The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
Alicia C.
Posts: 629
Joined: September 3rd, 2013, 12:54 pm
Location: Cambridge, Mass. (ex-D.C.-er)

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#1 Post by Alicia C. » May 28th, 2015, 9:43 am

Just posting to share -- The New York Times Magazine just published a big story on IPOB (In Pursuit of Balance).

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/magaz ... rapes.html

Discuss as you please...
last name starts with a CY and ends with PRESS
I'm @itswinebyme on Twitter and Tumblr

User avatar
Joe S.
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 957
Joined: January 18th, 2013, 8:31 pm
Location: DFW Metroplex

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#2 Post by Joe S. » May 28th, 2015, 10:19 am

Good read..... [cheers.gif]
-- J. 'eS-eye-dee-dee-ay-eL-eL-
BornToRhone (CT)

User avatar
ericleehall
Posts: 1043
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 12:18 pm
Location: Healdsburg, CA

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#3 Post by ericleehall » May 28th, 2015, 10:30 am

I have two words: Great Marketing
All for the Love of Pinot!
www.roadhousewinery.com

Michael Klein
Posts: 508
Joined: March 24th, 2015, 10:01 am

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#4 Post by Michael Klein » May 28th, 2015, 10:46 am

getting my popcorn ready. this thread should take off!

User avatar
alan weinberg
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 13218
Joined: April 25th, 2009, 1:23 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#5 Post by alan weinberg » May 28th, 2015, 10:49 am

"They are what they are." Great line--modifying "it is what it is."

User avatar
Henry Kiichli
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4682
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 9:04 am
Location: Oldenburg, Germany

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#6 Post by Henry Kiichli » May 28th, 2015, 11:20 am

Thanks very much for the link. Good read.
"Police say Henry smelled of alcohol and acknowledged drinking a six-pack of Hamm’s beer with the hogs"

User avatar
Scott G r u n e r
Posts: 3915
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 9:03 pm
Location: Seattleish

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#7 Post by Scott G r u n e r » May 28th, 2015, 11:24 am

For those of us that have never actuallly tasted them- how are the wines of Sandhi and Domaine de la Côte and Mathiason? I have had SeaSmoke, Shafer, etc, and understand the style point the article makes.
//Cynic

User avatar
Brent C l a y t o n
Posts: 5558
Joined: May 6th, 2009, 9:21 am
Location: Elmhurst, NY
Contact:

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#8 Post by Brent C l a y t o n » May 28th, 2015, 11:32 am

Scott,

The wines are as described, lighter in body, a more elegant, Burgundian style. I would say even lighter than most of what is typically coming out of the SRH right now. The Chardonnays in particular are much less opulent. However, I don't find them to be Burgundian in the sense that they need age or time to develop, though Raj might see it differently. I think a standard 2-5 year window to drink after release seems right from what I've tasted so far.

It was a nice read, perhaps a puff piece for IPOB, but nothing to stir up the mob over in terms of how the two sides were painted.
‘Purveyor of Plonk’
Threadsinker
ITB Sales
IG@bigdaddyb420wine

User avatar
Scott G r u n e r
Posts: 3915
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 9:03 pm
Location: Seattleish

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#9 Post by Scott G r u n e r » May 28th, 2015, 11:38 am

Thanks Brent. I like that style of wine for the most part- but here is the big disconnect I see...

There was a quote about these wines being the style of wine you can expect in a carafe in on a bistro table in france, etc. Great. Big fan of that light, quaffable style. But guess what- The price point on those is 10-20 per bottle- NOT $45-90.
//Cynic

User avatar
Richard T r i m p i
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 15660
Joined: September 11th, 2009, 1:29 pm
Location: Within walking distance of William Penn's Walking Purchase

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#10 Post by Richard T r i m p i » May 28th, 2015, 11:47 am

Brent C l a y t o n wrote:It was a nice read, perhaps a puff piece for IPOB, but nothing to stir up the mob over in terms of how the two sides were painted.
+1

RT

User avatar
R. Gaston
Posts: 704
Joined: August 1st, 2009, 10:36 pm
Location: Ojai

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#11 Post by R. Gaston » May 28th, 2015, 12:00 pm

ericleehall wrote:I have two words: Great Marketing
+1
Ryan

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21472
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#12 Post by Alan Rath » May 28th, 2015, 12:04 pm

Scott G r u n e r wrote:For those of us that have never actuallly tasted them- how are the wines of Sandhi and Domaine de la Côte and Mathiason? I have had SeaSmoke, Shafer, etc, and understand the style point the article makes.
I've only had the Sandhi and Cote wines a few times, I'd call the Sandhi wines slightly more "main stream", and the Cote wines more delicate, though both fit the IPOB label. Neither are austere. Honestly, I don't find either of them particularly revelatory, but they are nice wines.

The Matthiasson wines I find unique and delicious, particularly the non-Chardonnay whites, and the Cab Franc.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Bruce Leiser_owitz
Posts: 12649
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 12:54 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#13 Post by Bruce Leiser_owitz » May 28th, 2015, 1:07 pm

Scott G r u n e r wrote:Thanks Brent. I like that style of wine for the most part- but here is the big disconnect I see...

There was a quote about these wines being the style of wine you can expect in a carafe in on a bistro table in france, etc. Great. Big fan of that light, quaffable style. But guess what- The price point on those is 10-20 per bottle- NOT $45-90.
I'm 99 points on that.

I think this article is "news" to anyone who hasn't been following the wine market/wine critics for the past several years. For the rest of us, I think Gen. Franco is still dead.

Bruce
"Bruce you are correct."--Andrew Kaufman, 3/24/13.

User avatar
Scott Brunson
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 10481
Joined: November 15th, 2011, 2:55 am
Location: in between coastal SC and south FL

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#14 Post by Scott Brunson » May 28th, 2015, 1:51 pm

Disclaimer--I love Napa Cab and buy a good bit every year. Otherwise I buy mostly Burgundy, Loire and lean Syrah.
BUT,
“The jihadist movements of non­sulphured wines, green, underripe wines, low alcohol, insipid stuff promoted by the anti-­pleasure police & neo-­anti-­alcohol proponents has run its course as another extreme and useless movement few care about.” is the quote of the year. What a tool!
(btw, I know it isn't a new quote but still QOTY for me)
Tous les chemins mènent à la Bourgogne!
On CT, I'm S1

User avatar
Alicia C.
Posts: 629
Joined: September 3rd, 2013, 12:54 pm
Location: Cambridge, Mass. (ex-D.C.-er)

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#15 Post by Alicia C. » May 28th, 2015, 1:59 pm

Scott Brunson wrote:Disclaimer--I love Napa Cab and buy a good bit every year. Otherwise I buy mostly Burgundy, Loire and lean Syrah.
BUT,
“The jihadist movements of non­sulphured wines, green, underripe wines, low alcohol, insipid stuff promoted by the anti-­pleasure police & neo-­anti-­alcohol proponents has run its course as another extreme and useless movement few care about.” is the quote of the year. What a tool!
(btw, I know it isn't a new quote but still QOTY for me)
This was my favorite quote of the entire piece!
last name starts with a CY and ends with PRESS
I'm @itswinebyme on Twitter and Tumblr

User avatar
Peter Kleban
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 13765
Joined: February 14th, 2010, 8:21 pm
Location: Vacationland (AKA Maine, USA)

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#16 Post by Peter Kleban » May 28th, 2015, 2:44 pm

Alicia C. wrote:
Scott Brunson wrote:Disclaimer--I love Napa Cab and buy a good bit every year. Otherwise I buy mostly Burgundy, Loire and lean Syrah.
BUT,
“The jihadist movements of non­sulphured wines, green, underripe wines, low alcohol, insipid stuff promoted by the anti-­pleasure police & neo-­anti-­alcohol proponents has run its course as another extreme and useless movement few care about.” is the quote of the year. What a tool!
(btw, I know it isn't a new quote but still QOTY for me)
This was my favorite quote of the entire piece!
+1. RMP outdoing himself.
Bob Wood:
"Peter..your well-reasoned words were a waste of time."
WsOTY:
Bêcheur Chard Anderson Vy '18
Felettig Morey St. Denis VV '14
Felletig Chamb-Mus VV '14
Pépière Muscadet Briords '09
Volpaia Chianti Class '18
Lignier Morey St Denis 1er Ormes '14
Collestefano Verdicchio di M '19
Pépière Muscadet Briords '19
Bêcheur PN '14
Virage '07

User avatar
Bruce Leiser_owitz
Posts: 12649
Joined: June 16th, 2009, 12:54 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#17 Post by Bruce Leiser_owitz » May 28th, 2015, 3:56 pm

Peter Kleban wrote:
Alicia C. wrote:
Scott Brunson wrote:Disclaimer--I love Napa Cab and buy a good bit every year. Otherwise I buy mostly Burgundy, Loire and lean Syrah.
BUT,
“The jihadist movements of non­sulphured wines, green, underripe wines, low alcohol, insipid stuff promoted by the anti-­pleasure police & neo-­anti-­alcohol proponents has run its course as another extreme and useless movement few care about.” is the quote of the year. What a tool!
(btw, I know it isn't a new quote but still QOTY for me)
This was my favorite quote of the entire piece!
+1. RMP outdoing himself.
It's only more bombastic than the "anti-flavor wine elite." It all comes down to the same position--if you're not making wine that I can give at least X points to, then you're wrong.

Bruce
"Bruce you are correct."--Andrew Kaufman, 3/24/13.

Ian Dorin
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4723
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 12:39 pm
Location: Springfield, NJ

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#18 Post by Ian Dorin » May 28th, 2015, 4:07 pm

Scott G r u n e r wrote:For those of us that have never actuallly tasted them- how are the wines of Sandhi and Domaine de la Côte and Mathiason? I have had SeaSmoke, Shafer, etc, and understand the style point the article makes.
Interestingly, we did a Raj Parr dinner last night, and had Evening Land, Sandhi and Domaine de la Cote. I would argue that Parker would enjoy the Sandhi wines, simply b/c they are well made, with great varietal character, and plenty of phenolics and flavor. The wines are balanced (used in the right terms), and worth every cent. I also think he would enjoy the Domaine de la Cote, which had darker fruit, and a little more soul than the Sandhi wines. The difference between the 2 projects is purchased fruit (Sandhi) vs. estate (Cote), and I thought the Cote just had more fit and finish.

Interesting absence from the article is Matthiasson's day job as vineyard manager at Dalla Valle....oh wait...you aren't supposed to know that....


BTW, Jeb Dunnuck said he spent 2+ hours with the author, and only had one line. What a waste of time!
ITB

“I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted.” -WC Fields

Zachy's

Nate Simon
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2753
Joined: September 17th, 2009, 8:41 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#19 Post by Nate Simon » May 28th, 2015, 4:14 pm

While the article may come as news to some, it's nothing new to anyone who frequents this board. Like most ideological sects, the Parrtisans will forever cleave to their fantasy-world notions, chasing 12% ABV rainbows ad infinitum. No need to beat this horse much further.

User avatar
T. Riley
Posts: 86
Joined: December 9th, 2013, 2:46 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#20 Post by T. Riley » May 28th, 2015, 4:17 pm

Peter Kleban wrote:
+1. RMP outdoing himself.
It could almost be a parody quote as if someone was mocking his recent writings by putting all of his usual talking points into one jab.
T ¡ M

ITB

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21472
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#21 Post by Alan Rath » May 28th, 2015, 4:44 pm

Nate Simon wrote:While the article may come as news to some, it's nothing new to anyone who frequents this board. Like most ideological sects, the Parrtisans will forever cleave to their fantasy-world notions, chasing 12% ABV rainbows ad infinitum. No need to beat this horse much further.
As much as I hate internet spats, what have you been smoking? There is nothing "idealogical" about those of us who favor wines made more on the IPOB end of the spectrum (and, frankly, most of the IPOB wines are still fairly mainstream, relative to many Old World wines that some of us prefer even more). This is about having alternatives - a small number of alternatives - to the vast majority of heavier, riper, lusher wines that is most of what California produces in the "fine wine" category.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

TomHill
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 9778
Joined: July 28th, 2009, 9:21 am
Location: LosAlamos, NM

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#22 Post by TomHill » May 28th, 2015, 4:51 pm

Ian Dorin wrote:
Interesting absence from the article is Matthiasson's day job as vineyard manager at Dalla Valle....oh wait...you aren't supposed to know that....
I think Steve is vnyd manager at quite a few other vnyds...both in Napa and in Sonoma. He's regarded (by those I know) as one of the
best in the business.

BTW, Jeb Dunnuck said he spent 2+ hours with the author, and only had one line. What a waste of time!
Could be that Jeb didn't have anything particularly profound to say that merited inclusion in the article...other than further defense
of Parker's palate. I have no idea, though.
Tom

mike pobega
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 11073
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 3:26 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#23 Post by mike pobega » May 28th, 2015, 5:00 pm

I own some have have enjoyed the Domaine de la Côte full lineup. I am a fan more-so than the Sandhi.
My jury is still out how I feel about IPOB. I think I get it. Imagine, me getting it?
Like Alan above I really don't see any problem with the whole movement. Actually when I went to IPOB NYC a few months ago there was a few wineries there that had high cranking ripeness that caught me a bit off-guard, so I guess membership is just about paying the fee. I also am no fan of anyone that takes the low road and claims 'mine is better than yours' no matter what camp they come from. There seems to ba a big dose of that with this group. Parker bashing at any level is so......2005.

James Sanders
Posts: 644
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 12:35 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#24 Post by James Sanders » May 28th, 2015, 5:30 pm

This one made me laugh out loud:
He told of flying home from Bordeaux after tasting the 1982 vintage, which he would praise as the best he had encountered, knowing that he had information the world needed to hear. He was anguished. “Here I am, possessed of all this knowledge,” he recalled thinking. “What if the plane crashes?”

The wines were equally immodest, if such a thing were possible.

User avatar
NoahR
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2421
Joined: December 1st, 2013, 1:07 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#25 Post by NoahR » May 28th, 2015, 5:35 pm

I am a huge fan of lean, balanced, even geeky wines, have basically zero tolerance for high octane wines, and co wider myself a card-carrying member of the AFWE. That being said. this article was a big, hagiographic turd.

Almost shameful to have such a one-sided and simplistic take on a complex and nuanced subject published in the Grey Lady. Total puff piece.
Noah Raizman
Washington, DC

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21472
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#26 Post by Alan Rath » May 28th, 2015, 5:52 pm

James Sanders wrote:This one made me laugh out loud:
He told of flying home from Bordeaux after tasting the 1982 vintage, which he would praise as the best he had encountered, knowing that he had information the world needed to hear. He was anguished. “Here I am, possessed of all this knowledge,” he recalled thinking. “What if the plane crashes?”
If only... [berserker.gif]
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Peter Petersen
Posts: 3683
Joined: September 26th, 2009, 3:08 pm
Location: LA Adjecent

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#27 Post by Peter Petersen » May 28th, 2015, 7:05 pm

Still haven't tried Sandhi, but I know that I should.

User avatar
KatrinaBI
Posts: 2139
Joined: May 23rd, 2012, 10:43 am

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#28 Post by KatrinaBI » May 28th, 2015, 7:29 pm

NoahR wrote:I am a huge fan of lean, balanced, even geeky wines, have basically zero tolerance for high octane wines, and co wider myself a card-carrying member of the AFWE. That being said. this article was a big, hagiographic turd.

Almost shameful to have such a one-sided and simplistic take on a complex and nuanced subject published in the Grey Lady. Total puff piece.
Yes couldn't agree more. Reduces the issue to a face off between the cool trendy Raj (perched in his Santa Barbara home, listening to Jazz and surrounded by "rarefied European wines" (six , no less) declaiming "we don't make these (wines) in a any style at all." (WTF "no style" is a style). Against that you have Parker characterized as the deposed king limping around on his two crutches, sold out to the Singaporese, still defined by bombastic quotes. Lazy, melodramatic reductionism.

And surely there could have been mention of the myriad other winemakers who have been working in the IPOB style for longer than Parr and Matthiasson. Much as I like Matthiasson's wines (have only tried Parr's gamay project with Arnot Roberts, which I dislike), it's lazy to trot his stuff out all the time when there are so many other interesting and compelling winemakers in this style who equally deserve press.

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 21472
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#29 Post by Alan Rath » May 28th, 2015, 8:18 pm

KatrinaBI wrote:Yes couldn't agree more. Reduces the issue to a face off between the cool trendy Raj (perched in his Santa Barbara home, listening to Jazz and surrounded by "rarefied European wines" (six , no less) declaiming "we don't make these (wines) in a any style at all." (WTF "no style" is a style). Against that you have Parker characterized as the deposed king limping around on his two crutches, sold out to the Singaporese, still defined by bombastic quotes. Lazy, melodramatic reductionism.
Though to some of us it seems to capture the crystalline essence of the differences between the two. The picture and description of Parker is so vivid and real, that part rings true to this reader, who witnessed all too many of his diatribes on his own board over the years. The apparent caricature is, sadly, all too accurate.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
KatrinaBI
Posts: 2139
Joined: May 23rd, 2012, 10:43 am

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#30 Post by KatrinaBI » May 28th, 2015, 8:50 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
KatrinaBI wrote:Yes couldn't agree more. Reduces the issue to a face off between the cool trendy Raj (perched in his Santa Barbara home, listening to Jazz and surrounded by "rarefied European wines" (six , no less) declaiming "we don't make these (wines) in a any style at all." (WTF "no style" is a style). Against that you have Parker characterized as the deposed king limping around on his two crutches, sold out to the Singaporese, still defined by bombastic quotes. Lazy, melodramatic reductionism.
Though to some of us it seems to capture the crystalline essence of the differences between the two. The picture and description of Parker is so vivid and real, that part rings true to this reader, who witnessed all too many of his diatribes on his own board over the years. The apparent caricature is, sadly, all too accurate.
My point was that leaning on the caricature (whether accurate or no) precludes the telling of much more interesting and nuanced story about the emergence of a new wine "movement" (or whatever you want to call it.)

Stewart Johnson
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 836
Joined: December 12th, 2009, 6:37 pm
Location: Marin, CA

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#31 Post by Stewart Johnson » May 28th, 2015, 10:49 pm

Scott G r u n e r wrote:Thanks Brent. I like that style of wine for the most part- but here is the big disconnect I see...

There was a quote about these wines being the style of wine you can expect in a carafe in on a bistro table in france, etc. Great. Big fan of that light, quaffable style. But guess what- The price point on those is 10-20 per bottle- NOT $45-90.
I don't think that's a very apt characterization of the IPOB style. That group is generally not lacking in ambition/seriousness, and I'm sure most would say that the point of working at the lighter end of the CA spectrum is to gain complexity and transparency rather than quaffability. I don't see any reason to think that less ripe should correlate with less expensive here.
ITB
Kendric Vineyards

p a u l b a t t a g l i a
Posts: 1161
Joined: May 15th, 2015, 1:41 pm
Location: los gatos & taipei

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#32 Post by p a u l b a t t a g l i a » May 28th, 2015, 11:05 pm

as i said earlier in another thread- parr is an obnoxious windbag. he is parker's evil brother... everything the author tries to illustrate as emblematic of parker's flaws, parr equally represents, just on the other end of the spectrum. the article was horrible.

User avatar
Lewis Dawson
Posts: 3875
Joined: June 7th, 2009, 5:37 pm
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#33 Post by Lewis Dawson » May 28th, 2015, 11:29 pm

Stewart Johnson wrote:
Scott G r u n e r wrote:Thanks Brent. I like that style of wine for the most part- but here is the big disconnect I see...

There was a quote about these wines being the style of wine you can expect in a carafe in on a bistro table in france, etc. Great. Big fan of that light, quaffable style. But guess what- The price point on those is 10-20 per bottle- NOT $45-90.
I don't think that's a very apt characterization of the IPOB style. That group is generally not lacking in ambition/seriousness, and I'm sure most would say that the point of working at the lighter end of the CA spectrum is to gain complexity and transparency rather than quaffability. I don't see any reason to think that less ripe should correlate with less expensive here.
In addition, Scott, your attributions are wrong. That quaffable wine was a syrah from an unnamed producer served in a Napa Valley restaurant. Those prices are for Parr's pinot noirs.
-- Lew --
Italian Bikes &
French Wines

User avatar
Lewis Dawson
Posts: 3875
Joined: June 7th, 2009, 5:37 pm
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#34 Post by Lewis Dawson » May 28th, 2015, 11:36 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
Nate Simon wrote:While the article may come as news to some, it's nothing new to anyone who frequents this board. Like most ideological sects, the Parrtisans will forever cleave to their fantasy-world notions, chasing 12% ABV rainbows ad infinitum. No need to beat this horse much further.
As much as I hate internet spats, what have you been smoking? There is nothing "idealogical" about those of us who favor wines made more on the IPOB end of the spectrum (and, frankly, most of the IPOB wines are still fairly mainstream, relative to many Old World wines that some of us prefer even more). This is about having alternatives - a small number of alternatives - to the vast majority of heavier, riper, lusher wines that is most of what California produces in the "fine wine" category.
What Alan said. (Nate, your post is positively Parker-esque. Did you write that, or cut-and-paste from a RMP tweet? LOL.)
-- Lew --
Italian Bikes &
French Wines

User avatar
Lewis Dawson
Posts: 3875
Joined: June 7th, 2009, 5:37 pm
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#35 Post by Lewis Dawson » May 29th, 2015, 12:02 am

p a u l b a t t a g l i a wrote:as i said earlier in another thread- parr is an obnoxious windbag. he is parker's evil brother... everything the author tries to illustrate as emblematic of parker's flaws, parr equally represents, just on the other end of the spectrum. the article was horrible.
Haha. That must be what the author had in mind when he wrote the article...
Bruce Schoenfeld wrote: The success of this nonconformist group, a sort of guerrilla movement against the California mainstream, has prompted invective-­filled exchanges on Internet bulletin boards, blogs and Twitter feeds. Partisans fight over alcohol levels, the proper role of critics and whether restaurants should be trying to influence their customers’ tastes by carrying only certain styles of wine.
Paul, other than just asserting that Parr is an "obnoxious windbag", can you offer anything to support the view? Is it treason or something to promote an alternative aesthetic for California wines?
-- Lew --
Italian Bikes &
French Wines

M.Twelftree
Posts: 193
Joined: June 14th, 2009, 7:24 pm
Location: Barossa Valley, Australia

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#36 Post by M.Twelftree » May 29th, 2015, 12:43 am

For mine...one of the best well constructed, researched and informative pieces I have read on wine in a long time
We all look at the same subject but through a different lens
No right or wrong.......... just a difference of opinion
This is why we all love and care so much for the subject of wine.
Bravo Mr. Schoenfeld, keep them coming.
MT
Michael Twelftree
Two Hands Wine

Bob Hughes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7181
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 1:35 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#37 Post by Bob Hughes » May 29th, 2015, 3:19 am

You know, I just finished reading it and I agree with Michael - I thought the article was well-written and I enjoyed it.

I don't buy a lot of California wine, so to some degree I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I'd consider searching out some Mathiasson just to check it out.

mike pobega
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 11073
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 3:26 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#38 Post by mike pobega » May 29th, 2015, 4:35 am

Jeb Dunnuck is dissapointed by the article after a 2+ hour interview with author.

Hosemaster's interesting view. "Now all the fuss is about wine cults—Natural wines, orange wines, wines from obscure grapes grown in obscure regions, wines in pursuit of balance… "
I agree with him on this. A good read.

http://hosemasterofwine.blogspot.com/20 ... cults.html

User avatar
Alicia C.
Posts: 629
Joined: September 3rd, 2013, 12:54 pm
Location: Cambridge, Mass. (ex-D.C.-er)

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#39 Post by Alicia C. » May 29th, 2015, 5:04 am

It's been fun watching this conversation evolve (or maybe dissolve?).

Here's an interesting tweet from the author -- which often is a sign of a decently balanced story:
Hearing from both sides of my NYT "Wrath of Grapes" story that I'm clearly biased against them. Now I know how umpires feel.


As for Jeb Dunnuck complaints (I've only seen it mentioned here), but a two hour interview doesn't guarantee your entire transcript from the interview gets included in a story. I've edited stories for my news organization where day-long interviews get left on the cutting room floor (for a million different reasons). I'm surprised as someone who runs a newsletter, he doesn't understand that already. Writers interview many people without even quoting them. Sometimes their information is used to help further research or lead to better sources, sometimes after two hours (as Tom mentioned earlier), the source only has one coherent thing to say, or maybe he just repeated his main argument 50 different times in those two hours. Obviously we don't know what happened, but IMHO, without knowing Jeb, it speaks more to his ego than what he probably had to say. (Happy to retract that if someone has more background as to what else he said).

One other quick comment... someone mentioned they had wished they'd seen more of the 33 winemakers included ... I agree... although since Rajat co-founded the organization (which was created mostly for marketing reasons -- so you can't blame the guy for being a good marketer of himself) -- and this was written for an audience that has probably never even heard of IPOB, Rajat or Parker for that matter... I'd question the reporter had he not included him.

And a quick tasting note: I've had the Matthiasson rosé and it's one of my favorite wines of the summer -- like drinking a dry, crisp strawberry lemonade.
last name starts with a CY and ends with PRESS
I'm @itswinebyme on Twitter and Tumblr

User avatar
NoahR
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2421
Joined: December 1st, 2013, 1:07 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#40 Post by NoahR » May 29th, 2015, 5:12 am

I think the point of the article was well taken, that there is an alternative style to Parkerized wines. I think the article was simplistic, paints a Manichaean struggle between Parker and Parr, and makes them stand-ins for a wider sea change in the tastes of collectors and consumers, stand-ins for a sea change in the styles being thought worthy of production amongst vintners. The vocabulary of wine descriptors has changed on shelves. This is wholesale change, not the result of Raj Parr on a pulpit. The wine world does not start or end with Parker or Parr. They may be loud mouthed spokespersons for their views, but the article is superficial to such a degree that it was annoyance to read it. It was also so one- sided I'm surprised there wasn't a description of being teabagged by Parr over a few bottles of 12.5% ABV domestic pinot.

When you have articles so simplistic and one- sided, they look like propaganda, which weakens their potential effect. I am a fan of subtlety, precision, nuance and complexity: in writing as well as wine.
Noah Raizman
Washington, DC

Bob Hughes
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7181
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 1:35 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#41 Post by Bob Hughes » May 29th, 2015, 5:22 am

Again, unless you have some preconceived notion of what is "right", not sure I see how the original article is "one-sided".

Mike, you and I have chatted both on and off-line over the years, so I respect your opinion, but strictly IMO, I thought the Hosemaster came across as a self-serving jackass in that write-up - which I guess is why there is vanilla & chocolate.

User avatar
D@vid Bu3ker
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 37884
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 8:06 am
Location: Connecticut

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#42 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 29th, 2015, 5:29 am

For what it's worth (and I will post a note later), I had a Domaine de la Cote Pinot last night. It was served blind, and the table roundly declared it overripe and sweet. It was a shock when the bag came off.
David Bueker - Rieslingfan

User avatar
NoahR
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2421
Joined: December 1st, 2013, 1:07 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#43 Post by NoahR » May 29th, 2015, 5:36 am

Bob Hughes wrote:Again, unless you have some preconceived notion of what is "right", not sure I see how the original article is "one-sided..
Really?

Parker is portrayed as a man in decline, both physically, economically/business-wise, and in influence, shouting polemics and spouting invective to his own choir while Raj is the new young Turk, standing up for what is True and Right in wine. I don't think there's much room for discussion or confusion on that point.

Please point to where you feel the article is more balanced than I'm giving it credit for.
Noah Raizman
Washington, DC

Jonathan Loesberg
Posts: 1914
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 5:59 am

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#44 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » May 29th, 2015, 5:40 am

It sounds as if Jeb Dunnock has never been interviewed for an article for which he was not the subject before. Long interviews that lead to one quote are par for the course. It sounds as if Parker referred the author to Dunnock. The author did due diligence and took from it what he needed.

Really, with all due respect to Dunnock, he isn't really an obvious interview for this story. His beat is the Rhone and while certainly the distinction gets made with regard to those wines, they weren't the content of this story.

mike pobega
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 11073
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 3:26 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#45 Post by mike pobega » May 29th, 2015, 5:48 am

Bob Hughes wrote:Again, unless you have some preconceived notion of what is "right", not sure I see how the original article is "one-sided".

Mike, you and I have chatted both on and off-line over the years, so I respect your opinion, but strictly IMO, I thought the Hosemaster came across as a self-serving jackass in that write-up - which I guess is why there is vanilla & chocolate.

Bob, both of the so called 'sides' certainly have had enough shots sent over to the other side and more concisely, isn't he always? I am not usually a fan, but this one seems a bit more in-tuned with the pulse of things. Again, I like Raj and have no problem with the 'movement' and still eschew anyone who shyts on anyone else’s wine preferences. Just yesterday Paul J felt the need to pooh-pooh a FB thread from a CLONYC the night before. I never understand what makes a grown man take the time to throw daggers so I chalk it up to boredom. We drank 2012 Napa Cabs, of which I will not be posting notes, but it is safe to say I felt there was present a certain sameness to many of the wines, so maybe an old dog can learn a thing or two yet.
Btw, I too respect your input on all things wine.

BTW, this article reminded me that I needed to purchase a few more Domaine de la Cote Pinots and I did 20 minutes ago! Thanks LPASS!!!

mmarcellus
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 946
Joined: January 1st, 2010, 3:51 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#46 Post by mmarcellus » May 29th, 2015, 5:56 am

NoahR wrote:
Bob Hughes wrote:Again, unless you have some preconceived notion of what is "right", not sure I see how the original article is "one-sided..
Really?

Parker is portrayed as a man in decline, both physically, economically/business-wise, and in influence, shouting polemics and spouting invective to his own choir while Raj is the new young Turk, standing up for what is True and Right in wine. I don't think there's much room for discussion or confusion on that point.

Please point to where you feel the article is more balanced than I'm giving it credit for.
What goes around, comes around. Somewhere Robert Finigan is laughing.
M @ r k

Wes Barton
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4115
Joined: January 29th, 2009, 3:54 am

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#47 Post by Wes Barton » May 29th, 2015, 6:01 am

Alan Rath wrote:
Nate Simon wrote:While the article may come as news to some, it's nothing new to anyone who frequents this board. Like most ideological sects, the Parrtisans will forever cleave to their fantasy-world notions, chasing 12% ABV rainbows ad infinitum. No need to beat this horse much further.
As much as I hate internet spats, what have you been smoking? There is nothing "idealogical" about those of us who favor wines made more on the IPOB end of the spectrum (and, frankly, most of the IPOB wines are still fairly mainstream, relative to many Old World wines that some of us prefer even more). This is about having alternatives - a small number of alternatives - to the vast majority of heavier, riper, lusher wines that is most of what California produces in the "fine wine" category.
Up is down, moderate is extreme, balance is thin and weedy.
ITB - Useless lackey

"I've acquired enough wine to seduce an elephant." - Jennifer Robin

User avatar
bob poirier
Posts: 1012
Joined: December 2nd, 2009, 12:11 pm
Location: North Shore Mass

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#48 Post by bob poirier » May 29th, 2015, 6:11 am

The article may be one sided in that the majority of the interview and comments were from Raj, but I didn't find the tone of it to be one sided, the author seemed to be in the camp that it is all just a matter of taste. I do think the name IPOB is unfortunate and I'm not surprised some wine makers might be offended ( actually I find the name quite douchey)
I'm a Parker guy ( but not a defender, he has said some pretty stupid things) when it comes to Cabs and syrah, I'm not a fan of Arnot Roberts or Rhys syrah's, but I'm more of a fan of AFWE pinots and Chards, including AR's chards and Copain and Kutch's pinots FWIW

[cheers.gif]

User avatar
NoahR
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2421
Joined: December 1st, 2013, 1:07 pm

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#49 Post by NoahR » May 29th, 2015, 7:08 am

mmarcellus wrote:
What goes around, comes around. Somewhere Robert Finigan is laughing.
+1
It will be very interesting to see where the wine collector world goes over the next 20 years. Will we like low alcohol, restrained Bordeaux in 20 years and reassess the legacy of RMP? I imagine it might happen with a 2011 Cali resurgence but I suspect that no one will want to compromise the value of their own collection and thus his legacy will live on.

(Edited for grammar)
Noah Raizman
Washington, DC

User avatar
Tim Heaton
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1302
Joined: September 8th, 2011, 4:11 pm
Location: Castle Rock, Colorado or Piemonte

The Wrath Of Grapes -- NY Times on IPOB

#50 Post by Tim Heaton » May 29th, 2015, 7:11 am

NoahR wrote:I think the point of the article was well taken, that there is an alternative style to Parkerized wines. I think the article was simplistic, paints a Manichaean struggle between Parker and Parr, and makes them stand-ins for a wider sea change in the tastes of collectors and consumers, stand-ins for a sea change in the styles being thought worthy of production amongst vintners. The vocabulary of wine descriptors has changed on shelves. This is wholesale change, not the result of Raj Parr on a pulpit. The wine world does not start or end with Parker or Parr. They may be loud mouthed spokespersons for their views, but the article is superficial to such a degree that it was annoyance to read it. It was also so one- sided I'm surprised there wasn't a description of being teabagged by Parr over a few bottles of 12.5% ABV domestic pinot.

When you have articles so simplistic and one- sided, they look like propaganda, which weakens their potential effect. I am a fan of subtlety, precision, nuance and complexity: in writing as well as wine.
Well said, Noah. [cheers.gif]
ITB: winestrategies
italianwine.blog
CT: Tim Heaton

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”