Germany 2015 really that great

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Alan Eden
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#1 Post by Alan Eden » May 21st, 2016, 3:46 pm

Is this genuinely a once in a lifetime vintage to jump on or is it just a very good vintage
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#2 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 21st, 2016, 4:14 pm

We have had a bunch of once in a lifetime vintages. I am buying, but not as if it's my only chance.
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#3 Post by Tvrtko C. » May 21st, 2016, 5:15 pm

Based on what we've seen so far, it is safe to assume that it is an excellent vintage. A genuinely once-in-a-lifetime vintage? Well, I think that depends on a) how long you've been around for, b) how long you intend to be around for, c) whether you're buying or selling, d) whether you believe in once-in-a-lifetime vintages :-)
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#4 Post by Kirk.Grant » May 21st, 2016, 5:18 pm

For me 2001 was the last "once in a lifetime" vintage. If this is as good as 2001...I'm buying all I can get my hands on.
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#5 Post by Dennis Kanagie » May 21st, 2016, 6:47 pm

Kirk.Grant wrote:For me 2001 was the last "once in a lifetime" vintage. If this is as good as 2001...I'm buying all I can get my hands on.
From your keyboard to the Wine Gods ears......

Alan, all I can tell you is that I'm in for 3 cases: JJ Prum Graacher Himmelreich Spatlese, JJ Prum Graacher Himmelreich Auslese, and a lower priced Mosel Spatlese. Might grab half a case of JJ Christoffer Erdener Treppchen Spatlese too. That's about triple what my normal "good" vintage purchase is. The last vintage I bought more than a combined case from all the Mosel producers we drink was 2011. (although I do kinda wish I bought more 2013)

2011, 2012, and 2013 were all pretty good vintages too. If 2015 does live up to the hype, I'll be happy as a pig in sheeyat. If 2015 is only as good as 2011 or 2013, I'll be merely smiling.
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#6 Post by Odd Rydland » May 22nd, 2016, 12:22 am

Just remember that the Prum Ausleses need 20 years to shed the sulphur and morph the sugar into something sublime......

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#7 Post by Russell Faulkner » May 22nd, 2016, 12:49 am

Many think that way Odd. I don't.

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#8 Post by Odd Rydland » May 22nd, 2016, 1:06 am

Being 65 years old and just having bought a single bottle of the 2014 Auslese, I wish I were in your camp. :-)

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#9 Post by Kirk.Grant » May 22nd, 2016, 4:11 am

Odd Rydland wrote:Just remember that the Prum Ausleses need 20 years to shed the sulphur and morph the sugar into something sublime......

I don't know...I've had the 2001 Joh. Jos. Prüm Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Auslese Goldkapsel multiple times in the last decade and it's been nothing but ethereal every time. Its a wine I wish I could buy in quantity again.
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#10 Post by A. So » May 22nd, 2016, 7:18 am

Odd Rydland wrote:Just remember that the Prum Ausleses need 20 years to shed the sulphur and morph the sugar into something sublime......
The Prüm sulphur is not a thing, at least for the last 3-4 vintages (a significant amount of which I drank on release). It is, for whatever reason, still a common trope about the wines. I will say the sponti character on JJ Prüm is quite distinctive though.

I buy riesling every vintage. I'll wait to decide for myself whether this is the second coming of 2001 before I load up.
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#11 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 22nd, 2016, 7:18 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:Many think that way Odd. I don't.
Nor do I.
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#12 Post by Eric Ifune » May 22nd, 2016, 7:43 am

Just remember that the Prum Ausleses need 20 years to shed the sulphur and morph the sugar into something sublime......
Perhaps not, but I would never, never turn down a 20 year old Prum Auslese.

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#13 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 22nd, 2016, 8:21 am

Eric Ifune wrote:
Just remember that the Prum Ausleses need 20 years to shed the sulphur and morph the sugar into something sublime......
Perhaps not, but I would never, never turn down a 20 year old Prum Auslese.
True.
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#14 Post by Alan Eden » May 22nd, 2016, 8:57 am

Thanks for input

I am only interested in trockens, maybe one day ill get into other styles but for now its just dry versions for me. Will these be drinkable early ? as everyone knows i love young red wines and am not a big fan of older but in good german wines i actually liked older bottles, ive never had good quality young though so would a young high quality trocken be fresh vibrant with strong acid and minerality ? is it OK to assume that the relationship between young and old German wines is the same as exists in other varietals ?
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#15 Post by Jeff Rosenberg » May 22nd, 2016, 9:05 am

It is interesting that most discussion about German Riesling centers on JJ Prum. Are their products so superior that one should look no further?

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#16 Post by Peter Kleban » May 22nd, 2016, 9:10 am

Jeff Rosenberg wrote:It is interesting that most discussion about German Riesling centers on JJ Prum. Are their products so superior that one should look no further?
No, they are one of the top producers, but far from the only one.
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#17 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 22nd, 2016, 9:36 am

Jeff Rosenberg wrote:It is interesting that most discussion about German Riesling centers on JJ Prum. Are their products so superior that one should look no further?
Prum is outstanding and pretty easy to get. But there are other producers that are equal (and to many people superior). Some (e.g. Egon Muller) are amazing, but really expensive, and tougher to acquire.
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#18 Post by Herwig Janssen » May 22nd, 2016, 9:36 am

Klaus Peter Keller is definitely also a top producer and he thinks 2015 are the best he ever made... I don't know how difficult it is to find , but it's worth the effort , I was told .

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#19 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 22nd, 2016, 9:57 am

Herwig Janssen wrote:Klaus Peter Keller is definitely also a top producer and he thinks 2015 are the best he ever made... I don't know how difficult it is to find , but it's worth the effort , I was told .
And that's 10-15 years in a row. ;)
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#20 Post by Dennis Kanagie » May 22nd, 2016, 11:55 am

Jeff Rosenberg wrote:It is interesting that most discussion about German Riesling centers on JJ Prum. Are their products so superior that one should look no further?

Superior in that what you get for the price is hard to beat. In short, they're the best QPR in Mosel IMO (and many other's opinion too).
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#21 Post by Tvrtko C. » May 22nd, 2016, 2:35 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
Herwig Janssen wrote:Klaus Peter Keller is definitely also a top producer and he thinks 2015 are the best he ever made... I don't know how difficult it is to find , but it's worth the effort , I was told .
And that's 10-15 years in a row. ;)
Exactly. Klaus Peter Keller always seems to think the current vintage is the best he's ever made. He, and several dozen exceptionally vociferous acolytes, that is.
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#22 Post by Peter Kleban » May 22nd, 2016, 2:39 pm

Other good ones include Clemens Busch, Willi Schaefer, Fritz Haag, and that's not at all a complete list.
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#23 Post by JeromeHan » May 22nd, 2016, 3:37 pm

Do the Prums normally need that much cellaring time across the board? Even for the Kabinetts? Would they just be a waste to drink young?

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#24 Post by Jay Miller » May 22nd, 2016, 3:56 pm

JeromeHan wrote:Do the Prums normally need that much cellaring time across the board? Even for the Kabinetts? Would they just be a waste to drink young?
Years ago they seemed very sulphury (sponti-y?) young but aged gloriously. Lately they've been much more enjoyable on release but like any other good wine shut down after a period of time and are not that enjoyable until they emerge on the other side.

So like so many other wines my philosophy is to drink them young or drink them old but not in between. And the Kabinetts also age beautifully.
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#25 Post by Ross Massey » May 22nd, 2016, 4:13 pm

Jay Miller wrote:Years ago they seemed very sulphury (sponti-y?) young but aged gloriously. Lately they've been much more enjoyable on release but like any other good wine shut down after a period of time and are not that enjoyable until they emerge on the other side.

So like so many other wines my philosophy is to drink them young or drink them old but not in between. And the Kabinetts also age beautifully.
I don't think it's sulfur. But that question is academic and will probably be argued for as long as people are talking about wine! No doubt that Prum is typically great with the right amount of age.

I agree that if you aren't drinking your Riesling on release, you should wait (typically about 7 years from the vintage date) to avoid the shut-down phase that hits a lot of the wines.
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#26 Post by Jay Miller » May 22nd, 2016, 4:52 pm

If it's even nearly as good as 2012 I'll be very happy. I've seen many vintages of a lifetime come and go over the years.
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#27 Post by Dennis Kanagie » May 22nd, 2016, 4:55 pm

JeromeHan wrote:Do the Prums normally need that much cellaring time across the board? Even for the Kabinetts? Would they just be a waste to drink young?
Nope, you can drink Prum young or aged. When they're young, the acidity, slate/minerality, and sweetness bounce around on your palate and make it fun to drink. You should get a 4 or 5 year window from release. For the next 5 to 10 years (depending on classification - the more sugar, the more time they should be cellared in general) they shut down a little but not completely so are still okay to drink. After 10 to 15 years (again, depending on classification) they start to show secondary flavors and the sugar and acid seem to smooth each other out for lack of a better description. 2001 G-H Auslese is exceptional right now as mentioned earlier in the thread. 1990 and 1983 are amazing wines. There are 2 more bottles of '83 W-S Auslese and 5 more bottles of '01 G-H Auslese in our Riesling Danby and we're saving them for special occasions.
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#28 Post by Matt Latuchie » May 22nd, 2016, 5:01 pm

2015 is the year i got married, and my wife is nuts for german riesling. so i'll end up buying quite a lot.
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#29 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 22nd, 2016, 5:15 pm

Matt Latuchie wrote:2015 is the year i got married, and my wife is nuts for german riesling. so i'll end up buying quite a lot.
That's a major green light if I ever did see one!

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#30 Post by Peter Kleban » May 22nd, 2016, 5:21 pm

I have some Prüm '06 Graacher Auslese Goldkapsel sleeping downstairs. Any predictions on when that might mature?
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#31 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 22nd, 2016, 5:42 pm

The '96s are starting to drink well, but mature? Fully? Hah!
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#32 Post by Peter Kleban » May 22nd, 2016, 5:45 pm

Well OK, how about not shut down?
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#33 Post by Howard Cooper » May 22nd, 2016, 6:04 pm

Matt Latuchie wrote:2015 is the year i got married, and my wife is nuts for german riesling. so i'll end up buying quite a lot.
Getting wine for the year you got married is always great. You get to buy the wine and she thinks you are being romantic. Win-win. [welldone.gif]
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#34 Post by Howard Cooper » May 22nd, 2016, 6:05 pm

Peter Kleban wrote:Well OK, how about not shut down?
Are you two talking about the same vintage.
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#35 Post by Dennis Kanagie » May 22nd, 2016, 6:09 pm

Peter Kleban wrote:I have some Prüm '06 Graacher Auslese Goldkapsel sleeping downstairs. Any predictions on when that might mature?
The regular Auslese is okay now but needs several more years of improvement. '06 and '03 were good (underrated) years for Auslese from Prum. You should hold them for at least 5 more years, probably more. We've been tracking the evolution of our lone case and it's a little closed now.
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#36 Post by Peter Kleban » May 22nd, 2016, 6:10 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
Peter Kleban wrote:Well OK, how about not shut down?
Are you two talking about the same vintage.
I meant the '06 Prüm Goldkapsel (see a few posts upstream)
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#37 Post by Martin Zwick » May 22nd, 2016, 10:32 pm

You all know my opinion about this vintage. It´s an exceptional vintage and whether this will be a 1971 or 2001 or 1975 or whatever vintage time will tell.

BTW, as the author is looking for trocken Riesling. I want to recommend a trocken Riesling which will hit your shelves in the coming days or already has: 2015 Wagner-Stempel "vom Porphyr"

The winemaker produced maybe the best vintage of his career and this Riesling will show you how great this vintage is. A Riesling trocken for 15 Euro on Dry Grand Cru/Grosses Gewächs level. Here is the wine-dealer:

http://www.rudiwiest.com/estates/wagner-stempelv/


Here the vintage report about 2015 by the winemaker Daniel Wagner in english:

http://www.wagner-stempel.de/en/content/news


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#38 Post by Martin Zwick » May 22nd, 2016, 11:58 pm

And as you are all talking about JJ Prüm, here is a 2015 Wehlener Sonnenuhr from Max Ferd. Richter you can buy right now for a song. In contrast you have to wait a few months before you see 2015 JJ Prüm.

http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... 1&t=126427
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#39 Post by Jürgen Steinke » May 23rd, 2016, 2:04 am

Many people are focusing on the well known names. But truth is that dozens of talented winemakers are producing superb wines in Germany these days. But ok - this is true for almost any wine growing country. If you are interested in saving money I suggest to be open minded and tasting as much wines of a certain area as possible. It won´t take long to find positive surprises.

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#40 Post by Jay Miller » May 23rd, 2016, 4:52 am

Jürgen Steinke wrote:Many people are focusing on the well known names. But truth is that dozens of talented winemakers are producing superb wines in Germany these days. But ok - this is true for almost any wine growing country. If you are interested in saving money I suggest to be open minded and tasting as much wines of a certain area as possible. It won´t take long to find positive surprises.
But of course you have to
a) have access to them
b) have a chance to taste so you know whether you like a given producer's style. Or particular bottling of a given producer. For example I was underwhelmed by Keller until I tried a Morstein GG which amazed me. I've given up on trusting reviewers for unfamiliar Germans vis a vis my palate. Too many misses. I'm hoping some local stores might have tastings once they start arriving, if not I'll probably be sticking with with producers I know I love and paying attention to VFTC and MFWR for what to buy within those producers.
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#41 Post by Russell Faulkner » May 23rd, 2016, 4:55 am

Excluding Muller, the spread of pricing is tighter in white German wines than more or less any other area.

I'm not really financially incentivised to try cheaper producers.

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#42 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 23rd, 2016, 5:03 am

Keller is not exactly cheap either.

Weil is getting up there as well.

It also seems to be common for GG bottlings from many producers to be $70 or $80 in the US, making them less price competitive with many Austrian Rieslings that can be found for $40-$60, and Trimbach CFE around $50-$60.
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#43 Post by Russell Faulkner » May 23rd, 2016, 5:04 am

True. But like normal I wasn't really thinking of the dry wines. :)

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#44 Post by Daniel McIntosh » May 23rd, 2016, 8:16 am

When are these supposed to hit the shelves here?

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#45 Post by Russell Faulkner » June 15th, 2016, 8:55 am

The big London tasting is tomorrow. Sorry to miss it, though I'm not convinced one gets a great steer now, much better come late September.

Anyway my order is in. I tried to keep it small. Honest I tried.

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#46 Post by John Morris » June 15th, 2016, 9:00 am

Ross Massey wrote:
Jay Miller wrote:Years ago they seemed very sulphury (sponti-y?) young but aged gloriously. Lately they've been much more enjoyable on release but like any other good wine shut down after a period of time and are not that enjoyable until they emerge on the other side.

So like so many other wines my philosophy is to drink them young or drink them old but not in between. And the Kabinetts also age beautifully.
I don't think it's sulfur. But that question is academic and will probably be argued for as long as people are talking about wine!
What's the debate? Traditionally they dosed with sulfur to halt the fermentation in sweet wines.
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#47 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » June 15th, 2016, 9:08 am

So I missed the Terry Theise tasting yesterday, as I am on a business trip. My wife went, and thought the wines were good, not great, and she is a very perceptive taster.
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Germany 2015 really that great

#48 Post by dbailey » June 15th, 2016, 9:57 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:The big London tasting is tomorrow. Sorry to miss it, though I'm not convinced one gets a great steer now, much better come late September.

Anyway my order is in. I tried to keep it small. Honest I tried.
Certainly true last year when the lovely urine on slate combo in June had almost completely disappeared by September!
Dan

Russell Faulkner
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Germany 2015 really that great

#49 Post by Russell Faulkner » June 15th, 2016, 10:03 am

True every year. But tasting just bottled wines isn't half as useful as knowing the producers wines across multiple vintages.

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Loren Sonkin
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Germany 2015 really that great

#50 Post by Loren Sonkin » June 15th, 2016, 10:21 am

Martin Zwick wrote:And as you are all talking about JJ Prüm, here is a 2015 Wehlener Sonnenuhr from Max Ferd. Richter you can buy right now for a song. In contrast you have to wait a few months before you see 2015 JJ Prüm.

http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... 1&t=126427
Doesn't seem to be available in the US yet.
With regards,

Loren Sonkin
Columnist at www.Intowine.com

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