Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

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Gerhard P.
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Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#101 Post by Gerhard P. » January 19th, 2015, 8:40 am

Rick Dalia wrote:Something that has probably already been mentioned, but Vougeot is priced according to it's reputation and in that way I appreciate that I CAN afford bottles from the top producers (Leroy excluded) in Gerhard's list and score some truly Grand Cru wine.....
YES, and Bill is driving the reputation still downhill - good for buyers. neener

But another reason: a 50 ha vineyard is definitely less rare than a 8 ha vineyard (Richebourg) - and a 0.85 ha vineyard (La Romanee) ... and rarity is also a price issue ...
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Bill Klapp (deactivated)
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Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#102 Post by Bill Klapp (deactivated) » January 19th, 2015, 9:00 am

Gerhard, Domaine d' Eugenie has all of 8 vintages under its belt. Domaine Chateau de la Tour has much more experience, but was ignored by reviewers and drinkers alike because, until very recently, its wines not only smelled of shit, like all great Burgundy should per Mr. Hanson, but tasted of shit as well. I did a little homework, and it does seem that Eugenie is off to a good start and Chateau de la Tour has had a good decade or so (if you enjoy toasty oak), but beyond that, even with quality winemakers like Meo, Grivot and others, performance has been hit or miss, and not really chinning the bar of the top-tier grand crus, nor some of the top-tier premier crus, either. I agree with Mark regarding signatures (and yes, I readily concede that Leroy CdV is possessed of a mighty signature) and Rick's point makes as much sense as anything in this thread, as price is CdV's strongest selling point. And Barry, there is no argument to win here, as far as I am concerned...and as much as I like to argue! People are free to take CdV on its own terms, whatever its strengths and weaknesses. As I said before, Gerhard and others have presented a number of producers that they enjoy for all to consider. If you like, I will go further and advise that people do NOT run out and buy grossly overpriced Leroy CdV, regardless of whether I think that it is tasty or not. I do not see how it hurts anyone to suggest that other grand cru vineyards, most more expensive than CdV and many considerably so, produce better Burgundy than CdV. It is a hard fact...

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Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#103 Post by Ian Dorin » January 19th, 2015, 11:46 am

Rick Dalia wrote:Something that has probably already been mentioned, but Vougeot is priced according to it's reputation and in that way I appreciate that I CAN afford bottles from the top producers (Leroy excluded) in Gerhard's list and score some truly Grand Cru wine. The debate about the percentage of great vs bad producers will go on for ages, but this is a site where the happy hunter can thrive.

Besides, In a world where we (not me, though) continue to pay thousands of dollars for top GC white Burgundy that will be poured down the sink in 6 years, Clos de Vougeot doesn't sound so silly.
part of me wishes that Bill's sentiments held more water to cause a price drop on wines from CV that I like to drink (not to mention, make them more available!)
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Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#104 Post by A Songeur » January 19th, 2015, 12:40 pm

Sell! Sell!... Clos Vougeot is total rubbish... Just level with Chorey les Beaune at best...
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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#105 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » June 30th, 2020, 4:31 am

Friends,

Many underperforming RICHEBOURGS? You must be joking. Practically all owners are in a sound competition to produce the best version of this wine. Even PARKER thought so in his tome on BURGUNDY. Where CLOS DE VOUGEOT is concerned : my personal favorite comes from THE GRAND MAUPERTUI section. Definitely Grand Cru. it is often ANNE GROS' best wine even outperforming her RICHEBOURG. MILLLOT also makes excellent wine from this site. Look it up : you won't be disappointed.
SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#106 Post by Jan-Willem van der Hek » June 30th, 2020, 5:22 am

Really love the recent ('16/17's) Clos de Vougeot from Coquard-Loison Fleurot. Relatively good value (€ 125 ex tax,- in Holland)

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#107 Post by Carl Steefel » July 1st, 2020, 10:20 am

C 0 R E Y M. wrote:
January 16th, 2015, 7:52 am
Keith Levenberg wrote:Not sure anybody has equaled the old Engels, Gibourg included, but I've been priced out of Gibourg for a few vintages now. Certainly a different style vs. Engel. Count me as another big fan of Chateau de la Tour.
I've had plenty of great CV's from the bottom of the slope, too. Of course, a lot of the "bottom slope" plots like Jadot's stretch pretty far uphill. And when you walk the vineyard yourself you get a sense of exactly how subtle a slope we're talking about. Suffice to say it doesn't look like Hermitage or the Mosel.
I haven't walked the vineyard, but supposedly the effects as you go downslope aren't just about exposition; the soil character changes, with deeper soil, and less limestone and more clay, and the drainage isn't as good at the bottom. Not that you can't make great wine from there -- there are excellent lower-slope village and 1er cru wines in other villages (and even grand crus in Gevrey) -- but it would suggest that there's perhaps less potential for greatness.

That said, I'd rather have a downslope wine made by a great farmer/winemaker than an upslope wine made by a poor one. A tasting in the cellar of a good producer who has plots in various sectors (Meo or Leroy for example), if they fermented and elevaged them separately, would be veeeerry interesting.
This is what I thought was the issue. It turns to more clay-rich soil, and therefore more poorly drained.

And even if the slope does not change dramatically, it is still the bottom of the slope, not the top. Given that the water runs down the hydraulic gradient, the water from the top has to go through this zone, so it will tend to be somewhat wetter... Or restated, initially the water table will be parallel to the land surface, but as it tries to level out, the water table will drop more at the top, while at the bottom it could rise (unless reversed by evapo-transpiration).
Last edited by Carl Steefel on July 1st, 2020, 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

Robert Sand
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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#108 Post by Robert Sand » July 1st, 2020, 11:24 am

This thread has been sleeping for 5 years, only recently been awakening, but equally
for 5 years I had many fine CdV, among them 1985 CV (Grand Maupertuis) Jean Gros and 1991 Hudelot-N. recently

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#109 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » July 6th, 2020, 1:25 am

Friends,

I totally agree with GERHARD and must ask Keith : underperforming RICHEBOURG????? Where?????. Judging de Clos de Vougeot : lots of brilliant wines. Of course with over 80 versions of the wine :lots of underachievers too. It's what makes BURGUNDY so fascinating : look for the good producers and eliminate the bad ones. But do not say that all CLOS VOUGEOT does not merit GC status.
SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#110 Post by Howard Cooper » July 6th, 2020, 7:29 am

Of the producers I have tried, my favorite CVs come from Mugneret-Gibourg and Hudelot-Noellat. I can remember several Faiveleys from the 1970s that also were fabulous, but I have not had any of their CV in a very long time.
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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#111 Post by Greg K » July 6th, 2020, 7:51 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 7:29 am
Of the producers I have tried, my favorite CVs come from Mugneret-Gibourg and Hudelot-Noellat.
I agree, these are my favorites as well.
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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#112 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » July 6th, 2020, 8:25 am

Gaudissabois Johan wrote:
July 6th, 2020, 1:25 am
Friends,

I totally agree with GERHARD and must ask Keith : underperforming RICHEBOURG????? Where?????. Judging de Clos de Vougeot : lots of brilliant wines. Of course with over 80 versions of the wine :lots of underachievers too. It's what makes BURGUNDY so fascinating : look for the good producers and eliminate the bad ones. But do not say that all CLOS VOUGEOT does not merit GC status.
SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#113 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » July 31st, 2020, 8:20 am

Friends,

In order to blow new life into the discussion concerning CLOS VOUGEOT : during my recent visit to the region I had a wonderful CLOS 2019 from VICOMTE LIGER BELAIR and an even more exciting version from JJ CONFURON (also from the 2019 vintage). The latter domaine so-to-speak sharing its vineyards with LEROY (RSV and CLOS) and HUDELOT-NOELLAT (RSV and CLOS) all three originating from the CHARLES NOELLAT estate. Does 2019 look promising or what???? Wonderful wines also ffrom HUDELOT-BAILLLET at Chambolle and the underestimated ROBERT SIRUGUE-domaine in Vosne.
Sincerely JOHAN

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#114 Post by Dennis Borczon » July 31st, 2020, 8:59 am

reviving this thread reminds me that I would pay a modest premium to read Bill Klapps thoughts on the modern Burgundian market. I would also pay for a cage match between the Klapper and William Kelley. Better viewing than Conor McGregor.

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#115 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » July 31st, 2020, 9:24 am

I would love to see a Klapp-Kelley debate, let's get the management to do it in the "special wine guests" forum so Klapp doesn't have to break his moratorium here.

I envision Kelley being scrupulously polite and thoughtful and Klapp becoming increasingly unhinged and coming up with more and more inventive insults.

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#116 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » July 31st, 2020, 9:37 am

William leading off with stuff like "Without wishing to be gratuitously pedantic..." which would make Bill want to reach through the screen and strangle him.

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#117 Post by William Kelley » July 31st, 2020, 11:37 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 9:37 am
William leading off with stuff like "Without wishing to be gratuitously pedantic..." which would make Bill want to reach through the screen and strangle him.
[rofl.gif]

My golden rule for maintaining civility on the internet is in fact to delete any sentence I've written that begins "without wishing to disparage x "

Bill was spot on about how to decant old Nebbiolo, though, I must say.
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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#118 Post by Nick Gangas » July 31st, 2020, 9:05 pm

William Kelley wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 11:37 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 9:37 am
William leading off with stuff like "Without wishing to be gratuitously pedantic..." which would make Bill want to reach through the screen and strangle him.
[rofl.gif]

My golden rule for maintaining civility on the internet is in fact to delete any sentence I've written that begins "without wishing to disparage x "

Bill was spot on about how to decant old Nebbiolo, though, I must say.
He sure did.

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Re: Clos de Vougeot -- Who Makes the Best?

#119 Post by asnitow » August 1st, 2020, 6:49 pm

Henry Kiichli wrote:
January 16th, 2015, 3:10 am

A 93 Jadot was excellent a couple of years ago, and older Grivot have given a lot of pleasure.
I also had an outstanding bottle of '93 Jadot CV several years ago that more than held its own with some very esteemed company on the table. Was a great bottle of wine. '96 had quite recently wasnt at the same level, but was still a very tasty wine.
alan snitow

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