Seeking advice from Rhone experts

A few weeks ago I drank my only bottle of 2004 Rayas La Pialade and I’m still thinking about it. I loved how open it was, there was space between the notes. It was very well balanced with nice fruit, spice, resolved tannins and just enough acid to carry it all, with a beautiful silky mouthfeel.

My question, are there any other producers in Rhone, heck, anywhere in the world, that are producing a Grenache based wine that is similar?

Thanks for any suggestions

Dan, you will get lots of suggestions, but IMO the answer is “no,” other than Chateau des Tours, where Emmaneul Reynaud also makes the wines. The Chateau de Tours wines are much like the Chateau Rayas wines, and much less expensive. The Vacqueyras is superb, the CdR very good, and the VdP a really good every day wine, but they, too, are becoming hard to find.

Disclaimer: I sell Chateau Rayas and Chateau de Tours when I can get them.

This is like saying “are there any writers like James Joyce?” I’m definitely not a Rhone expert, but I love Rhone wines.

I think you would like the Grenache wines from Angela Osbourne’s A Tribute to Grace label. I will stop short of saying they are “like” Rayas, but I do believe the same spirit & belief in Grenache is there.

I’d expect more Rhone producers would try to copy the Rayas house style. I don’t know of any.

One Grenache I find similar is A Tribute To Grace, from CA. It’s available and not that expensive compared to Rayas CdP wines. And to me your La Pialade description could have been this wine. It’s worth checking out, if you are looking for other options.

The softness and elegance of Rayas is often attributed to the sandy soils so perhaps you should start there. Domaine de la Roquete (Kermit Lynch import) properties possess some sandy soils as well, and are farmed by the same family that farmed the well know La Crau site. Some fruit for the cuvée is also sourced from Pignan. Might be worth a look.

Martin, Thanks for the information. It is helpful and it would be nice to have a similar experience for less money!

Thanks Anthony and Bryan.

Two suggestions of a wine of which I am unfamiliar. I will change that!

Sounds like a great suggestion - Thanks!



Both seem logical, but unfortunately it´s not that easy.

First: La Pialade is the 3rd (we can even say 5th) wine from the whole Rayas/Fonsalette-estate.
Everything that isn´t used in the Fonsalette and F.Syrah (and Rayas/Pignan resp.) ends up in La Pialade - so it´s usually only 50-60% Grenache, with the rest Cinsault and Syrah, possibly even with tiny parts of Grenache blanc, Clairette and Marsanne, grown some 30 km north of Rayas on completely different soils. I very much doubt that a single drop of Rayas ever is in La Pialade, although it might be possible in very weak vintages …
(e.g. in 1982 all of Rayas/Pignan went into Fonsalette …)

But the hyrarchie usually is:
Rayas is (when necessary) declassified into Pignan (never the other way round) … some lesser Pignan might go into Fonsalette (although very rarely) - and weak Fonsalette goes into La Pialade.

Chateau des Tours is an independent estate - and has enough cuvees itself to cope with lesser material.

There is indeed a strong resemblance between des Tours and Rayas, but it´s got only little to do with the soil (which is different), much more with the wine-making and philosophy. The Vacqueyras is close to 100% Grenache, but the Cotes-du-Rhone (G. + Cinsault, Syrah, Counoise) and the VdP (+ Merlot !) are not.

Although I´m visiting and tasting at Rayas for almost 25 years I´m always puzzled and still remain igorant how exactly Jacques did it - and Emmanuel now does it. The cellar looks dirty in 19th century fashion like ever, the anchient casks (!) are certainly very important … and another major factor are the very low yields. Moreover ripening happens very slowly (no stones in the vineyards) with great patience, no hurry, late harvest (risky!) with close as perfect ripeness as possible … with very traditional vinification (no destemming) and not extremely long maceration.
(they do NOT have a consultant or oenologue !!! neener )

Yes, many things several other producers are also practicing partially or predominantly - but still Rayas and the other cuvees are simply UNIQUE … there is no substitute for the real thing, Rayas is not only a wine, it´s a unique strong character with immense individuality …

Chateau des Tours is a good introduction - and Pignan is quite close to Rayas in some vintages (in others its far less interesting, sweet and intense …), but who hasn´t tasted a fine MATURE Rayas has definitely missed something important, IMHO more than never having a Romanee-Conti, La Tache or La Romanee. flirtysmile

FWIW, I think the des Tours and Roquete are good recommendations, but MUCH juicier style of wine.

Chappelle St Theodoric Le Grand Pin is something to seek out. It’s a Chateauneuf (Weygandt brings it in), and IIRC, it’s right next to Rayas. Banneret is another I would recommend in terms of similiar style, but from a different terroir type. Also CDP

As others have said no two are alike, just similar. I find Charvin CdP as similarly red fruited as Rayas. But been ages since I had a La Pialade which as noted is their third wine.

I agree that Charvin is similar red fruited in appearance as Rayas, but the aromatic profile and the texture are very much different - Charvin elevates the wine in concrete tanks without any wood … the situation on the Maucoil and Cabrieres side is very different in terroir - and it´s only 85% Grenache.
However excellent wine.

What about Bonneau? Not inexpensive, I know, but stylistically distinctive, and also Grenache heavy.

(I have precious little experience with either Rayas or Bonneau. Sadly.)

I did several comparative tastings between Rayas, Bonneau, Pegau and others - over 2-3 decades.
The stylistic differences are very distinctive - Bonneau being much more rustic, tannic, spicy (in the youth), even sometimes alcoholic, but with exceptional length and - when mature - great sweetness and intensity, however lacking the intense soir cherry scents and almost burgundian finesse and balance of a great Rayas.
Bonneau is a character of its own …

Kind of a similiarity to Rayas can be found e.g. in Marcoux Vieilles Vignes … and Domaine Giraud Grenache de Pierre (since 2001), but in a more modern style.

I have been searching and the answer I have arrived at to the OPs question is no. There is nothing quite like Rayas.

I tasted the line-up at A Tribute to Grace with Angela last summer. Nice wines and great energy from her, but I didnt detect any resemblance in the wines to Rayas, at least today, but perhaps she will get there one day as she was speaking of doing an internship at Rayas when I met with her.

Charvin is great. It’s also not Rayas and not even that close. I will say though that if you like Rayas you might like Charvin. Charvin for me is usually darker in fruit profile and emphasizes a more black olive component. I love it and buy it.

I’m yet to taste Chappelle St Theodoric Le Grand Pin. It on my radar and on paper should resemble Rayas, but does it? I have doubts. Anyone tasted it?

Well as others have said, Rayas is kind of unique. It’s the exception to my general observation that Grenache-based wines are generally better younger than older.

So my suggestion is that you look at wines from elsewhere made with the same grapes, or that you look at wines made in a style that’s similar. Easier said than done of course, and that last is hard to quantify, but you can start by eliminating a few grapes/regions.

Wines from Piedmont, for example, aren’t going to be similar. Most wines from Tuscany or Bordeaux won’t be either. But people pick up different things so depending on what it was you liked about the Rayas, you might want to look at something else from the Rhone, or maybe Spain, or south Italy, or even Portugal or Greece or Australia or perhaps the US. I’ve not had anything that’s exactly the same, but if nothing else, you’ll have a good time.

The opening post is by someone who drank a Pialade and liked it. One might guess he is looking simply for more CdRs. If he is looking for more CdR in the Rayas style, then indeed the Chateau des Tours CdR is a likely next step.

No CdP is going to be like Rayas, any more than any CdP is or should be like another. But the recognition of other traditionally made CdPs from Northern vineyards in the appellation is a good one. To the list of Charvin and Marcoux, I’d add Ferrand. Both Charvin and Ferrand make very good CdRs as well from vineyards just across the Northern border of the appellation. But one should note that to the extent that Pialade has Fonsalette grapes, we are talking about an entirely different vineyard, some miles from CdP.

Gerhard,

A few comments/queries:

  • Are you sure that Rayas is declassified into Pignan, and Pignan into Fonsalette? This is the first time I read this. My understanding is that Pignan is a different terroir/location, and as you said Fonsalette is 30km or so north of Chateauneuf. I’m also not sure that La Pialade uses lesser grapes from Fonsalette, but it could be possible.
  • The “standard” Domaine des Tours doesn’t contain merlot I believe, there are separate bottlings for Merlot and Merlot-Syrah. I’ve had both one or two times and for me they are not done in the same “spirit” as other wines from the Reynaud family. Note: I’m not a fan of merlot from anywhere.

As for the OP, I’m not sure about availability in the US, but I would recommend the Domaine d’Elise - Le Pradel (Coteaux du Languedoc), which is made of 100% cinsault. I’d say I’m pretty familiar with Domaine/Chateau des Tours, having drunk dozens of bottles in the last 3 years, and I usually recognize them without too much difficulties, but with this wine it could be a coin flip.

Closest wine in style I’ve had, but also not without its own identify. If that makes any sense… :slight_smile:

Alain

Yes, I´m sure, but as I wrote: “rarely” …

Rayas and Pignan are two different terroirs, however close to each other. Usually they are bottled separately, but IF a part from Rayas is not up to the standard it goes into Pignan.

In 1991 for instance ALL of Rayas landed in Pignan - no (red) Rayas produced.

I´m quite sure that at least in 2002 and 2008 also Rayas was partially delassified into Pignan, maybe also in 2011 and 2013 … Emmanuel doesn´t like to talk about it in details …

All Fonsalette-wines are vinified and elevated at the Cellar of Ch. Rayas - so the distance isn´t very far (some meters [wow.gif] ) … and if part of Pignan isn´t worth of a Chateauneuf, it goes into Fonsalette (as was the case in 1982 with all Rayas and Pignan).

La Pialade is simply all the rest that remains from the “better” cuvees at Fonsalette …

There are two designations: Chateau des Tours for Vacqueyras and Cotes du Rhone -
and Domaine des Tours for Vin de Pays de Vaucluse … and since no Merlot is allowed in Rhone-wines all the Merlot is in the Vin des Pays … with Grenache, Counoise, Syrah and Cinsault …

I never heard of special “Merlot”-bottlings … but it might be possible for some vintages …

I have tasted several vintages of LaPialade - it is usually a good but not very interesting wine.

Fonsalette and both Chateau des Tours Vaqueyras and Cotes-du-Rhone are far better, and the latter should not be more expensive.