Changing Bordeaun't to Bordieu

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
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Dennis Kanagie
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#1 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 17th, 2016, 9:20 pm

Okay guys, feel free to hammer me for the hard time I've given you about Bordeaux. However, include a recommendation for a bottle that ready to drink within these parameters:

- Less than $250 per 750ml, hopefully between $100 and $175.
- As little pencil shavings odor as possible, preferably none.
- 1995 seems to be a go-to year for me, but open to other possibilities.

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#2 Post by Craig G » June 17th, 2016, 9:38 pm

1989 Ch. La Dominique, $100 from HDH.
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#3 Post by Arv R » June 18th, 2016, 12:10 am

That's actually a generous price altitude, and will open up doors to great examples. Although Bordeaux has the perception of being costly, enthusiasts can find estates, vintages, and sales/deals where maximum stupidity is mildly thwarted.

And Dennis, I think we have a similar palate given our mutual fondness for Arrowood, Chappellet etc. (I'm assuming you didn't care for my QPR suggestion of Charmail many threads ago, but I'll proffer up more names in cheery chauvinism)

86 Talbot - I think its the best Talbot they've ever made, and within your price range. Some snobs might sneer, since Talbot is a large production wine, and not 'rare'. But Cordier as a house was really hitting it out of the park in the 80's. It is more 'funky' than pencil leady, at least in my recollection, but it's an amazing Bordeaux.

90 Canon-la-Gaffelière - This is/was an expensive wine on release, but 1990 never went up in price later as much as comparable quality wines, nor recent releases. It's a candied, rich example of a right bank wine, in a modern style rather than the old school Talbot above.

96 Pichon Lalande - this has tripled in price over recent years and may have exited your price ceilings. Despite that unhappy fact, it's been a great wine every time I've had it. I really don't think there is much difference between it and the 82 nor 86. They are all extraordinary, but hopefully less fraud risks with this year.

Those are all ready to be drunk now, and (hopefully) do not have that much fraud risk if acquiring bottles from unknown sources, today. They are also reasonably consensus choices (I think) in that they are not extreme points from any style/vintage camps, as well as being great benchmark/best examples of the estates involved.

Obviously there are tons more potential ideas -- I'm eager to see what other names people offer up here -- but I'd be remiss if I didn't reiterate that there is tons of great BDX, at lower price points (and prestige levels) than what you've allocated. Bordeaux is the main feedstock for our household drinking machine, and its not at the exalted 1e, 2e, 3e levels.

PS: there is actually a Medoc with the name le Bourdieu. I've got an (untasted) 2009 sitting nervously on my 'to drink' shelf.
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#4 Post by David Glasser » June 18th, 2016, 5:56 am

1995 Clinet and L'Evangile should fulfill all your criteria. Have had both within the past 6 months.

They haven't yet reached full-on tertiary complexity yet but given an hour or two of air they are drinking very well. Foresty and piney notes and plenty of tannin but the fruit is there to balance, and no pencil shavings. WSPro is showing multiple offers in the $150-200 range.

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#5 Post by Chris Foley » June 18th, 2016, 6:02 am

+1 on '86 Talbot
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#6 Post by David Glasser » June 18th, 2016, 6:32 am

And another vote for 1986 Talbot. I prefer it to either of my Pomerol suggestions for drinking now. Was one of my first ever case purchases but sadly they are all gone.

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#7 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 18th, 2016, 8:33 am

Working on a few of these suggestions, including one via PM from Mark.

ps - there's already a '95 Clinet in one of the Danby fridges.
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#8 Post by Jeff Leve » June 18th, 2016, 10:01 am

Dennis Kanagie wrote:Okay guys, feel free to hammer me for the hard time I've given you about Bordeaux. However, include a recommendation for a bottle that ready to drink within these parameters:

- Less than $250 per 750ml, hopefully between $100 and $175.
- As little pencil shavings odor as possible, preferably none. 1995 seems to be a go-to year for me, but open to other possibilities.
FWIW, there are stacks of Bordeaux under $100 that are really fine, although those are often young, 10 years or under in age. You can spend more, but you do not have to. If you do not like lead pencil, which is not something I find often, but when I do, it's in Pauillac and St. Julien mostly, avoid those regions, especially with bottle age.

Personally, 1995 is one of my least favorite vintages, because I find it hard and very strict in style. But we all like different things in wine.

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#9 Post by Arv R » June 18th, 2016, 10:09 am

As the years have gone by, I too have been less and less enthused about the 1995s, except for the St Emilion/Pomerols.
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#10 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 18th, 2016, 10:17 am

Jeff Leve wrote: FWIW, there are stacks of Bordeaux under $100 that are really fine, although those are often young, 10 years or under in age. You can spend more, but you do not have to. If you do not like lead pencil, which is not something I find often, but when I do, it's in Pauillac and St. Julien mostly, avoid those regions, especially with bottle age.
I'm open to suggestions, especially if it's relatively cheap. [cheers.gif]
Jeff Leve wrote:Personally, 1995 is one of my least favorite vintages, because I find it hard and very strict in style. But we all like different things in wine.
It doesn't have to be 1995, I just threw that year out because I liked a lot of Burgundy, Cab, and Vouvray from that vintage. Got an excellent recommendation for 1998 La Conseillante from a Berserker last year.
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#11 Post by Soren R Nielsen » June 18th, 2016, 10:52 am

Reg. 1995 vintage.
I agree with Jeff. It was praised on release by Chateaux and critics. The previous years, 91-92-93-94, all had their issues. Finally 1995, which looked superior. Wait and You will be rewarded, was the word.
-I'm still waiting.
"..hard and strict in style" , exactly ! Most left bank 95's are disappointing today, compared to 1996, and IMO, even to a few 1994's.
The right bank 95's should be better, I hear. But I haven't had enough 95's lately, to tell.

Btw. I love the cedar/lead pencil, when drinking old/very old Pauillacs, and feel disappointed if these notes are weak..

I hope You'll find a juicy, mature Bordeaux, or a couple.

Best regards, Soren.
Last edited by Soren R Nielsen on June 18th, 2016, 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#12 Post by Soren R Nielsen » June 18th, 2016, 11:00 am

1998 excellent year for right bank. Almost buy blind, if price is right.
I went deep, in right bank that year. Full power wines. Remember the "New Pavie" was born 1998. (and many other St.Em. and Poms changed style around 98.)

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#13 Post by David Glasser » June 18th, 2016, 11:53 am

I too agree re:1995, which is why I suggested Pomerols. 1998 Pomerols are much better, though you'll likely find them closer to the top of your price range.

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#14 Post by Craig G » June 18th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Dennis Kanagie wrote:Got an excellent recommendation for 1998 La Conseillante from a Berserker last year.
Yes, and that guy already recommended a wine here. Get that one.
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#15 Post by J.Durham » June 18th, 2016, 1:35 pm

Craig G wrote:
Dennis Kanagie wrote:Got an excellent recommendation for 1998 La Conseillante from a Berserker last year.
Yes, and that guy already recommended a wine here. Get that one.
I would have said '01 La Conseillante but haven't had the '98.
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#16 Post by J a y H a c k » June 18th, 2016, 4:02 pm

If you had come to the Berserkerfest, you could have had 1966 Clos Fourtet, 1966 Gruaud LaRose and 1978 Palmer. That would have given you a nice education to start off with.
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#17 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 18th, 2016, 4:07 pm

J a y H a c k wrote:If you had come to the Berserkerfest, you could have had 1966 Clos Fourtet, 1966 Gruaud LaRose and 1978 Palmer. That would have given you a nice education to start off with.
I know I missed out on a fun time. [cry.gif] Working in retail sucks. [swearing.gif] Maybe I'll sell my soul to get one day off on a holiday weekend next time.
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#18 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » June 18th, 2016, 4:27 pm

A tad more, but worth it. My best wine of all time.

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#19 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 18th, 2016, 6:11 pm

Craig G wrote:1989 Ch. La Dominique, $100 from HDH.
Bought! I'm hoping your batting average remains perfect.
Arv R wrote:86 Talbot
Chris Foley wrote:+1 on '86 Talbot
David Glasser wrote:And another vote for 1986 Talbot.
Sort of bought - none of the bottles of '86 at HDH had fill levels I was comfortable with, so I grabbed a '90 after checking CellarTracker. Seemed like a decent substitute and I know that was a pretty good vintage.

So far, so good. [cheers.gif]
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#20 Post by Ed Steinway » June 18th, 2016, 6:18 pm

1996 Pichon Lalande would be my first choice. If you are strictly looking for 1995, the 1995 Pichon Lalande and Ducru are both excellent.

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#21 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 18th, 2016, 8:20 pm

Dennis may have focussed on 1995 because I mentioned how good the VCC 1995 is in a PM to him. It is an exception to the the 1995, like others I find it an OK vintage but not exceptional.

At the top of the price range are some exceptional 1996s. Ducru, Las Cases and Pichon Lalande. Also Barton and Pape Clement at a lower price.

Some people have mentioned Right bank 1998s; totally agree with that and would urge you to look for Figeac, Pavie's last good vintage, Clos Fourtet and from the Graves Pape Clement.
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#22 Post by Bill Moore » June 19th, 2016, 4:01 am

I like all the recs given here, except I would focus my efforts on the 1980s wines. I feel it's in the 25-30 year window that Bordeaux really start to show their special character. I was once a big BDX skeptic like you (largely because of the often-galling prices), but great, mature examples made me an enthusiastic convert. What's lucky for you is that the 1980s included an exceptional run of vintages, came before any real Parker influences, and many are drinking very well now.

If you don't like the graphite, I'd stay away from Pauillac entirely and stick primarily to Graves and the Right Bank. Some good examples that are well within your range include Pape Clement (1986, 1988-1990), the 1986 Gruaud Larose, Magdelaine (1982, 1985, and 1989 are all great), and Canon (the 1989 is a personal favorite at an excellent price).

Glad to hear you're keeping an open mind.
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#23 Post by Blake R Maso » June 19th, 2016, 10:51 am

A lot of 01s are delicious right now. Pavie D is quite good, as is Pontet C and can be found well below your budget. 01 Le Plus (de fleur de Bouard) is rockin too. 05 Alter Ego can also be found on the cheap and is awesome. 03 PLL is also a stunner if your bottle is on, as is Troplong Mondot oddly enough..Those are ones I really liked that I think won't be on the top of everyone's mind.

To grossly over generalize, I'd pick 85/89/90 over 95/96. 98 in Pomerol and Top Pessac/Graves, and 01s are far more ready than 00s and are delicious.

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#24 Post by Neal.Mollen » June 19th, 2016, 10:55 am

1995 Grand Puy Lacoste is another highlight of the vintage, and almost certainly less expensive than the VCC now
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#25 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 19th, 2016, 11:07 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:1995 Grand Puy Lacoste is another highlight of the vintage, and almost certainly less expensive than the VCC now
Got one of them in a Danby next to the Clinet. [cheers.gif] However, one of your recent posts in the "What bottle did you open today" caused me to check that chateau out. There's currently one bottle from that house, along with a forum favorite mentioned in this thread, in my HDH cart. Gotta make a decision on those two, and then call it quits for a while as I'll have 7 different bottles to try from various vintages and producers spanning 1986 to 1995.

You guys are pretty cool to help a Beaunehead like me get Bordeaux.
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#26 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 19th, 2016, 7:04 pm

Okay, here's the rundown of Bordeaux as of now......

Currently in a Danby
1995 Clinet
1995 Grand Puy Lacoste
1998 La Conseillante

Weather Hold at HDH
1986 Pape-Clément
1989 La Dominique
1990 Talbot
1990 La Louvière Rouge

Freshly won from WineBid
1995 Vieux Chateau Certan

There's one or two other suggestions I'm considering too, but I think this is a good mix of vintages and producers to start.

Thanks everyone! [cheers.gif] Further reports as events warrant......
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#27 Post by Howard Cooper » June 19th, 2016, 7:32 pm

2001 Ducru Beaucaillou
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#28 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 20th, 2016, 4:11 am

Dennis Kanagie wrote:Okay, here's the rundown of Bordeaux as of now......

Currently in a Danby
1995 Clinet
1995 Grand Puy Lacoste
1998 La Conseillante

Weather Hold at HDH
1986 Pape-Clément
1989 La Dominique
1990 Talbot
1990 La Louvière Rouge

Freshly won from WineBid
1995 Vieux Chateau Certan

There's one or two other suggestions I'm considering too, but I think this is a good mix of vintages and producers to start.

Thanks everyone! [cheers.gif] Further reports as events warrant......
I would be very happy with that group of wines.

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#29 Post by Gerhard P. » June 20th, 2016, 4:28 am

Although Talbot 1996 is a great wine - it will most probably show some lead pencil ...

La Dominique 1989 is a very good call ....

I´d add a somewhat odd suggestion to the ones above, but believe me the wine (from a well-stored bottle) is very fine:

Pavie-Macquin 1997 !

La Conseillante 1989 might be over 250,- ....
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#30 Post by J.Durham » June 20th, 2016, 5:10 am

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:
Dennis Kanagie wrote:Okay, here's the rundown of Bordeaux as of now......

Currently in a Danby
1995 Clinet
1995 Grand Puy Lacoste
1998 La Conseillante

Weather Hold at HDH
1986 Pape-Clément
1989 La Dominique
1990 Talbot
1990 La Louvière Rouge

Freshly won from WineBid
1995 Vieux Chateau Certan

There's one or two other suggestions I'm considering too, but I think this is a good mix of vintages and producers to start.

Thanks everyone! [cheers.gif] Further reports as events warrant......
I would be very happy with that group of wines.
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#31 Post by Jay Miller » June 20th, 2016, 5:57 am

J a y H a c k wrote:If you had come to the Berserkerfest, you could have had 1966 Clos Fourtet, 1966 Gruaud LaRose and 1978 Palmer. That would have given you a nice education to start off with.
And the 1995 Grand Puy Lacoste which is what I was going to suggest.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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#32 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 20th, 2016, 6:15 am

I am thinking that Dennis must've been a very naughty boy in elementary school, getting his knuckles whacked by the school Teacher and her handy pencils. How can you not love pencil shavings and graphite in your Bordo? I want to chew on a number two right now. Pencil, that is.

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#33 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 20th, 2016, 6:43 am

Robert Alfert, Jr. wrote:I am thinking that Dennis must've been a very naughty boy in elementary school, getting his knuckles whacked by the school Teacher and her handy pencils. How can you not love pencil shavings and graphite in your Bordo? I want to chew on a number two right now. Pencil, that is.
Robert, were you in my classes? I bet you were one of those boys that laughed at the class clown's antics but never admitted to it. Clapping erasers, washing the blackboard (well, it was actually green in some classrooms), and EMPTYING THE PENCIL SHARPENERS were part of detention. That smell will forever be etched in my memory. Blech!!!!
vintage-Boston-KS-eight-hole-all-metal-hand-crank-desktop-pencil-sharpener-1stopretroshop-z615100-1.jpg
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#34 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 20th, 2016, 7:07 am

Nah, I usually just beat up the class clown. I was hyperactive like that. :-)

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#35 Post by Jay Miller » June 20th, 2016, 8:36 am

Dennis Kanagie wrote:
vintage-Boston-KS-eight-hole-all-metal-hand-crank-desktop-pencil-sharpener-1stopretroshop-z615100-1.jpg
I have one of those pencil sharpeners.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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#36 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 22nd, 2016, 3:35 pm

Among some damn fine bottles last night at our wine club was a '96 Haut Brion. Of course it's way more than my set budget, but day-yam! [drinkers.gif] It didn't take WOTN (a 2007 Verité was singing) but was certainly something I'd drink again. Just not buy at $400+ per 750ml bottle. [wink.gif]
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#37 Post by Howard Cooper » June 22nd, 2016, 6:50 pm

Dennis Kanagie wrote:Among some damn fine bottles last night at our wine club was a '96 Haut Brion. Of course it's way more than my set budget, but day-yam! [drinkers.gif] It didn't take WOTN (a 2007 Verité was singing) but was certainly something I'd drink again. Just not buy at $400+ per 750ml bottle. [wink.gif]
If you want a more affordable wine from the Graves, try Domaine de Chevalier
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#38 Post by Vince T » June 23rd, 2016, 12:30 pm

Had a '96 Cos for $130ish... Lovely bottle, wish I had more
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#39 Post by Jay Miller » June 23rd, 2016, 1:52 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
Dennis Kanagie wrote:Among some damn fine bottles last night at our wine club was a '96 Haut Brion. Of course it's way more than my set budget, but day-yam! [drinkers.gif] It didn't take WOTN (a 2007 Verité was singing) but was certainly something I'd drink again. Just not buy at $400+ per 750ml bottle. [wink.gif]
If you want a more affordable wine from the Graves, try Domaine de Chevalier
Or Louviere
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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#40 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » June 23rd, 2016, 1:55 pm

Chevalier and Louviere are most excellent suggestions!

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#41 Post by Kirk.Grant » June 23rd, 2016, 5:38 pm

Dennis, if you want to avoid smelling pencil shavings then I'd avoid Pauillac. To me it's one of the most common notes I get from Pauillac.
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#42 Post by Dennis Kanagie » June 23rd, 2016, 10:16 pm

Kirk.Grant wrote:Dennis, if you want to avoid smelling pencil shavings then I'd avoid Pauillac. To me it's one of the most common notes I get from Pauillac.
Yeah, it'll take a strange turn of events for me to drink Left Bank on any kind of regular basis. I've already taken a little ribbing over that from various members here and in my wine club about my association with elementary school detention and Lynch Bages.
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Changing Bordeaun't to Bordieu

#43 Post by Jud Reis » June 24th, 2016, 8:08 am

Dennis - I think you will really love that 90 Talbot - the past couple bottles I have had have been in a very good place, with plenty of life left. If you like funky burgundies, I think you might dig the Cordier funk from that era as well.

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Soren R Nielsen
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Changing Bordeaun't to Bordieu

#44 Post by Soren R Nielsen » June 24th, 2016, 8:22 am

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Howard Cooper
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Changing Bordeaun't to Bordieu

#45 Post by Howard Cooper » June 24th, 2016, 1:19 pm

Dennis Kanagie wrote:
Kirk.Grant wrote:Dennis, if you want to avoid smelling pencil shavings then I'd avoid Pauillac. To me it's one of the most common notes I get from Pauillac.
Yeah, it'll take a strange turn of events for me to drink Left Bank on any kind of regular basis. I've already taken a little ribbing over that from various members here and in my wine club about my association with elementary school detention and Lynch Bages.
Lynch Bages is a Paullac, which many here have suggested that you skip. But, try other left bank wines before you condemn them all. Try St. Julien (tend to be lusher with more fruit), Margaux (commune, not just estate) and Graves before you give up on left bank.

Also, making blanket statements about wine generally makes one sound silly in a year or two, even to yourself.
Howard

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things." Tyrion Lannister

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Arv R
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Re: Changing Bordeaun't to Bordieu

#46 Post by Arv R » December 2nd, 2019, 9:50 pm

Arv R wrote:
June 18th, 2016, 12:10 am
That's actually a generous price altitude, and will open up doors to great examples. Although Bordeaux has the perception of being costly, enthusiasts can find estates, vintages, and sales/deals where maximum stupidity is mildly thwarted.

And Dennis, I think we have a similar palate given our mutual fondness for Arrowood, Chappellet etc. (I'm assuming you didn't care for my QPR suggestion of Charmail many threads ago, but I'll proffer up more names in cheery chauvinism)

86 Talbot - I think its the best Talbot they've ever made, and within your price range. Some snobs might sneer, since Talbot is a large production wine, and not 'rare'. But Cordier as a house was really hitting it out of the park in the 80's. It is more 'funky' than pencil leady, at least in my recollection, but it's an amazing Bordeaux.

90 Canon-la-Gaffelière - This is/was an expensive wine on release, but 1990 never went up in price later as much as comparable quality wines, nor recent releases. It's a candied, rich example of a right bank wine, in a modern style rather than the old school Talbot above.

96 Pichon Lalande - this has tripled in price over recent years and may have exited your price ceilings. Despite that unhappy fact, it's been a great wine every time I've had it. I really don't think there is much difference between it and the 82 nor 86. They are all extraordinary, but hopefully less fraud risks with this year.

Those are all ready to be drunk now, and (hopefully) do not have that much fraud risk if acquiring bottles from unknown sources, today. They are also reasonably consensus choices (I think) in that they are not extreme points from any style/vintage camps, as well as being great benchmark/best examples of the estates involved.

Obviously there are tons more potential ideas -- I'm eager to see what other names people offer up here -- but I'd be remiss if I didn't reiterate that there is tons of great BDX, at lower price points (and prestige levels) than what you've allocated. Bordeaux is the main feedstock for our household drinking machine, and its not at the exalted 1e, 2e, 3e levels.

PS: there is actually a Medoc with the name le Bourdieu. I've got an (untasted) 2009 sitting nervously on my 'to drink' shelf.
I'm drinking the above mentioned 2009 le Bourdieu [Medoc] now. It's 13.5% abv, and shows some incense, iodine notes. Medium bodied, good balanced cranberry/cherry fruit, with some slight tannin on day 1. Day 2 those have slunk off, but just a bit of freshness/depth has also retreated. I would consider this to be a point. It reminds me of Greysac's of my youth - another merlot heavy left bank. For those who might consider the vintage characteristics of 2009 to be OTT, I don't think that consultant driven style leeched into the more modest estates like these. I picked this up some years ago from K&L and they always have a huge spectrum of midweek BDX for those willing to try them.
R_@_0

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