75 ml served by Coravin at 67 Pall Mall in London, but I was the first to try the bottle so it was definitely 100% fresh. I was very excited for this, but am yet to meet a Piedmont over age 40 that floats my boat. I think it’s me, not the wine–my companion found this impressive and “haunting.”
1964 Giacomo Conterno Barolo Riserva Monfortino Speciale- Italy, Piedmont, Langhe, Barolo (1/2/2016)
Cloudy ruby color. Nose of balsamic vinegar and orange peel, with a burnt note. 10 minutes of air bring out tar, menthol, and paprika. No perceptible fruit aromas remaining. On the palate it mainly registers as bitter, particularly at the aftertaste. Very impressive length and density, and the complex nose shows different sides with every sniff. But I think I can only appreciate wines at this stage of their evolution intellectually. I’m learning to drink my Nebbiolo younger.
My concerns with using a coravin on old Nebbiolo would be that it would stir up the sediment, which is terribly bitter. Seems consistent with your tasting note, too.
Dan, George is absolutely correct. The Coravin is categorically USELESS for old Nebbiolo, and probably all old wines that throw considerable fine sediment. (Its inventors seemed to know a lot about medical technology, less about physics (see exploding wine bottles) and next to nothing about wine.) It was irresponsible of 67 Pall Mall to serve that wine using a Coravin, and if it was rhe bright idea of a sommelier, he or she needs to find another line of work.
While I would never have bought the wine with a Coravin anywhere near it, in your shoes I would ask for my money back. The cloudiness and bitterness are both tell-tale signs that the wine was abused by the Coravin, and likely not stood upright long in advance of serving to allow the sediment to settle out of the wine. Regardless of cause, the wine was not served properly. To add to your perfect storm on this occasion, 1964 was one of the toughest, most ageworthy Barolo vintages EVER, and many of its wines, the Monfortino in particular, need DAYS rather than hours in a decanter to reveal their full beauty. (This is a wine that reviewers undervalued because they did not know how to prepare and serve the wine properly.) Had this wine been opened, decanted off of its dregs and allowed to sit in the decanter until it was ready to drink, probably a minimum of 24 hours (the last bottle of that wine that I drank last year took a full 36 hours, and an earlier bottle 72 hours!), you likely would have had a clear, sweet, highly aromatic wine that may well have been your Barolo experience of a lifetime…and haunting indeed. It is not that you cannot appreciate old Nebbiolo, especially an exceptional bottle like the 1964 Monfortino. Anyone can, regardless of wine preferences. It is simply a matter of knowing how to treat the wine, and ignorance in that regard is rampant…
I don’t understand why the Coravin would be the problem here. You are entirely correct that the bottle was stored on its side–I saw it–and therefore that the glass probably had a bunch of gunk in it. But that would have been true whether it was Coravined or opened. Similarly, if it had been stored upright, you would just gently tip the bottle diagonally when pouring via Coravin to keep the sediment at the bottom, exactly as you would do if you had pulled the cork. What does the Coravin have to do with it?
This seems like a worthy experiment. I may go back and ask them to pour out a glass for me a day ahead of time to let the sediment settle and allow it to breathe.
A bottle like this is so special. It should be treated as such. That means it needs to be stored upright for weeks, then decanted very carefully to remove all sediment. It should then breathe for at least a few hours. A Coravin doesn’t allow any of that.
I am curious how much they charged for a glass and how big that glass was?
You do understand how decanting a wine off its sediment works, correct? If that had been done properly, you absolutely would not have had that sediment in your glass. I don’t know how else to explain what was wrong with using the Coravin on this bottle when Bill said it so well (and Ken repeated it so succinctly). It’s very sad that they are ruining such a legendary wine by serving it this way. I would LOVE to someday get to taste a properly decanted 1964 Monfortino.
It would be one thing if the sediment in old Nebbiolo clumped into sheets as it does in many other wine types, so that you could gently take a bottle resting on its side from its spot and successfully decant it, but that is not the case. Nebbiolo sediment is ultra-fine, particularly bitter and unpleasant, and does not want to come out of suspension easily. It is for that reason that we are telling you that old Nebbiolo should stand for weeks or months. (Some will tell you, correctly, that you can achieve the same result if you tilt the wine at a 45-degree angle in a cradle, but that strikes me as an unnecessary pain in the ass when you are decanting the wine. The risk of corks drying out in a cellar with proper humidity is negligible.) So, in your case, the bottle was not ready to drink to begin with and the wine is being withdrawn at the same time that it is being blasted and stirred with injected inert gas. Absolutely terrible for the wine, your glass and all subsequent glasses. On top of that, the wine needs to breathe for an extended period of time. I can say from recent experience that a few hours will not do it, unless you are aerating in a large kitchen sink, and probably not even then. (Understand that my discussion of the need for radically extended aeration in this case is particular to the wine in question, which has to fight both the size and power of the 1964 vintage AND being a Monfortino in its effort to achieve drinkability…)
The problem with using a Coravin on an older bottle, especially Nebbiolo, is that there is no way to mediate the release of argon into the bottle. There is no gradation of pressure, just a blast of argon, which will immediately stir up any and all sediment, no matter how long it’s been resting (and/or standing).
Also, older corks don’t reseal as well, and have a tendency to leak, or be pushed out from the pressure.
Full disclosure: I do use a Coravin very sparingly (if you came in at 11:30pm on a Saturday night and really wanted one glass of something young and pricey that we don’t sell a lot of, i.e. 2012 Aubert Lauren, I’d probably rather Coravin you a glass than run the risk of not being able to sell another in the remaining 1/2 hour we’re open, but even then it’d be kinda of a tough decision) but never, ever on a bottle over 10yrs old.
That seems thoughtful policy to me. My fear of stirring up sediment in a 2012 Aubert Chardonnay is minimal. Your point is well-taken about old corks in general as well. Absent the use of a Durand, and sometimes even then, extracting a cork from a 30-50-year-old bottle of Barolo in one piece requires divine intervention…
Stored upright for days. You could do that and subsequently access the bottle via Coravin, but they didn’t. They just picked it up off its side and inserted the Coravin needle.
Decanted very carefully to remove all sediment–Definitely can’t do this with a Coravin. Is the decanting for sediment still really important if the bottle has been stored upright for a long time and you are getting the first pour? Won’t it all have fallen to the bottom?
Breathe for at least a few hours–I don’t see any problem here. You can order a glass ahead of time, and let it sit for as long as you want before drinking.
I believe it was £889 or maybe £884 for the whole bottle, divisible into as many 25-ml servings as you want. I bought three (a 75 ml glass or 1/10 of the bottle) for just under £90, which is $135 at the current exchange rate.
All–Good point about the shot of argon stirring up the wine and its sediment. I wonder how big an effect that really has.
To hopefully add something to what is accurately been said by others before me. This is not an appropriate way to treat an older Nebbiolo, and is almost certainly why is was cloudy and bitter.
Bill’s thoughts on 1964, upright treatment for a long time pre opening, and decanting of sediment and lots of air are well said and correct.
Re: the sediment. It is far too fine to settle and stay. How I wish it were otherwise. Shine a light across the bottom of a 40+ year old Nebbiolo that has been upright for weeks and you will see a fine dust storm raise and stay suspended with a mild side tilt.
I had the regular 64 Conterno Barolo a couple years back and it needed the better part of a day to open up
The other and main problem I have with older wines that throw sediment and the Coravin mirrors George’s and David’: You can’t pour (or at least I have yet to figure out how) a Coravin keeping the bottle upright, it needs to be at a low enough angle to let the wine get out from the bottom of the needle. In the best of situations, maybe the first glass could be poured using a Coravin at a 45 degree angle, likely flatter. Once the bottle is layed on its side that much, and especially after the argon, the fine sediment is in suspension, and not going to leave for days or weeks. The blast of argon gas throws up a snowstorm of sediment especially in Nebbiolo. The end comes quickly if a second small blast of argon is needed to finish out the first pour. After the first glass, there is no chance of achieving anything remotely close to upright and the snowstorm will be there for days/ weeks even without a new shot of argon.
That could had been a monumental bottle of Barolo (it might not have been even with perfect handling), but it had no chance with that handling. Old nebbiolo may not be your thing, and that’s cool, but I would not give up on old Nebbiolo based on that showing.
I am perplexed at the point of a wine that needs to be decanted and opened for 36+hrs to show its stuff. I’ve never had a red that didn’t show some ill effects from acetobacter after 24hrs under normal atmosphere. Do you guys sparge the container you double-decant into with inert gas or are you like “heck with it, a little vinegar adds character?”
Maybe we should let the wine settle upside down, then freeze the neck, trapping cork plus sediment a la champagne disgorgement before removing the neck with a sabre.
You have not have enough old, great-vintage, top-quality Nebbiolo-based wines, I suspect. The “point” is that the wines are stunning, directly comparable and quite similar to the best old grand cru Burgundies (which also often need decanting and extended air time). In truth, there are many wines out there that show better on the second, and occasionally on the third, day, but too few people with the knowledge and intestinal fortitude to give the wines what they need. Some wines will seem to be fading after a number of hours, then spring back to life as the aeration continues. You simply cover the decanter and place it in a cool environment during the aeration. Back into a cellar works perfectly. The point is not that all Nebbiolo needs 36 hours, which is an extreme case, but not uncommon for the toughest 1964 wines. Some fully mature bottles may need only double-decanting and recorking until serving time. Others may need 3, 6 or 12 hours. 12 maximum for aged Nebbioli that one would expect to be safely within their drinking windows. There is never any vinegar involved unless the wine was already on its way down that path, which is rare with well-stored bottles from good producers and strong vintages…
Dan, the blast of argon is 100% fatal. That big an effect. Full stop. Inflicted on a bottle stored on its side to begin with. The wine should be completely clear and sweet. Yours was cloudy and bitter because the restaurant Coravined a wine that needed to be stood up for weeks, opened, decanted off of its dregs and given all the air time that it needed. If a doctor, lawyer or accountant did to a client what was done to that poor bottle of Monfortino, there would be a malpractice claim…
Wow, I would NEVER in a million years treat a good mature burgundy that way if I could avoid it, and I’ve tried it literally hundreds of times, as I rarely finish a burg on the first day when drinking alone. The vinegar ruins the wine by the second day. I think you must be AA insensitive?
Coravin on older bottles = not a good idea IMHO.
It puts so much pressure on the wine in order to allow flow out of the top that it always disturbs the sediment without even trying.
No, I am just twice your age and have had more experience that you have with great old bottles! (But seriously, get off my lawn.) It has everything to do with the wines involved. I am not AA insensitive, just less risk averse and more open to experimentation than most wine buffs, who seem to emerge from the womb with strong and often insupportable theories about wine. The notion that all old Burgundies are fragile and cannot withstand much air is another of wine’s many myths and old husbands’ tales. Everything depends upon the nature of the individual bottle, and generalization is futile. More Burgundies have gone down the drain prematurely due to the presumption that they were in a “dumb” phase than have suffered that fate for being vinegar on the come, I suspect. Ask a few Burgundy producers if they are in the perpetual pop and pour mode with their mature bottles, and I think that you will find not…
Your point is well-taken about old corks in general as well. Absent the use of a Durand, and sometimes even then, extracting a cork from a 30-50-year-old bottle of Barolo in one piece requires divine intervention…![[berserker.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/8600bbd4810d342b8fbd4ffb62b4f0026275fd37.gif "berserker"){kind=small}
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