How would you rank these producers from a Pinot Noir standpoint based on your personal preferences (whether that’s QPR, SVD standouts, ageability, Quality, AFWE, whatever)?
Rhys
Littorai
Copain
Williams-Selyem
Rivers Marie
Sojourn
Kutch
Ceritas
Chris, I am not sure what you are after here. You have over 100 views and no posts, which probably tells you something that others are feeling like me.
Why don’t you dive a bit more into what kind of discussion you want so some people can weigh in.
I’ll throw this at the wall and see if it sticks
Copain
Rhys
Ceritas
Littorai
Arnot-Roberts
Kutch
Sojourn
Williams-Selyem
no experience with Rivers Marie yet
The only producer on that list that I like (and I like them very, very much) is Littorai. The rest I couldn’t rank, because they’d fall below the line into the amorphous “do not like” category.
It’s a really odd list, since it excludes so many of the best (and oldest, with an aging track record) CA producers.
Thanks Frank, fair question and I admittedly typed the query quickly. I’m about to hit capacity on my storage and am looking to potentially pare back on some lists or otherwise go deeper leveraging another location.
I listed producers from which I have enjoyed, but haven’t had enough comparison opportunities to compare side by side to form my own independent preferences.
However, I have gained some directional alignment from my palate preferences in reading notes from others on this board in conjunction with my own tasting experiences. That said, I’m hoping to establish my own forced ranking, but am curious to see how mine meshes with others.
For instance, if memory serves, I have seen you give very favorable feedback on Jamie’s wines and other Copain bottlings (both some of my favorites). I would be very curious how you and others compare these producers (let’s say to Littorai and Williams Selyem) from a forced ranking standpoint - although recognize folks don’t like to necessarily say I prefer x over y. And yes, I completely acknowledge that the most relevant aspect of the discussion is “why”…
While I think all of these producers make wines of excellent quality, I would rank my personal favorites from this list as follows:
Littorai
Rhys
Kutch
Ceritas
Copain
WS
Rivers Marie
Sojourn
Can I discern any pattern, attribute, or quality that drives this? They have all been young and not particularly…
Rivers Marie
Ceritas
Rhys
Kutch
Sojourn
All great producers and I think it all comes down to personal preference. Although I’m sure some will state authoritatively who the obvious winner is…
Since I choose to not rank my children, I really can not rank the Cali Pinots that I continue to reorder. I enjoy them for different reasons (dirt), or the same reasons (make me happy; usually followed by “hmmmm” after I take a sip)…and this is a very limited sample since there are several Cali’s that I have NEVER sampled before…or those that I have sampled that are excellent but my wine dollars still need to be allocated…so in no particular order…
Rhys
Littorai
Copain
Ceritas
Cheers,
JP
Chris, if those are the wines you’re buying, I think you can sleep well at night. Not a bad producer on the list. Hard to force rank as they all bring different dimensions to their wines. Maybe just continue to buy a few of each to keep your Cali PN collection balanced?
For me, in no particular order:
Rhys
Arnot Roberts
Anthill Farms
Rivers Marie
Hibou
Ferren
Ceritas
Anthill
Marcassin
Rivers Marie
Rhys
Phillips Hill
Emeritus
Black Kite
All rank below Aubert, albeit you have to give Aubert at least five years before they dominate.
And then Peter Michael slips into second place – except for the occasional Auteur Shea ‘Back Block’ Reserve.
Scott speaks truth.
My take…
-Littorai
-Rhys
-Williams Selyem
-Kutch
-Rivers-Marie
Don’t drink Copain or Ceritas.
Not represented
-Kosta Browne
-Cirq
-Marcassin
Newer pinots that I have really enjoyed in the last 12 months…
-Patine (Mike Smith pinot that ROCKS!)
-AldenAlli
Add in Ancillary pinot, another winner by Mike Smith!!
Nothing against the producers you listed, Chris, most of whom I haven’t tried, but I really, really like Arcadian, but some bottle aging is important, IMO. (I’ve had, and enjoyed, Alesia, but I’m still holding my Rhys (itself) pinots, so can’t judge yet.)
Chris, You (or your family and friends) are the only one who should decide what you keep buying.
Personally, I’ve never really followed any PN producers for more than a few years. Styles change so much that it is hard to get a consist read on many producers.
These days I buy: Ojai, Rhys, and Marcassin, but I have some Kutch and ABC in the cellar as well.
Chris,
I own and like all of the producers in your list, but they can certainly show big differences. You mention you have had all these young - is your intent to only drink them young? They may taste/rank differently with 10 yrs under their cork. Most of the pinots in my cellar are very young but I had a 2008 WS just last night which I thought was reaching a really nice spot. Would I post that wine near the top of the list when it was only 1-2yrs in the cellar? Probably not.
I still don’t get how folks can exclusively buy wines with no track record of aging. How the hell do you know if any of these wines are going to be good wines in 5 or 10 years, other than the Littorai or the W-S? (FWIW, I’ve had some 10+ year old post-Burt W-S pinots, and they are no great shakes, unless you love oak like that bear f*cking loves cocaine. 2006 Rhys wines have a brett infection that would make a Belgian brewer dance. Old Copains, before the style switch, are completely cracked up. I’ve only had one (relatively) ‘older’ Rivers Marie pinot, but it certainly wasn’t blowing anyone’s socks off.)
There are many great pinot producers in CA that have proved their ability to make age-worthy wine: ABC, Calera, Mount Eden, Swan, Arcadian, etc. . . . Throwing in with the flavor of the month at the near-total exclusion of every producer with a track record seems mind-boggingly ill-advised. Especially when, to actually buy these wines, you need to take allocations in sizes that demand either raging alcoholism or some long-term aging.