that was that. For an American, it's one thing that makes French so difficult.
The good thing is that it's pretty much the same in English, it can be downright impossible to guess how to pronounce a word just based on its spelling, so we're equals in this sense!
Chris Seiber wrote:
Sarah Kirschbaum wrote:Second, the question of where the accent falls in multi-syllabic words can be a tricky one, since not all languages are as heavily stressed as others.
There really isn't accenting in multisyllabic French words, as far as I understand. That is one of the important keys to learning how to pronounce French words.
This is very important and leads to a lot of misunderstandings. Put the stress where it doesn't belong and suddenly natives won't understand the word any more. BUT in French there's basically no stress, at least not at the syllable level but rather at the word or even sentence level.

See e.g. the Wikipedia article :
However, some languages, such as French and Mandarin, are sometimes analyzed as lacking lexical stress entirely.
French words are sometimes said to be stressed on the final syllable, but this can be attributed to the prosodic stress that is placed on the final syllable (or, if that is a schwa, the next-to-final syllable) of any string of words in that language, and hence also on the last syllable of a word analyzed in isolation.
The schwa happens e.g. in Morey-Saint-Denis, where the 'e' in the last word is very rarely pronounced, so it sounds like "dnee".

But I can understand that it's tough when your native language makes ample use of stress (English, Italian...) to try to speak in an apparent monotone.

Another issue is that most vowels in French are a lot shorter than in English, so it often sounds like Sham-BOWWWWWWWL Moose-y-GNEEEEEEE to our ears because of the extra, unwelcome stress on vowels. It's usually a good idea to try to clip the vowels a bit.
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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#40 Post by Soren R Nielsen » July 12th, 2016, 2:42 am

Guillaume, how does this pronunciation of Chambolle Musigny, sound to Your French ears ?
Soren R Nielsen wrote:This also comes close
https://www.howtopronounce.com/french/c ... e-musigny/

click on purple icon next to green word.
It's pronounced very short and fast.

-Soren.

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#41 Post by Guillaume Deschamps » July 12th, 2016, 4:23 am

Soren R Nielsen wrote:It's pronounced very short and fast.
The Musigny part sounds good, the Chambolle part not so much (especially the beginning). The voice sounds automated.

I tried to record a new version on that site but that didn't seem to work, so I recorded a version here:
ITB @roumegaire roumegaire.com

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#42 Post by Soren R Nielsen » July 12th, 2016, 6:18 am

Thank You, for speaking the French words.
And thank You for the link, to this "Recording voice" site.

Kind regards, Soren.

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#43 Post by Doug Schulman » July 12th, 2016, 7:42 am

Veronica Castro wrote:There's a ton of wine pronunciation guides online. Here are a few of the better ones.
Also, there are a couple of apps designed for wine pronunciation, but for what's available right now, you are better off looking on the web.

Burgundy:
http://burgundylist.com/burgundy-wine-p ... ation.html

Bordeaux
http://www.smallbarrels.com/bordeaux-pr ... tion-guide

Italian - http://vino-italiano.blogspot.com/
more Italian: https://www.dalluva.com/wine-journal/ho ... ine-names/

Greek: http://www.allaboutgreekwine.com/varieties.htm

General pronunciation:

http://tastersguildny.com/pronouncingglossary.shtml

http://education.mhusa.com/pronounce.asp

Rather limited and clunky interface, but good effort
http://www.palmbay.com/audio_search.asp

This last one is Crazy, and goes off in many tangents, but interesting
http://audioeloquence.com/

Cheers!
Nice list. For general pronunciation, I've found this one to be very helpful and quite accurate. Of course, in cases like Huet, there are regional dialects at work, so no single source is perfect.

http://www.acapela-group.com/
ITB - retail sales and education

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#44 Post by Oliver McCrum » July 12th, 2016, 10:24 am

John,

I have always had the ambition of learning some Piedmontese, but so far I've not gotten much further than 'Va bing.' I once spent a lunch trying to master the pronunciation of the word for 'fork' and never quite got it.

The 'J' in Vajra is Piedmontese, though, as you suggest, not Italian.
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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#45 Post by Chris Seiber » July 12th, 2016, 10:49 am

How do you pronounce Gabriel Glas? Is it just like Roman Gabriel's last name and then the word glass?

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#46 Post by Neal.Mollen » July 12th, 2016, 10:55 am

Soren R Nielsen wrote:This also comes close
https://www.howtopronounce.com/french/c ... e-musigny/

click on purple icon next to green word.
That's what I thought. You people had me confused!
I don't have to speak; she defends me

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#47 Post by Neal.Mollen » July 12th, 2016, 11:23 am

Guillaume Deschamps wrote:
Soren R Nielsen wrote:It's pronounced very short and fast.
The Musigny part sounds good, the Chambolle part not so much (especially the beginning). The voice sounds automated.

I tried to record a new version on that site but that didn't seem to work, so I recorded a version here:
You were almost perfect! (Thanks for conforming I haven't been making too big an ass of myself)
I don't have to speak; she defends me

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#48 Post by Ian Sutton » July 12th, 2016, 11:26 am

g.colangelo wrote:
Ian Sutton wrote: Ghemme is pretty easy, just remember that the 'e' on the end sounds more like our 'ay' - also useful to remember this when saying grazie.
Ian, that is surprising to me. You mean "ay" like in "say" or "lay"? Well then no, not at all. The two "e" in Ghemme should be pronounced exactly the same. And "Ghe" at the beginning should be pronounced like in "get" (without the t of course).
Hi Gilberto
I said more like, not necessarily exactly the same as. I see your point to a degree, but definitely don't agree if you're saying it's pronounced like Ghem-meh. I do though wonder whether we are hearing these things the same. Maybe our own accents differ?

FWIW here's a recording on You Tube which I think will help.


regards
Ian
Last edited by Ian Sutton on July 12th, 2016, 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Normal for Norfolk

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#49 Post by Chris Seiber » July 12th, 2016, 11:29 am

How do you pronounce Bolgheri?

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The "How do you pronounce this?" Thread

#50 Post by Neal.Mollen » July 12th, 2016, 11:44 am

Wait . . ."Aligote" is allee-goatay? You pronounce the e as if it had an accent grave?

The problem with these wine pronunciations is that they are proper nouns, and sometimes don't follow the same rules one would follow if they were not.
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A drunkard's dream if I ever did see one

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