Premier Cru chargeback information (ONLY)

Mods - I think it would be useful to start a thread solely for people to post practical information about Premier Cru chargebacks, what arguments are working with which credit card companies, whom to contact, etc. All general editorializing on the PC situation can and should stay in the other thread, but going through 143 pages (or even the most recent 20 pages) of general pontification to try to find hard information about refund requests is difficult.

I have a dispute pending with Amex, filed in late December, and will post here when I get concrete feedback (so far they’ve just acknowledged receipt).

The bankruptcy trustee, credit-card lenders, and any other parties might cite customer posts here in litigation and other matters.

Good idea Paul. I am recopying my post from the other forum from yesterday…

Progress?

I don’t want to count my chickens but I just got off the phone with my credit card company that agreed to take on my dispute and is giving me a provisional credit for the roughly $1,800 that I lost on (1) case paid for on 2/29/12. I had contacted them last month and they said they could do nothing beyond 60 days. I don’t think they really understood the circumstances at the time?

Either way, I got a guy today who was very nice and helpful and willing to listen. I know he even Googled PC to verift what I was talking about. My argument was that whatever time limit they want to hold me to, that clock should start either when goods are received and/or when is it clear goods will NOT be delivered…not the original charge date. He agreed. He also was very interested in me faxing documents that show that these were futures (“pre-arrival”) purchases.

Not sure if the card issuer that I am dealing with here is a little more customer service oriented? This is an Amex issued by Merrill Lynch in conjunction with my investment account.

My only advice is to keep after your credit card company, regardless of who they are. The 60 days really makes no sense. If you paid a hotel deposit 90 days out and showed up and had an issue, I am sure they would back your dispute.

Good luck everyone!

How so?

Google.

I took the question to be how would any of them use a factual post here, such as the one made above, to defeat the claim?

My post from the other thread:

I spent a half hour on the phone [1-12-16] with a gentleman with Chase. My formal letter, with supporting documentation, will be sent tomorrow to:

Chase Disputes
P.O. Box 15299
Wilmington, DE 19850-5299

My total amount disputed is $4,682.01, with eleven open orders. The oldest open/disputed order is June 22, 2013 and the most recent August 15, 2014. The bulk are between December 2013 and April 2014. Of course, I have a number of PC orders in that same time frame that PC fully satisfied by delivering the wines ordered.

I will let everyone know what Chase does with my dispute. I want to thank everyone in this thread who has tried to supply helpful information on how to proceed with the credit card company(ies). [cheers.gif]

A follow-up post:

Not sure I would label them “magic words,” but I think the following points are really important:

(1) based upon your history of orders with Premier Cru you had no reason to dispute any “open” order charges prior to PC going down the toilet (and, technically, prior to the Chapter 7 filing. For instance, and as I’ve posted up-thread, my November 8, 2015 order of the 2011 Pegau was delivered just prior to the Chapter 7 filing. I also pointed out to my CC company that an order delivered in October 2015 was from October 2013. I included not only copies of all “open” orders I now am disputing in whole or part (where some wines in the order had been delivered), but also copies of “closed” orders going back to 2003, to show that history of ordering and deliveries by Premier Cru;

(2) I referred throughout my dispute letter to “orders” and their dollar amount, and explained the concepts of “pre-arrival” orders as being “open” orders until all wines are in fact delivered, and included a copy of Premier Cru’s webpage describing “pre-arrival” orders;

(3) I included a copy of the first four pages of the Chapter 7 filing, along with a copy of the CNBC news article discussing the bankruptcy.

Hope this helps!!

And another follow-up post:

Matthew, I called the number Joe had listed in post #4894 for Chase’s dispute department, 888 489-8452. Talked with a gentleman named Raymond (I believe). It took a little warming up for Raymond to start seeming more positive than negative, and he stepped away from the phone for a few minutes (I presume to talk with a co-worker and/or supervisor), but he then walked me through what I needed to put in the letter to them. Btw, I had each and every Premier Cru “open” pre-arrival order in front of me (had the exact amounts disputed, including those orders where Premier Cru had sent some, but not all, of the bottles paid for), and I also had gone back through my credit card statements to identify each and every “charge” by date and amount that corresponded with the “open” orders. Finding those charges took some time, and spread throughout my remaining “open” order time frame are any number of now “closed” orders that Premier Cru satisfied. Good luck, Matt!!! [cheers.gif]

Setting aside the question of how to authenticate a posting on a bulletin board (request for admission, deposition of the poster, IP logs, etc.) anything you say could be used to impeach you, as an admission by a party opponent, as an admission against interest, or as one of the exceptions to the hearsay rule (most likely as a present sense impression). There is no joint prosecution agreement among those gathered here, nor would any privilege apply.

Mike, besides the fact that your comment applies to every post anyone has ever made on a bulletin board, why suggest it here, in this thread? Perhaps a better, more appropriate post would have been simply to remind posters here that they should make certain they do not misrepresent any fact to their credit card company. Truth goes a long ways in these sort of circumstances. Admission by a party opponent? My order history with Premier Cru is a matter of record. Impeachment? Again, my order history is a matter of record, and those records likely are now in bankruptcy and regardless, they are discoverable. Finally, I think many of us are coming here to share with others, similarly out sums of money due to Premier Cru closing their doors for good January 8, 2016, what we have tried to do to educate our credit card companies as to why we not only are now seeking to dispute charges made months or years ago, but also why that only makes sense given Premier Cru’s “pre-arrival” ordering model. Or, perhaps stated differently, why we would not have disputed an October 2013 charge associated with a pre-arrival order at some other artificial or arbitrary date, like December 2013, or January 2014, or April 1, 2015, and so on. Goodness.

Yeah, I meant in what context would those parties use a post here, not how would they find it.

In one news story, a Florida man admitted that he planned to flip his PC “deals”. To the
degree that such resale would be unlicensed and violate state alcohol regulations, the
credit-card lender could reject his refund claims, by saying that he was not authorized
to use the card to finance illegal transactions. If I recall correctly, a couple of posters
here intimated the same intent.

I have received “pending credit” for about $4000 in PC orders, sand have faxed Bank of America all supporting documentation, including evasive emails and sales orders. The woman I spoke to on the phone was sympathetic and was able to process preliminary claims for orders going more than a year back under the premise that, when I was finally told over the phone that my orders were basically pie in the sky but that the Madeira was coming in two weeks, I switched my order to Madeira and that started the clock. When they stopped returning phone calls that really started the clock.

I don’t know if that “pending credit” can be withdrawn or what the timeframe is for resolving the dispute. Will update when I have an update.

That’s interesting, Noah, as I haven’t seen any “pending credit” on my BoA account even though they have opened up separate claims for each of my transactions. When I called the claims department to inquire about this, they were very confused about what they were seeing on their end and couldn’t explain why no pending credit had been posted. They finally determined that it had been elevated to someone above their level in the “back office”. They, of course, had already left for the day so I’ll try again on Monday and update with anything new.

Hoping that everyone can claw back some cash. I still remain worried that my “pending credit” could be removed if it’s determined that my claim doesn’t meet whatever criteria they’ve established. Will try not to spend it on wine yet… :slight_smile:

chase just credited me back $2900, for charges going back 1 year. was a very pleasant experience.
anyone have success with amex? I have $2700 charges on an amex card that i have recently cancelled.

For the 3 small orders I placed using Amex in late August / early September I was able to use their online dispute form.

Follow this link and then login to your account. It took me 3-4 minutes per order to lay out my case.

https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/benefits/detail/dispute-resolution/premier-gold


[Amex credited each one … with the caveats that the vendor has until March 23rd to challenge the dispute; each will be adjusted for interest and fees]

I had a couple of extended conversations with an Amex rep, who took down all of my information for a number of small orders going back to 2011 – almost all of them 1-3 bottles. I told him the truth, of course, and explained the “pre-arrival” and “futures” phenomenon. I have now received provisional credit for ~79% of what I was owed. They denied one fairly recent (last Feb) purchase for reasons I don’t really understand – said they couldn’t find it in their records – so I uploaded the original receipt, which showed that my Amex card had been charged, a copy of the purchase order from my PC on line account, and the first page of the BK petition. They asked for info about a second order which I uploaded. I haven’t heard back re: either of those items.

As for the balance, I really can’t tell what we are waiting for; the level of detail provided by Amex on their website on pending disputes is non-existent (it doesn’t even list the date of the purchase, so it is hard to match items up). If I get further clarity I will post.

I understand that for Amex, this is really an insurance deal; they realize they are sometimes going to be left holding the bag. They have been nothing but helpful, and their conduct has had its intended result: it made me a happy – and continuing – customer.

That’s good to know, Neal; this thread is helpful. I assume they all have it set up as an insurance deal? If BofA continues to stonewall/make me jump through unnecessary hoops, I will let them know I’m moving everything to AmEx if they can’t come through.