Wine flaws and what they are and what your tolerance is

How to do this: add your answers by cutting and pasting Post #2…if someone wants to put up a post describing how to identify these flaws i.e. what they taste and smell like, I’d appreciate it; maybe add a flaw or two…I did it, giving my own experiences and evolution, and accidentally deleted it

Scale of 1 to 10, “1” being I’m not very sensitive to it and/or I don’t mind it, can guzzle a wine like this with pleasure, “10” meaning I detect it readily and it makes me vomit and give up wine forever if I have one sip.

My definitions are wildly inaccurate but it’s to give newbies an idea and to help them recognize these flaws:

TCA (“corked”), a chemical derived from washing a fungal cork in chlorine…that can also spread throughout the winery for some reason… the #1, and possibly only, reason to return a bottle in a restaurant or to a store…8 percent of wines under natural cork are corked…symptoms vary wildly

Brettanomyces (“brett”), a yeast which can grow in a warmer bottle, or in a barrel that wasn’t topped off, and ruin the wine in larger quantities…in small quantities, some people like it, especially in red Rhones

Prematurely oxidated (“premox”) or just oxidated (“ox’d” or “maderized”): white Burgundy, which is Chardonnay, or other white wine which tastes really old and like sherry or Madeira

Cooked: a wine which has, sometime during its life, been exposed to intense heat, either because you bought it at a winery in Napa in the summer and then stored it in your trunk over the muffler pipe for the rest of the day [DON’T DO THIS], or it sat on a loading dock in the sun in Florida…telltale signs are a drip down the outside of the bottle, a soaked red cork, a bottle that causes blisters when you touch it, or a perfect seeming bottle but the guy next to you spits it out and yells “It’s had it” and you say “yeah” as if you already knew it was cooked

Mercaptans: People in charge of sailing vessels who smell like onion skin, or something
Diacetyl: you open the bottle and the room smells like margarine
All sorts of other things that are probably biological type flaws like a banana smell

Herbal or vegetal (“green”): Herbal can be lovely (1994 Bryant for some people) or horrid (the near-identical 1994 Colgin for some people). A bit of veggies (green pepper eg) can be lovely (many Calif cabs, like 1997 Togni right now, or 1992 Groth reserve) or horrid (Groth Reserve 1990, Togni 1994, Monterey cabernet in the old days)

Oaky: this means the wine is “oaky,” which is a way of saying that it is “oaky”

Surmaturite (“Parker”): very very ripe, a lot of alcohol and/or sugar, some people love it, some hate it…
— see Residual sugar: (“RS”): the yeast did not turn all of the grape sugar into alcohol so there is some sugar left, maybe because the grapes got very ripe and sugary
— see Detectable alcohol when tasting the wine: (“Heat”, “warmth”, “hot,” “Barossa”): almost always a real flaw, and often indicative of a vintage which for that whole region was too hot that year for that grape

Spoofilated: a wine dressed up to seem much richer than the grapes themselves could provide, by doing all sorts of nefarious but legal things to it

Ladybug shit or something (the “green meanies”): found in 2004 red Burgundies, but it showed up after the critics tasted the wines (seriously), some wines are undrinkable, some just fine; there is an ancient legend that the 2011’s may have a little of this also.

TCA (“corked”)

Brettanomyces (“brett”)

Prematurely oxidated (“premox”) or just oxidated (“ox’d” or “maderized”)

Cooked

Mercaptans

Diacetyl

All sorts of other things that are probably biological type flaws like a banana smell

Herbal or vegetal (“green”)

Oaky

Surmaturite

— see Residual sugar

— see Detectable alcohol

Spoofilated

The “green meanies”

TCA (“corked”) - Not good at picking it, but when I do it’s DNPIM

Brettanomyces (“brett”) - Love it in low to medium levels, yet to discover a wine that was too bretty

Prematurely oxidated (“premox”) or just oxidated (“ox’d” or “maderized”) - Definitely to a wine’s detriment for me, but often accepted as a trade-off vs. complexity in older wines. I’ve not ‘got’ Orange wines, but do like White Musar & traditional white rioja.

Cooked - No known exposure to this

Mercaptans - Little exposure to such aromas, but not a positive.

Diacetyl - well buttery chards are a guilty pleasure here, so I’d say tolerant.

All sorts of other things that are probably biological type flaws like a banana smell - Might vary, some tolerable, others not

Herbal or vegetal (“green”) - Generally pretty happy with this, at least in the modern context.

Oaky - Generally not a positive and especially unpleasant if overt in young wines. Maturity can help greatly. Caramel/toffee flavours in anything but specific wines (I’m thinking Vin Santo as acceptable) are a big turn off

Surmaturite - Yes generally happy with the trade-off vs. complexity, so tolerant of creaking old wines. [EDIT: Over mature wines - very tolerant; Over-mature grapes - less so outside of the context of dessert wines]

Residual sugar - In dessert or aperitivo wines, no problem

Detectable alcohol - Generally a bad thing, as is overly plump fruit that can effectively hide it, but creates a wine I still find hard to drink.

Spoofy - sort of covered above for me by the oak, fruit, alc.

The “green meanies” - Generally tolerant of green tastes/aromas but not experienced the Burg issues

I suppose others may also take exception to:

• Petillant wines
• Bitter/Sour
• High acidity

regards
Ian

TCA (“corked”) - My threshold is high and don’t pick it up nearly as often as the stats suggest I should. I’m ok with that, but probably some muted wines are really TCA that I don’t recognize.

Brettanomyces (“brett”) - Very low tolerance and even high end wines known for their brett turn me off.

Prematurely oxidated (“premox”) or just oxidated (“ox’d” or “maderized”) - not too much experience with this one. The few times I’ve had wines that might be oxidizd, I tend to struggle through.

Cooked - Not much experience with this either. A time or two bottles have been poured out that might have been cooked.

Mercaptans - Also adding in other reduced sulfur, H2S. I can detect this at low concentration, but find that it will blow off most of the time with no lingering effect that would prevent me from enjoying a wine.

Diacetyl - Another one I’m not too familiar with. I drink almost no chardonnay.

All sorts of other things that are probably biological type flaws like a banana smell - Not really exposed to much of this, though some “BAD wines” might really just have biological flaws, which just makes them undrinkable. I’d also lump Volatile Acidity (VA) into this category as a biological flaw. That one I am pretty sensitive to, and will pour out a wine pretty quickly with too much acetate goin on.

Herbal or vegetal (“green”) - I don’t consider this a flaw. The compounds come from the fruit and they’re either there or not. Yes there are some winemaking techniques that can remove or reduce them but this really a ripeness and picking decision. That said I really like it in some cases, hate it in others.

Oaky - Another one I don’t consider a flaw per se. I am not a fan of overly oaked wines though. I tend to be more tolerant of French oak than American and I think French integrates better for my palate over time.

Surmaturite - Not flaws but winemaker choices most of the time. I’m ok with some RS if it works within the context of the wine/varietal. Plenty of white wines are improved with some RS imo. Not as tolerant of detectable alcohol, but I’d rather the EtOH be there than not, because I enjoy it’s effect.

— see Residual sugar

— see Detectable alcohol

Spoofilated - Not sure I drink many of these, but I don’t want to detect anything that might be in this category. The grapes are fine by themselves 100% of the time in my book.

The “green meanies” - Don’t have experience with this one.

Fun post and interesting to think about.

TCA (“corked”) - very sensitive, sometimes I’m the only one in the room to identify it, and I don’t like it and won’t drink it.

Brettanomyces (“brett”) - fairly sensitive in terms of identifying it, but often find it adds complexity in a good way if not excessive. My cutoff for excessive is higher than most of my wine drinking buds.

Prematurely oxidated (“premox”) or just oxidated (“ox’d” or “maderized”) - this is more complicated. I love aged wines so some degree of oxidation is often inherent. As long as it is not overt and there are still fruit components to the complexity I am fine with it. When it sticks out and is overtly Sherry- or Madeira-like, I’ll dump it.

Cooked - moderately sensitive, will tolerate it if desperate.

Mercaptans - sensitive, can be a plus at very low levels in certain wines like some aspects of Brett, but generally not a fan of mercaptan or disulfide aromas. I will wait to see if it blows off. Not to be confused with the sharp matchstick sulfite aromas which also often blow off.

Diacetyl - depends on my mood

All sorts of other things that are probably biological type flaws like a banana smell - don’t like bananas in my Bojo

Herbal or vegetal (“green”) - again it depends on the amount and the wine, a little adds complexity, too much and I consider it a weedy fault. I think AFWE palates tolerate/enjoy this more than I do. Loire cab franc is a poster child. In a ripe year I love it. In a cooler year, I’ll pass and let the AFWEs Hoover them up. Green beans and geraniums are among the different versions of green, and are less positive to me than herbal, grassy greens, with green peppers somewhere in between.

Oaky - good if used judiciously like any spice, I’ve become less enamored of overt oak over the years but can enjoy it in a “cocktail” wine. Also think it integrates over time to a surprising degree in some wines, so flaw-level oakiness in youth sometimes becomes good spice-level oakiness over time

Surmaturite - less tolerant of grape-y jammy wines than in the past but I’m far from an AFWE. I like many levels of ripeness. Depends on the wine

— see Residual sugar - not a flaw but a style choice. Love it in Sauternes, not so much in Chard or Cab

— see Detectable alcohol - like that you said detectable, as on the palate vs on the label. Generally not a fan for wines to be drunk with a meal, but OK in a cocktail wine drunk before or after the meal

Spoofilated - a style choice not a flaw and as poorly defined as “natural” wine. Is Leoville Las Cases spoofilated because they use reverse osmosis? I’ve liked some and detested others.

The “green meanies” - fairly sensitive to pyrazines and can tolerate them at low levels if there is enough fruit to take center stage. I don’t think of these as so much “green” (which I associate with vegetal or weedy), but more of a chemical smell, a bit like the old naphtha cleaning fluid for those old enough to remember.

And another huge category that you’ve left out: volatile acidity - also something I’ll tolerate at low levels if there is plenty going on in the wine to keep the VA in the background, can be a component of complexity if very low level

And another huge category that you’ve left out: volatile acidity - also something I’ll tolerate at low levels if there is plenty going on in the wine to keep the VA in the background, > can be a component of complexity if very low level

was just going to post this. Well said, David

+1

TCA (“corked”) - i’m not super-sensitive to TCA, at least compared to most of the ITB i hang out with on a regular basis. score 6.

Brettanomyces (“brett”), don’t mind a bit of brett at all, especially in PN or Rhones. score 3.

Prematurely oxidated (“premox”) or just oxidated (“ox’d” or “maderized”): not a fan. score 8

Cooked: stewed fruit is not attractive. score 9

Mercaptans: really, really offputting. score 9

Diacetyl: tolerable, depending on the wine. score 5

Herbal or vegetal (“green”): used to hate this component, but am learning that for some wines, i.e. Cab Franc, it can be varietally correct. score 4

Oaky: oak is fine in moderation. score 2

Surmaturite (“Parker”): very very ripe, a lot of alcohol and/or sugar, some people love it, some hate it…
— see Residual sugar: (“RS”): depends on the wine. sometimes, a little “slutty” component is good. score 4
— see Detectable alcohol when tasting the wine: not a big fan. score 7

Spoofilated: not sure if i could identify one w/out being privy to the process. no score

Ladybug shit or something (the “green meanies”): depends on severity of influence. a little in the background? probably fine. overpowering? probably dumping it. score 8

Does diacetyl mean that buttery wines are technically flawed?