Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
Bill Klapp (deactivated)
Posts: 5039
Joined: June 27th, 2009, 12:50 am
Location: Neive, Italy and Burgundy, France

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#51 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » January 17th, 2015, 7:06 am

Dave Nerland wrote:Clearly Leroy. Hands down.
This, and there is no second choice. Clos de Vougeot is a premier cru with an interesting history masquerading as a grand cru. Ditto Echezeaux. If you are going to pay the grand cru freight, you need to get grand cru Burgundy. I would (and do) pass on Clos de Vougeot entirely, the quality of Leroy notwithstanding...

Gary York
Posts: 8011
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 4:02 pm
Location: Richmond, Va.

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#52 Post by Gary York » January 17th, 2015, 8:34 am

How many producers have holdings in CV?
ITB

User avatar
Henry Kiichli
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4549
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 9:04 am
Location: Oldenburg, Germany

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#53 Post by Henry Kiichli » January 17th, 2015, 8:38 am

Gary York wrote:How many producers have holdings in CV?
Over 80
"Police say Henry smelled of alcohol and acknowledged drinking a six-pack of Hamm’s beer with the hogs"

Gary York
Posts: 8011
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 4:02 pm
Location: Richmond, Va.

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#54 Post by Gary York » January 17th, 2015, 8:40 am

Wow. Thanks.
ITB

User avatar
Henry Kiichli
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4549
Joined: April 30th, 2010, 9:04 am
Location: Oldenburg, Germany

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#55 Post by Henry Kiichli » January 17th, 2015, 8:42 am

Gary,

Check out the map back at post #25.
"Police say Henry smelled of alcohol and acknowledged drinking a six-pack of Hamm’s beer with the hogs"

Gerhard P.
Posts: 5007
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#56 Post by Gerhard P. » January 17th, 2015, 9:07 am

A Songeur wrote:Paul,
Eugenie? This looks like infanticide as they have only be producing for a few years following Engel passing.

Puzzled by Gerhard about Mugneret Gibourg as I have never had it but everybody tells me they are wonderful (I have 3 bottles in cellar but too young (2006, 2011 and 2012).

I love Grivot Cols Vougeot 2002.
Georges Mugneret-G. : I´ve had a fair share of wines from 1988 to 2000 ... from NSG to CV to E to Ruchottes an Feusselottes, and very rarely if ever do they excite me ... some have been good, some ok, quite a few disapointing, with (too) elevated acidity and lacking sweetness and finesse (always a bit clumsy ....)
Also tasted a lot after 2000, also 2010 and 11 .... yes, promising but not really complex ... not really singing. I´ll see how younger vintages develope ....
Bill Klapp wrote:
Dave Nerland wrote:Clearly Leroy. Hands down.
This, and there is no second choice. Clos de Vougeot is a premier cru with an interesting history masquerading as a grand cru. Ditto Echezeaux. If you are going to pay the grand cru freight, you need to get grand cru Burgundy. I would (and do) pass on Clos de Vougeot entirely, the quality of Leroy notwithstanding...
This is a very shortsighted (somewhat snobistic) point.
There are wonderful Clos Vougeots that deliever everything one can long for in a GC Burgundy, especially with the apropriate age on it.
Nothing against Leroy, sure a top-producer, but to say that everything else is "crap" or not worth of GC status is ridiculous.
Yes, there are disapointing CVs not worth the money, but the same can be said about many other Crus .... including Chambertin, Clos de la Roche, Bonnes-Mares et al..... even Musigny and R.St.Vivant.

A fine CV often can be found easier and cheaper than some expensive famous 1er Crus - and can also be the better wine .... still a Richebourg or Romanee-St.Vivant, a Musigny, a Clos de Beze might be superior .... but for 3, 4, 5+ times the price ...
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

Peter Chiu
Posts: 3871
Joined: January 28th, 2011, 1:39 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#57 Post by Peter Chiu » January 17th, 2015, 1:37 pm

paul hanna wrote:Eugenie....

+++ 100%.

But too pricey for me personally. [cheers.gif]

User avatar
Lewis Dawson
Posts: 3875
Joined: June 7th, 2009, 5:37 pm
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#58 Post by Lewis Dawson » January 17th, 2015, 2:06 pm

I'm not sure if "snobistic" is an actual word, but if it isn't, it *should* be, and perfectly used by Gerhard to describe Klapp's post above. IMO of course.
-- Lew --
Italian Bikes &
French Wines

Gerhard P.
Posts: 5007
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#59 Post by Gerhard P. » January 17th, 2015, 2:21 pm

Lewis Dawson wrote:I'm not sure if "snobistic" is an actual word, but if it isn't, it *should* be, and perfectly used by Gerhard to describe Klapp's post above. IMO of course.
Sorry, I apology ... the word "snobistic" really seems to be non-existant .... I should have written "snotty" ...
or does "snobbish" exist? I any case one knows what I meant.

(still problems with foreign language .... pardon)
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

Gary York
Posts: 8011
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 4:02 pm
Location: Richmond, Va.

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#60 Post by Gary York » January 17th, 2015, 2:42 pm

Yes, I think your meaning came across.

Henry - thanks but I can't seem to make out the fine detail on the map. Maybe I need a magnifying glass. And the link doesn't open for me. I will try again later.
ITB

User avatar
Bill Klapp (deactivated)
Posts: 5039
Joined: June 27th, 2009, 12:50 am
Location: Neive, Italy and Burgundy, France

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#61 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » January 17th, 2015, 3:17 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
A Songeur wrote:Paul,
Eugenie? This looks like infanticide as they have only be producing for a few years following Engel passing.

Puzzled by Gerhard about Mugneret Gibourg as I have never had it but everybody tells me they are wonderful (I have 3 bottles in cellar but too young (2006, 2011 and 2012).

I love Grivot Cols Vougeot 2002.
Georges Mugneret-G. : I´ve had a fair share of wines from 1988 to 2000 ... from NSG to CV to E to Ruchottes an Feusselottes, and very rarely if ever do they excite me ... some have been good, some ok, quite a few disapointing, with (too) elevated acidity and lacking sweetness and finesse (always a bit clumsy ....)
Also tasted a lot after 2000, also 2010 and 11 .... yes, promising but not really complex ... not really singing. I´ll see how younger vintages develope ....
Bill Klapp wrote:
Dave Nerland wrote:Clearly Leroy. Hands down.
This, and there is no second choice. Clos de Vougeot is a premier cru with an interesting history masquerading as a grand cru. Ditto Echezeaux. If you are going to pay the grand cru freight, you need to get grand cru Burgundy. I would (and do) pass on Clos de Vougeot entirely, the quality of Leroy notwithstanding...
This is a very shortsighted (somewhat snobistic) point.
There are wonderful Clos Vougeots that deliever everything one can long for in a GC Burgundy, especially with the apropriate age on it.
Nothing against Leroy, sure a top-producer, but to say that everything else is "crap" or not worth of GC status is ridiculous.
Yes, there are disapointing CVs not worth the money, but the same can be said about many other Crus .... including Chambertin, Clos de la Roche, Bonnes-Mares et al..... even Musigny and R.St.Vivant.

A fine CV often can be found easier and cheaper than some expensive famous 1er Crus - and can also be the better wine .... still a Richebourg or Romanee-St.Vivant, a Musigny, a Clos de Beze might be superior .... but for 3, 4, 5+ times the price ...
Do the math, Gerhard. Easy to find and cheaper than some 1er crus? Absolutely. Some 1er crus deserving of grand cru status, like Chambolle Amoureuses. Occasionally a good wine? Yes, if you are lucky. However, I submit thst none of the other GCs that you have mentioned regularly produce as many losers as Clos de Vougeot does. There are more reliable and better premier crus, and I am not referring to the expensive ones. I would rather have d'Angerville's Volnay Clos des Ducs than Clos de Vougeot...and do. Snobbish? Yes, absolutely. Guilty as charged. But I am offering sound, conservative advice to neophytes...

User avatar
Kelly Walker
Posts: 1496
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 7:01 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#62 Post by Kelly Walker » January 17th, 2015, 4:53 pm

Carlos Delpin wrote:I like Jacques Prieur CDV and also the Perrot Minot (Ex Engel vines).
Did Perrot Minot get the Engel vines? I assumed Domaine Eugenie would have got that plot as it was Engel's major holding?
I want to be known by my indulgences.

Nick Gangas
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7474
Joined: August 7th, 2009, 6:27 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#63 Post by Nick Gangas » January 17th, 2015, 5:06 pm

Kelly the answer is yes.

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
Posts: 5528
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#64 Post by Keith Levenberg » January 17th, 2015, 5:22 pm

Klapp is so wrong on this issue that he is practically inviting an asterisk next to his otherwise unimpeachable Piedmont commentary. Of course, for many generations Clos Vougeot was considered the greatest grand cru in Burgundy--which surely overstated things a bit and reflected some British-palate biases, but the fact that this was conventional wisdom for so long is not irrelevant. The fact that there are many producers who make substandard Clos Vougeot is quite irrelevant. Every vineyard in Burgundy that's not blessed with a monopole producer at the top of its game like DRC has poor examples. The question is how the good examples perform, and there are plenty from Clos Vougeot that can compete at the top of the grand cru game, and plenty more not quite at the top but priced sanely enough that they are still worth owning and cellaring.

User avatar
Carlos Delpin
Posts: 1890
Joined: June 13th, 2012, 3:22 am
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#65 Post by Carlos Delpin » January 17th, 2015, 5:33 pm

Kelly Walker wrote:
Carlos Delpin wrote:I like Jacques Prieur CDV and also the Perrot Minot (Ex Engel vines).
Did Perrot Minot get the Engel vines? I assumed Domaine Eugenie would have got that plot as it was Engel's major holding?

Kelly, I am not sure that Perrot Minot bought 100% of the Engel Clos Vougeot holdings but pretty sure that PM bought a large parcel. Maybe Keith can shed some light.

Nick Gangas
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 7474
Joined: August 7th, 2009, 6:27 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#66 Post by Nick Gangas » January 17th, 2015, 5:42 pm

Nick Gangas wrote:Kelly the answer is yes.

oops sorry. I hadn't read the question correctly. Eugenie purchased the Engel estate and they own the vineyards.

User avatar
Mike During
Posts: 2792
Joined: May 25th, 2010, 1:24 am

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#67 Post by Mike During » January 17th, 2015, 5:57 pm

More often than not Clos Vougeot does not show that well in a producers lineup against other GC's or even 1ers. To me a lot more 1ers are more interesting if not better, perhaps it is the size and varying climat in Clos Vougeot that work against it.
"Mike has hit a new low-water mark... I will, however, send Todd a generic indignant PM on my way out, just for good measure." - Barista Bill

P L owet
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 278
Joined: January 9th, 2012, 12:07 pm
Location: Bethesda, MD

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#68 Post by P L owet » January 17th, 2015, 7:59 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:The question is how the good examples perform, and there are plenty from Clos Vougeot that can compete at the top of the grand cru game, and plenty more not quite at the top but priced sanely enough that they are still worth owning and cellaring.
Agree with the 2nd part of this statement, but the 1st part is quite a stretch. For illustration, few would prefer Hudelot-Noellat's CV vs. H-N's Richebourg or RSV. There's a reason that the top wine are 4x the price. However, the CV is good in an absolute sense. That's why I'm glad to own a couple of bottles. The reason I own no RSV is solely price, not relative quality.
Bill Klapp wrote:...If you are going to pay the grand cru freight, you need to get grand cru Burgundy...There are more reliable and better premier crus, and I am not referring to the expensive ones. I would rather have d'Angerville's Volnay Clos des Ducs than Clos de Vougeot...
Your example to demonstrate that 1er crus are better and more sensible purchases is a $250 wine (from arguably the best vineyard in CdB!)??? If you have to try that hard, you're making the case that well-chosen $100 CV is a heckuva deal!

Regards,
Peter
Peter L owet

Gerhard P.
Posts: 5007
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#69 Post by Gerhard P. » January 17th, 2015, 11:29 pm

Bill Klapp wrote: Do the math, Gerhard. Easy to find and cheaper than some 1er crus? Absolutely. Some 1er crus deserving of grand cru status, like Chambolle Amoureuses. Occasionally a good wine? Yes, if you are lucky. However, I submit thst none of the other GCs that you have mentioned regularly produce as many losers as Clos de Vougeot does. There are more reliable and better premier crus, and I am not referring to the expensive ones. I would rather have d'Angerville's Volnay Clos des Ducs than Clos de Vougeot...and do. Snobbish? Yes, absolutely. Guilty as charged. But I am offering sound, conservative advice to neophytes...
Bill,
you should have participated in our Clos Vougeot-tasting last week. The consense was that it was the most balanced and satisfying Burgundy tasting in this group ever - and there were already Richebourg, Chambertin, Montrachet, Vosne-Romanee and others ...

I VERY MUCH doubt that the Amoureuses-tasting that will happen in June will be on an equally high level throughout ... although sure some Vogüe, Mugnier and Roumier should be fine.

>>>There are more reliable and better premier crus, and I am not referring to the expensive ones.

I hope you are not reffering to Clos des Ducs neener or to Cros Parantoux (2 owners) flirtysmile .
I would rather give back the suggestion to do the maths yourself and taste more good Clos Vougeots from fine producers ...
As good as some 1er Crus are (e.g. Malconsorts, Beaumonts, Suchots .... by Hudelot-Noellat) the CV was better definitely - and the same applies to other producers.
To compare with RSV or Rb - two of the best 6 or 7 red GCs is nonsense (reflected also in price) - but compared to many GCs like CdlRoche, Bonnes-Mares, Charmes- Mazoyeres-, Latricieres, Chapelle- ..... -Chambertins, not to speak of Cortons Clos Vougeot is often not only more affordable but also on a higher level.

So I agree with Keith above ... this was not only snobbish, this is highly biased ...
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
paul hanna
Posts: 4910
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 10:14 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#70 Post by paul hanna » January 17th, 2015, 11:36 pm

A Songeur wrote:Paul,
Eugenie? This looks like infanticide as they have only be producing for a few years following Engel passing.

Puzzled by Gerhard about Mugneret Gibourg as I have never had it but everybody tells me they are wonderful (I have 3 bottles in cellar but too young (2006, 2011 and 2012).

I love Grivot Cols Vougeot 2002.
Think '06 was the first vintage.

Young, yes, expensive also, but they seem to show great promise.....

User avatar
Bill Klapp (deactivated)
Posts: 5039
Joined: June 27th, 2009, 12:50 am
Location: Neive, Italy and Burgundy, France

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#71 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » January 18th, 2015, 12:01 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:Klapp is so wrong on this issue that he is practically inviting an asterisk next to his otherwise unimpeachable Piedmont commentary. Of course, for many generations Clos Vougeot was considered the greatest grand cru in Burgundy--which surely overstated things a bit and reflected some British-palate biases, but the fact that this was conventional wisdom for so long is not irrelevant. The fact that there are many producers who make substandard Clos Vougeot is quite irrelevant. Every vineyard in Burgundy that's not blessed with a monopole producer at the top of its game like DRC has poor examples. The question is how the good examples perform, and there are plenty from Clos Vougeot that can compete at the top of the grand cru game, and plenty more not quite at the top but priced sanely enough that they are still worth owning and cellaring.
Keith, you do not deny that there is a sea of bad or underperforming CdV. You say that is irrelevant. I say not. You and Gerhard may have separated the CdV wheat from the formidable chaff for yourselves. God bless you. Make sure that the OP is armed with the names of all of the good ones, because otherwise, CdV is a minefield within the minefield that is Burgundy. In CdV and Echezeaux, the chaff outnumbers the wheat dramatically, and has for some time. Not true of all or most GCs. This thread is not discussing poor examples from EVERY vineyard in Burgundy. It should be discussing good and poor examples in CdV, and that one finds SOME poor examples in other GCs, or that other GCs are more expensive, is the true irrelevance which just diverts focus from the hard-core, bottom-line CdV question.

Gerhard offers the results of his recent tasting. Fair enough. That is useful information. Others, like myself, are not impressed with CdV. There is , and has been, a split of opinion. Ready availability and lower pricing rarely equate to top quality and great bargains in Burgundy, but times, climate and producers change, so I suppose that anything is possible. Thus, I stand by my view overall, and defer to you and Gerhard to direct the OP to what you guys think is great, bargain-priced CdV...

User avatar
jcoley3
Posts: 16689
Joined: January 31st, 2009, 3:31 pm
Location: Kansas City

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#72 Post by jcoley3 » January 18th, 2015, 12:19 am

Bill Klapp wrote:However, I submit thst none of the other GCs that you have mentioned regularly produce as many losers as Clos de Vougeot does. There are more reliable and better premier crus, and I am not referring to the expensive ones. I would rather have d'Angerville's Volnay Clos des Ducs than Clos de Vougeot...and do. Snobbish? Yes, absolutely. Guilty as charged. But I am offering sound, conservative advice to neophytes...
Ah, Leroy. The Gaja of Clos Vougeot.

The "losers" of Clos Vougeot are seldom priced anywhere near the "losers" of Richebourg or Clos de Beze, yet they are comparable in quality, if not quantity. The top wines of the Clos are often comparable to the best of Burgundy, and just as often underpriced. The "losers" may deserve comparisons to top 1ers, and lose again, but your Clos des Ducs comparison holds just as true for lesser Chambertin and Bonnes Mares.

The whole point of this thread is to help a neophyte sort the losers from the winners in the Clos. You are telling him that the mere existence of losers means he should shop elsewhere.

Faulkner wrote many books - including some genuine duds. Joyce penned a few books - all were gems (arguably). If someone asked for a Faulkner recommendation, I wouldn't reply that he should ignore Faulkner because he wrote Requiem for a Nun and steer him towards Ulysses without due consideration of Faulkner's heights.

Would you pan Cannubi because of Chiarlo?
Jim Coley ITB

"So I say, like Ortega y Gasset, that when a lot of people agree on something, it's either a stupid idea or a beautiful woman." - Alvaro Mutis

"You could spend a lot more money, and not get a better Burgundy...” - Carlo Rossi

User avatar
Michelle Baron
Posts: 6
Joined: January 16th, 2015, 9:55 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#73 Post by Michelle Baron » January 18th, 2015, 12:47 am

Yes, Chateau de la Tour VV is available in America at most stores. No need to search on those special nights.

The Classique and the Vieilles Vignes (VV old vines) are between 80-100 years old. The tastes are deep.

User avatar
Michelle Baron
Posts: 6
Joined: January 16th, 2015, 9:55 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#74 Post by Michelle Baron » January 18th, 2015, 12:50 am

I forgot to add that the nature of being organic for Chateau de la Tour and unfiltered enhances the experience for le Classique and VV.

Gary York
Posts: 8011
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 4:02 pm
Location: Richmond, Va.

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#75 Post by Gary York » January 18th, 2015, 1:03 am

Not really sure that I would say they are available at MOST stores. A few stores perhaps. And running in the $120 range. With somewhat mixed, but good reviews.
ITB

User avatar
Bill Klapp (deactivated)
Posts: 5039
Joined: June 27th, 2009, 12:50 am
Location: Neive, Italy and Burgundy, France

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#76 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » January 18th, 2015, 1:28 am

jcoley3 wrote:
Bill Klapp wrote:However, I submit thst none of the other GCs that you have mentioned regularly produce as many losers as Clos de Vougeot does. There are more reliable and better premier crus, and I am not referring to the expensive ones. I would rather have d'Angerville's Volnay Clos des Ducs than Clos de Vougeot...and do. Snobbish? Yes, absolutely. Guilty as charged. But I am offering sound, conservative advice to neophytes...
Ah, Leroy. The Gaja of Clos Vougeot.

The "losers" of Clos Vougeot are seldom priced anywhere near the "losers" of Richebourg or Clos de Beze, yet they are comparable in quality, if not quantity. The top wines of the Clos are often comparable to the best of Burgundy, and just as often underpriced. The "losers" may deserve comparisons to top 1ers, and lose again, but your Clos des Ducs comparison holds just as true for lesser Chambertin and Bonnes Mares.

The whole point of this thread is to help a neophyte sort the losers from the winners in the Clos. You are telling him that the mere existence of losers means he should shop elsewhere.

Faulkner wrote many books - including some genuine duds. Joyce penned a few books - all were gems (arguably). If someone asked for a Faulkner recommendation, I wouldn't reply that he should ignore Faulkner because he wrote Requiem for a Nun and steer him towards Ulysses without due consideration of Faulkner's heights.

Would you pan Cannubi because of Chiarlo?
I am saying only that the high number of producers has led to a high number of losers, and that caution is the order of the day. And whether Leroy is the Gaja of Burgundy or not (and I could make that case!), I do not own any Leroy CdV these days, either, nor any Echezeaux or Grand Echezeaux. I find none of them to be good value in the rarified Burgundy scheme of things. With Leroy CdV, I suggest only that nobody else achieves her quality with any consistency from the vineyard in question. Your Cannubi analogy is probably a fair one, save that a Chiarlo Cannubi likely still trumps the dregs of CdV producers by a decent margin. However, when winners significantly outnumber losers in a given vineyard, the risk of advice like mine is greatly diminished, yes? One bad apple does not spoil the barrel in this discussion; many may for the unwary. I am not objecting to any CdV education that people want to offer, and I do understand thst the mere fact that there is so much of it available is going to draw fans, especially among retailers...

Gerhard P.
Posts: 5007
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#77 Post by Gerhard P. » January 18th, 2015, 2:11 am

Just short since I have concert duties today:

I would recommend any of the following CVs:

Ch de la Tour
Meo-Camuzet
Gerard (former Jean) Raphet (regular and VV)
JJ Confuron
Anne Gros
Michel Gros
Arnoux-Lachaux
Liger-Belair Thibault
Bichot (Clos Frantin)
Hudelot-Noellat
(and sure Leroy)

Also good to very good but not constistent in each vintage (not restricted to their Clos Vougeots):
Grivot
Lamarche
Mongeard-Mugneret
Tortochot
Millot JM
Jadot
Gros F&S
and for many Mugneret-Gibourg is a good choice ..... (for me less)

I have not tasted enough CV to judge about:
d´Eugenie
Vougeraie
Mortet
Prieure-Roch
Drouhin
Drouhin-Laroze
d´Ardhuy
Forey
Prieur
Haegelen-Jayer
Tardy

I would not recommend:
Rebourseau
Bertagna (before 2000)
Varoilles
Gerbet
Louis Latour

This is NOT meant to be comprehensive.

Many of these are not too expensive, at least not off domaine or in Europe ....
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
L e o F r o k i c
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3367
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 12:40 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#78 Post by L e o F r o k i c » January 18th, 2015, 5:23 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:Not sure anybody has equaled the old Engels, Gibourg included, but I've been priced out of Gibourg for a few vintages now. Certainly a different style vs. Engel. Count me as another big fan of Chateau de la Tour.
I've had plenty of great CV's from the bottom of the slope, too. Of course, a lot of the "bottom slope" plots like Jadot's stretch pretty far uphill. And when you walk the vineyard yourself you get a sense of exactly how subtle a slope we're talking about. Suffice to say it doesn't look like Hermitage or the Mosel.
This should illustrate your point.

Image

Image

Image

Image
The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe as its handle was made of wood and they thought it was one of them.

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
Posts: 5528
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#79 Post by Keith Levenberg » January 18th, 2015, 8:41 am

Bill Klapp wrote:Keith, you do not deny that there is a sea of bad or underperforming CdV. You say that is irrelevant. I say not.
There is a lot of bad or underperforming Chambertin, Clos de Beze, Richebourg, Barolo Rionda, etc. etc.

Ian Dorin
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4644
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 12:39 pm
Location: Springfield, NJ

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#80 Post by Ian Dorin » January 18th, 2015, 10:13 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
Bill Klapp wrote:Keith, you do not deny that there is a sea of bad or underperforming CdV. You say that is irrelevant. I say not.
There is a lot of bad or underperforming Chambertin, Clos de Beze, Richebourg, Barolo Rionda, etc. etc.
So sad, and so true.
Too bad I'm not rich enough to change that.
ITB

“I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted.” -WC Fields

Zachy's

User avatar
jcoley3
Posts: 16689
Joined: January 31st, 2009, 3:31 pm
Location: Kansas City

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#81 Post by jcoley3 » January 18th, 2015, 10:14 am

Gerhard P. wrote: Liger-Belair Thibault
Forgot about this one. The 09 is a stunning example of Grand Cru Burgundy, and within that framework was an amazing value.
Jim Coley ITB

"So I say, like Ortega y Gasset, that when a lot of people agree on something, it's either a stupid idea or a beautiful woman." - Alvaro Mutis

"You could spend a lot more money, and not get a better Burgundy...” - Carlo Rossi

User avatar
Bill Klapp (deactivated)
Posts: 5039
Joined: June 27th, 2009, 12:50 am
Location: Neive, Italy and Burgundy, France

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#82 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » January 18th, 2015, 10:21 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
Bill Klapp wrote:Keith, you do not deny that there is a sea of bad or underperforming CdV. You say that is irrelevant. I say not.
There is a lot of bad or underperforming Chambertin, Clos de Beze, Richebourg, Barolo Rionda, etc. etc.
Are you seriously telling me that there is just as much weak wine in EVERY grand cru vineyard as there is in CdV? Really? How are you measuring that one...number of weak producers, number of weak bottles, not measuring at all but just sayin'? And even if I concede that (and I am not prepared to do that, at least not on a "CdV and every other GC vineyard are in the same boat" basis), then line up the TOP producers in every GC vineyard and see how CdV shakes out with that yardstick. I will be honest with you, my heart is not into a fight to the death on this one (unless Todd locked the 'excessibe balla" thread). I was happy with a few of you trying to help the OP find some decent CdV at a reasonable price. However, when the thread takes a "CdV is the greatest of all grand crus" bent, I gots to see bushels of hard evidence to back that up, and more importantly, to overcome the bushels already out there for years which head in the opposite direction...

User avatar
A. So
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2969
Joined: July 19th, 2011, 7:58 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#83 Post by A. So » January 18th, 2015, 10:58 am

Ian Dorin wrote:
Keith Levenberg wrote:
Bill Klapp wrote:Keith, you do not deny that there is a sea of bad or underperforming CdV. You say that is irrelevant. I say not.
There is a lot of bad or underperforming Chambertin, Clos de Beze, Richebourg, Barolo Rionda, etc. etc.
So sad, and so true.
Too bad I'm not rich enough to change that.
Reminds me of this picture Bill Nanson put up on Facebook of a herbicided plot of Batard opposite the healthy plot of Prieur's Montrachet: Image
エaイdドrリiアaンn (93 pts.)

Ian Dorin
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 4644
Joined: January 27th, 2009, 12:39 pm
Location: Springfield, NJ

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#84 Post by Ian Dorin » January 18th, 2015, 11:06 am

Bill Klapp wrote:
Keith Levenberg wrote:
Bill Klapp wrote:Keith, you do not deny that there is a sea of bad or underperforming CdV. You say that is irrelevant. I say not.
There is a lot of bad or underperforming Chambertin, Clos de Beze, Richebourg, Barolo Rionda, etc. etc.
Are you seriously telling me that there is just as much weak wine in EVERY grand cru vineyard as there is in CdV? Really? How are you measuring that one...number of weak producers, number of weak bottles, not measuring at all but just sayin'? And even if I concede that (and I am not prepared to do that, at least not on a "CdV and every other GC vineyard are in the same boat" basis), then line up the TOP producers in every GC vineyard and see how CdV shakes out with that yardstick. I will be honest with you, my heart is not into a fight to the death on this one (unless Todd locked the 'excessibe balla" thread). I was happy with a few of you trying to help the OP find some decent CdV at a reasonable price. However, when the thread takes a "CdV is the greatest of all grand crus" bent, I gots to see bushels of hard evidence to back that up, and more importantly, to overcome the bushels already out there for years which head in the opposite direction...
He was only implying that there are plenty of other great vineyards with dog producers. He didn't qualify it. And he doesn't need to either.
ITB

“I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted.” -WC Fields

Zachy's

User avatar
jcoley3
Posts: 16689
Joined: January 31st, 2009, 3:31 pm
Location: Kansas City

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#85 Post by jcoley3 » January 18th, 2015, 11:11 am

Bill,

I would agree that the volume of relatively mediocre wine is higher in the Clos. I would argue that those wines, along with the sheer size of the vineyard, have actually dragged down the reputation of the best wines of Clos de Vougeot. At their best, they belong on the same table as the best of Burgundy, though I would not argue that they surpass the best of say, RSV or Richebourg. The quality gap is still, in my opinion, miniscule in comparison to the gap in their pricing.
Jim Coley ITB

"So I say, like Ortega y Gasset, that when a lot of people agree on something, it's either a stupid idea or a beautiful woman." - Alvaro Mutis

"You could spend a lot more money, and not get a better Burgundy...” - Carlo Rossi

Gerhard P.
Posts: 5007
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#86 Post by Gerhard P. » January 18th, 2015, 1:39 pm

Bill Klapp wrote:
Keith Levenberg wrote:
Bill Klapp wrote:Keith, you do not deny that there is a sea of bad or underperforming CdV. You say that is irrelevant. I say not.
There is a lot of bad or underperforming Chambertin, Clos de Beze, Richebourg, Barolo Rionda, etc. etc.
Are you seriously telling me that there is just as much weak wine in EVERY grand cru vineyard as there is in CdV? Really? .......
Bill, this isn´t relevant.
You´ve stated that the only CV worth buying/drinking is by Leroy, and this is simply NOT true.

I have listed a good lot of fine CV producers above - and if you say that the CVs by
Ch de la Tour
Meo-Camuzet
Gerard Raphet
JJ Confuron
Anne Gros
Michel Gros
Arnoux-Lachaux
Liger-Belair Thibault
Bichot (Clos Frantin)
Hudelot-Noellat
..... (others)
are not on the Grand Cru level you are making a fool out of yourself ....

I´m really not sure if there aren´t more disapointing producers (measured in ha owned) in Charmes-Chambertin, in Bonnes-Mares, even in Chambertin itself than in Clos Vougeot ...
... but even IF this is not the case: the best examples of CV can certainly compete with the best Charmes-Chambertin, Bonnes-Mares and other GCs ... you may like it or not.
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

Gerhard P.
Posts: 5007
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#87 Post by Gerhard P. » January 18th, 2015, 1:51 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
Bill Klapp wrote:Keith, you do not deny that there is a sea of bad or underperforming CdV. You say that is irrelevant. I say not.
There is a lot of bad or underperforming Chambertin, Clos de Beze, Richebourg, Barolo Rionda, etc. etc.
Keith,
agree - with the exception of Richebourg.
Please name an underperforming producer of Richebourg (negociants excluded)!

DRC ?
Leroy ?
Grivot ?
Meo-Camuzet ?
Anne Gros ?
Gros F&S ?
A-F Gros ?*
Mongeard-Mugneret ?*
Hudelot-Noellat ?
Liger-Belair Thibault ?
Clos Frantin (Bichot) ?

Maybe the two with the * are not top-notch, but nevertheless fine wines in top-vintages, if not really consistant.
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

Gary York
Posts: 8011
Joined: April 26th, 2010, 4:02 pm
Location: Richmond, Va.

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#88 Post by Gary York » January 18th, 2015, 1:55 pm

Wish I had the money to find the answer here.
ITB

User avatar
Bill Klapp (deactivated)
Posts: 5039
Joined: June 27th, 2009, 12:50 am
Location: Neive, Italy and Burgundy, France

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#89 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » January 18th, 2015, 2:21 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
Bill, this isn´t relevant.
You´ve stated that the only CV worth buying/drinking is by Leroy, and this is simply NOT true.

I have listed a good lot of fine CV producers above - and if you say that the CVs by
Ch de la Tour
Meo-Camuzet
Gerard Raphet
JJ Confuron
Anne Gros
Michel Gros
Arnoux-Lachaux
Liger-Belair Thibault
Bichot (Clos Frantin)
Hudelot-Noellat
..... (others)
are not on the Grand Cru level you are making a fool out of yourself ....

I´m really not sure if there aren´t more disapointing producers (measured in ha owned) in Charmes-Chambertin, in Bonnes-Mares, even in Chambertin itself than in Clos Vougeot ...
... but even IF this is not the case: the best examples of CV can certainly compete with the best Charmes-Chambertin, Bonnes-Mares and other GCs ... you may like it or not.
And I may believe it...or not. Explain how it is not relevant to compare the merits and shortcomings of one GC vineyard to the others. All are Pinot Noir. Some consistently produce better wines than others, albeit never all producers and never all vintages. You do not help your argument by measuring CdV against other perennially underperforming GCs like Charmes and Bonnes-Mares, Gerhard. I understand that you are enthusiastic about CdV, especially after your recent tasting, and it is possible that your lengthy list of producers may be capable of producing GC level wine on occasion, but I doubt that readers of this thread will be rushing to their retailers and keyboards first thing tomorrow morning to buy it all up, any more than they did before this thread was started.

I expressed my opinion. I am sure that it is not literally true that Leroy is the only CdV worth drinking, and I am sure that there are bad Chambertin producers as well, but I see no convincing evidence of many other GCs hitting CdV's lows, nor any evidence that CdV's top wines are going to go toe to toe with the best of an overwhelming majority of the other GCs. They are less expensive, but that, in and of itself, may be taken as a measure of the esteem in which the wines are held by the marketplace and the reviewers, as well as a selling point for CdV. If I stick to Leroy's wines alone (and Leroy is not my favorite Burgundy producer, by the way), her CdV might compare favorably to her1er crus but rarely any of her other grand crus. How does Meo's CdV compare to his Richebourg or Vosne-Romanees? As I said, you do the OP and others a service by sharing your opinions on CdV, especially in the wake of your recent tasting, which I readily concede is both more current and more comprehensive than anything I have to offer. However, you now seem to have adopted the snobbish tone that you accused me of. I am a fool because I do not embrace your opinions? Not a chance. Your opinions are your opinions. They are several among many on this thread...

User avatar
Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 6908
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#90 Post by Mark Golodetz » January 18th, 2015, 8:23 pm

jcoley3 wrote:Bill,

I would agree that the volume of relatively mediocre wine is higher in the Clos. I would argue that those wines, along with the sheer size of the vineyard, have actually dragged down the reputation of the best wines of Clos de Vougeot. At their best, they belong on the same table as the best of Burgundy, though I would not argue that they surpass the best of say, RSV or Richebourg. The quality gap is still, in my opinion, miniscule in comparison to the gap in their pricing.


Clos Vougeot is unique because so much of the hill hill is classified Grand Cru. Every other hill that claims some Grand Cru in Cote de Nuits is nicely divided into village, premier and grand crus. CV therefore contains far more crappy portions than the others, hence the higher proportion of sub par wines. Your question is whether the better parcels are capable of producing wines that are the equal of a Chambertin, a Musigny etc. From my experience, the best CV, even Leroy, Meo and MG produces wines at a Latriciere level.
ITB

User avatar
Claus Jeppesen
Posts: 1866
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 2:42 am

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#91 Post by Claus Jeppesen » January 19th, 2015, 1:28 am

Dominique Laurent produces a rather fine Clos de Vougeot VV Sui Generis. Just thougt it rewards mentioning here.
Foreys version is fine QPR IMO
Claus

Riesling and Slate

Barry L i p t o n
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3096
Joined: November 8th, 2009, 8:59 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#92 Post by Barry L i p t o n » January 19th, 2015, 3:58 am

Winning an arguement seems far more important than merely sharing a perspective to some . Sad to see the thread degenerate into something no longer enjoyable to read, and great diluting the informational value.

Gerhard P.
Posts: 5007
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#93 Post by Gerhard P. » January 19th, 2015, 5:38 am

Bill Klapp wrote:
And I may believe it...or not. Explain how it is not relevant to compare the merits and shortcomings of one GC vineyard to the others. All are Pinot Noir.
IMHO it is not relevant how many producers of a Cru produce mediocre wine as long as SOME are making fine wines - the latter is the proof that the site is capable of GC quality - the failures might be due to bad viniculture, to high yields, bad winemaking, bad clones, too young vines, bad selection etc. - and in the case of CV there are sure major differences between upper, middle and lower parts (and the many good and bad producers)....
It is definitely a sign of the high quality of the CV terroir that Leroy makes top-wines from sites in the upper AND lower part .... but nobody in Burgundy can produce better quality than the terroir - in the best case - is capable of delivering.
Quite a few people here have stated that they have had wines of high quality from CV - so I´m by far not alone with my opinion.

I´ve never said and would never say that CV is on the same quality level than
Romanee-Conti
La Romanee, La Tâche
Musigny, Chambertin (incl. Clos de Beze)
RSV, Richebourg

... but I repeat my opinion that it can produce wines equal or better than all other GCs - at least the better examples can ... but it is simply not consistent due to the different elevations and high number of producers.
Many other GCs are also not consistent ... even not Musigny and Chambertin, but for me CV belongs definitely to the 2nd level (of 3 or 4) of the red GCs.

I had my fair share of disapointing GCs from ALL vineyards - and that includes the 7 listed above - as well as from the top 1er crus often said to be of GC-quality like Amoureuses, Clos St.Jacques, Les St.Georges, Malconsorts etc - with the exception of Cros Parantoux (of which I unfortunately had not enough for my passion - and never a Jayer CP [head-bang.gif] !
Bill Klapp wrote: How does Meo's CdV compare to his Richebourg or Vosne-Romanees?


As far as I´m concerned - and I´m no Meo-specialist - I´d estimate his CV below the Rb and Cros Parantoux, equal (but different) to his Echezeaux and above the Cortons and the other 1er Crus (never have had his Brulees).
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

Peter Chiu
Posts: 3871
Joined: January 28th, 2011, 1:39 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#94 Post by Peter Chiu » January 19th, 2015, 5:46 am

paul hanna wrote:
A Songeur wrote:Paul,
Eugenie? This looks like infanticide as they have only be producing for a few years following Engel passing.

Puzzled by Gerhard about Mugneret Gibourg as I have never had it but everybody tells me they are wonderful (I have 3 bottles in cellar but too young (2006, 2011 and 2012).

I love Grivot Cols Vougeot 2002.
Think '06 was the first vintage.

Young, yes, expensive also, but they seem to show great promise.....
Paul.....agree again. Great promise....specially his Ech [cheers.gif]

Gerhard P.
Posts: 5007
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#95 Post by Gerhard P. » January 19th, 2015, 5:49 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
jcoley3 wrote:
Clos Vougeot is unique because so much of the hill hill is classified Grand Cru. Every other hill that claims some Grand Cru in Cote de Nuits is nicely divided into village, premier and grand crus. CV therefore contains far more crappy portions than the others, hence the higher proportion of sub par wines. Your question is whether the better parcels are capable of producing wines that are the equal of a Chambertin, a Musigny etc. From my experience, the best CV, even Leroy, Meo and MG produces wines at a Latriciere level.
Mark,
reg. Chambertin, Musigny etc. please see above.
Latricieres is so different in character from CV that it´s hard to compare, but e.g. at Arnoux-L I prefer the CV to his Latricieres (but at the same time I prefer his Suchots to his CV, which is IMHO due to the exceptional situation on top of the vineyard and the old vines).
Otherwise I agree completely - and a fine Latricieres is as well a worthy Grand Cru as a fine CV.
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
Mark Golodetz
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 6908
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 8:49 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#96 Post by Mark Golodetz » January 19th, 2015, 6:14 am

Gerhard,

I think we are basically in agreement.

My problem with Clos Vougeot is that my favorite versions (Leroy, Hudelot, MG etc) tend to have a very pronounced house signatures, and unlike Latriciere, Chapelle and other excellent second tier Grand Crus, I cannot discern a Clos Vougeot marker.

On a different note, I am always somewhat underwhelmed by Meo CVs. Any vintage which might make me change my mind?
ITB

Gerhard P.
Posts: 5007
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#97 Post by Gerhard P. » January 19th, 2015, 7:26 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:Gerhard,

I think we are basically in agreement.

My problem with Clos Vougeot is that my favorite versions (Leroy, Hudelot, MG etc) tend to have a very pronounced house signatures, and unlike Latriciere, Chapelle and other excellent second tier Grand Crus, I cannot discern a Clos Vougeot marker.

On a different note, I am always somewhat underwhelmed by Meo CVs. Any vintage which might make me change my mind?
Mark,
for me typical fine CV shows a dark red berried fruit with on one hand a certain plumminess, but also hints of heart cherries, sometimes strawberries, with age an interesting earthiness, sometimes mushrooms, not really elevated =decent acidity, good mouthfiling qualities (kind of chewy) and excellent but not really powerful structure. The impression in its youth is often solid, fullbodied, long but soft, with very nice complexity and sweetness when fully mature.
The Clos Frantin 1971 was a very fine mature example.

I don´t think Hudelot-Noellat has a house-style that overwhelms the terroir.
On the other hand I would be interested how you define the "marking" of a Chapelle-Chambertin ... [scratch.gif]

>>Meo CVs. Any vintage which might make me change my mind?

E.g. I have very much enjoyed the 1997 in autumn, but the last bottle was corked unfortunately.
The 2005 was very impressive, will be great, but is still far too young.
A friend was very impressed by the 2012, but I haven´t had it myself.
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

Peter Chiu
Posts: 3871
Joined: January 28th, 2011, 1:39 pm

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#98 Post by Peter Chiu » January 19th, 2015, 7:47 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:Gerhard,

I think we are basically in agreement.

My problem with Clos Vougeot is that my favorite versions (Leroy, Hudelot, MG etc) tend to have a very pronounced house signatures, and unlike Latriciere, Chapelle and other excellent second tier Grand Crus, I cannot discern a Clos Vougeot marker.

On a different note, I am always somewhat underwhelmed by Meo CVs. Any vintage which might make me change my mind?

Same here.....Meo was never one of my fav CVs.

A Songeur
Posts: 1040
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 6:45 am

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#99 Post by A Songeur » January 19th, 2015, 7:48 am

Peter Chiu wrote:
paul hanna wrote:
A Songeur wrote:Paul,
Eugenie? This looks like infanticide as they have only be producing for a few years following Engel passing.

Puzzled by Gerhard about Mugneret Gibourg as I have never had it but everybody tells me they are wonderful (I have 3 bottles in cellar but too young (2006, 2011 and 2012).

I love Grivot Cols Vougeot 2002.
Think '06 was the first vintage.

Young, yes, expensive also, but they seem to show great promise.....
Paul.....agree again. Great promise....specially his Ech [cheers.gif]
Echezeaux matures quicker than CV, so, if Echezeaux looks very promising, then one can be hopeful for CV.
I personally have drunk mainly Grivots which are very satisfying.
Antoine

User avatar
Rick Dalia
Posts: 760
Joined: June 2nd, 2012, 4:00 pm
Location: Mill Valley, CA

Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#100 Post by Rick Dalia » January 19th, 2015, 8:32 am

Something that has probably already been mentioned, but Vougeot is priced according to it's reputation and in that way I appreciate that I CAN afford bottles from the top producers (Leroy excluded) in Gerhard's list and score some truly Grand Cru wine. The debate about the percentage of great vs bad producers will go on for ages, but this is a site where the happy hunter can thrive.

Besides, In a world where we (not me, though) continue to pay thousands of dollars for top GC white Burgundy that will be poured down the sink in 6 years, Clos de Vougeot doesn't sound so silly.

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”