Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19373
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#51 Post by Alan Rath » December 15th, 2014, 11:42 am

Eric Lundblad wrote:I've pulled corks from these and there weren't any issues. None of the corks were pushed up. The seal was tight and required the expected amount of resistance to insert the cork screw and pull the cork.
But could they be unusually porous, even though they have good strength otherwise?
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
scott c
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2176
Joined: December 29th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: NYC

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#52 Post by scott c » December 15th, 2014, 1:27 pm

Corey Miller wrote:If people are reporting the same problem on bottles in Switzerland, it can't be a shipping/import issue.

Has seepage been a problem for any of the other producers who bottle with some CO2, like Fourrier?
How would one tell with the wax covering it?

I have a 6-pack of 2010 H-N pending from PC. I guess I'll probably take delivery and decide what to do at that point?
c 1 @ f f e e

"By serving the best, never the most, a host compliments both himself and guest, and compensates with additional enjoyment what he wisely limits in number of drinks."
-Julian P. ("Pappy") Van Winkle, Sr.

User avatar
PaulM
Posts: 701
Joined: April 29th, 2010, 7:30 am
Location: DC

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#53 Post by PaulM » December 15th, 2014, 2:09 pm

Craig G wrote:
Paul Marquardt wrote:
jflegler wrote:PC didn't contact me
Nor me. GCs too?
They didn't say anything to me until I asked to pick up the wines. Do you already have yours?
I'll have to check records (I would have done a bulk transfer to offsite storage), but I don't think so. Anyway, very helpful info - I appreciate it.

I did see the report of affected CV, but if anyone has word on the Richebourg or RSV I'd appreciate it.

Yeah. Ouch.
M a r q u a r d t

Chae Yi
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3242
Joined: July 8th, 2009, 8:22 am

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#54 Post by Chae Yi » December 15th, 2014, 3:36 pm

I posted on this about a month ago. I got 3 btls of '10 Murgers, and all have seepage.... I kept them on faith, knowing that the noodly spaghetti monster has my back.

Fred C
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2618
Joined: July 11th, 2011, 10:09 am

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#55 Post by Fred C » December 15th, 2014, 4:25 pm

Noticed this with all my 2010 HN Chambolle. Opened 3-4 of them. There was no seepage on the outside but the corks were stained 50-90%. Fills were high so I chalked it up to high fills/over fill. Corks also seemed a bit softer to me versus other corks? Wines all tasted fine.
Ch!3n

Oliver McCrum
Posts: 1799
Joined: August 5th, 2010, 11:11 am
Location: Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#56 Post by Oliver McCrum » December 15th, 2014, 5:16 pm

Eric Lundblad wrote: PC was unaware of the problem early on in their H-N shipments. I pointed the problem out to them, which they were unaware of, when I picked up my bottles. They immediately offered to take back bottles that I didn't want. They also checked their reefer transport reports, and the temp was in the expected range during the entire shipment from Europe.

I find it very hard to believe that CO2, not from an active fermentation, could cause this without the wine heating up.
What is a 'reefer transport report,' I wonder?
Oliver McCrum
Oliver McCrum Wines

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19373
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#57 Post by Alan Rath » December 15th, 2014, 5:25 pm

Oliver McCrum wrote:What is a 'reefer transport report,' I wonder?
What the captain of the Exxon Valdez was doing [wow.gif]
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

Jon Burdick
Posts: 16
Joined: July 8th, 2011, 10:18 am

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#58 Post by Jon Burdick » December 15th, 2014, 5:51 pm

What is a reefer transport report?

Most likely a Partlow Chart (or electronic version) of temperature and time, for the duration of the transportation in the reefer container. Carriers use this to defend against claims of temperature deviation.

User avatar
Scot H.
Posts: 453
Joined: April 2nd, 2011, 12:19 pm
Location: DC/Alexandria, VA

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#59 Post by Scot H. » December 15th, 2014, 8:33 pm

Ian Fitzsimmons wrote:Scott: how was the fill on the seeping bottle, compared with the other HN bottles?
All the fills were very high. So perhaps cases were shipped and shaken up. CO2 and a less perfect cork?
@$$elm@n

User avatar
Scot H.
Posts: 453
Joined: April 2nd, 2011, 12:19 pm
Location: DC/Alexandria, VA

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#60 Post by Scot H. » December 15th, 2014, 8:44 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:Screw the Hudelot, I want to try one of those Bouchards.
Good spot. 64 Monty and Cdl Mousse. champagne.gif
@$$elm@n

Oliver McCrum
Posts: 1799
Joined: August 5th, 2010, 11:11 am
Location: Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#61 Post by Oliver McCrum » December 15th, 2014, 9:11 pm

Jon Burdick wrote:What is a reefer transport report?

Most likely a Partlow Chart (or electronic version) of temperature and time, for the duration of the transportation in the reefer container. Carriers use this to defend against claims of temperature deviation.
We just request a certain temperature and hope they do it, unless you include a recording thermometer, or pay for one to be included.

Nothing against any of these shipments, but our warehouse tells us that almost all of the containers they unload aren't reefers, which I find amazing.
Oliver McCrum
Oliver McCrum Wines

Todd A. Christensen
Posts: 93
Joined: November 22nd, 2011, 9:49 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#62 Post by Todd A. Christensen » December 15th, 2014, 9:27 pm

scott c wrote:
Corey Miller wrote:If people are reporting the same problem on bottles in Switzerland, it can't be a shipping/import issue.

Has seepage been a problem for any of the other producers who bottle with some CO2, like Fourrier?
How would one tell with the wax covering it?

I have a 6-pack of 2010 H-N pending from PC. I guess I'll probably take delivery and decide what to do at that point?
Right re the wax, but I've not seen these issues with Fourrier corks.

Brian Bohr
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 332
Joined: June 1st, 2009, 5:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#63 Post by Brian Bohr » November 8th, 2015, 1:52 pm

Took delivery of three Vosne (village) and three NSG Murgers from PC last week. They were very upfront about the condition of the bottles. All six bottles arrived showing puffed capsules and various amounts of seepage stains.

Opened the worst looking Vosne yesterday. Removed the capsule to find dried wine stains along the bottle's lip and the cork was stained from top to bottom. Wine was very disappointing with a stewed quality to it as if it suffered from heat damage.

So time to double down, opened the worse looking Murgers. Worse ullage than the Vosne. Removed the capsule to find the top of the cork wet - as in still leaking. Cork soaked and stained from top to bottom. Feared the worst, however, the wine turned out to be lovely. Did not taste anything wrong with it - a very enjoyable wine. Never would have guessed it came from a bottle that was leaking.

Plan to play the lottery with the four remaining bottles in the very near term and hope for the best.
ITB (at least part time)

User avatar
Robert Grenley
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1087
Joined: November 23rd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#64 Post by Robert Grenley » November 8th, 2015, 10:46 pm

Has anyone noted any such seepage problems with their 2012's?
Just ordered 3 bottles of their VR suchots.
I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff.
-Bob Dylan

"...what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it."

User avatar
BrianMarshall
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 742
Joined: June 3rd, 2013, 10:13 am
Location: Western Mass

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#65 Post by BrianMarshall » November 9th, 2015, 3:45 am

Robert Grenley wrote:Has anyone noted any such seepage problems with their 2012's?
Just ordered 3 bottles of their VR suchots.
None here.
CT: WMWG

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
Posts: 5446
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#66 Post by Keith Levenberg » November 9th, 2015, 6:36 am

Brian Bohr wrote:Opened the worst looking Vosne yesterday. Removed the capsule to find dried wine stains along the bottle's lip and the cork was stained from top to bottom. Wine was very disappointing with a stewed quality to it as if it suffered from heat damage.
I don't think it's heat. I think that's more likely just oxidation from the seal not being able to hold the wine. And I'm inclined to think the reason for it is CO2 in the wine. The only thing I can't figure out is why all the other producers who bottle with heavy CO2 aren't experiencing the same thing.

Ian Fitzsimmons
Posts: 2900
Joined: August 3rd, 2010, 7:17 am

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#67 Post by Ian Fitzsimmons » November 9th, 2015, 7:20 am

I just took delivery of my PC order of '10 Murgers: two with distended capsules, four look perfectly normal. Will open one and report before too long.

User avatar
D@v1dZ
Posts: 3490
Joined: December 14th, 2009, 6:49 am

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#68 Post by D@v1dZ » November 9th, 2015, 7:23 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
Brian Bohr wrote:Opened the worst looking Vosne yesterday. Removed the capsule to find dried wine stains along the bottle's lip and the cork was stained from top to bottom. Wine was very disappointing with a stewed quality to it as if it suffered from heat damage.
I don't think it's heat. I think that's more likely just oxidation from the seal not being able to hold the wine. And I'm inclined to think the reason for it is CO2 in the wine. The only thing I can't figure out is why all the other producers who bottle with heavy CO2 aren't experiencing the same thing.
FWIW I've seen it on some Fourrier which I know to be pristine. Obviously not remotely to the level of what's going on with the 2010 H-Ns, but increased dissolved gas at bottling does seem to put additional stress on the cork.

R. Frankel
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1699
Joined: January 24th, 2014, 11:07 pm

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#69 Post by R. Frankel » November 9th, 2015, 7:57 am

My H-N '13s (Mixed case of Village and 1ers) arrived with no obvious visual defects, though haven't opened any. Hopefully these problems have been addressed.

Sadly don't have any '10s. One '09 getting delivered this week, will inspect when it arrives.
Rich Frankel

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
Posts: 5446
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#70 Post by Keith Levenberg » November 9th, 2015, 8:27 am

None of my 2012 Murgers had raised corks or seepage when they arrived, but some of them do now.

User avatar
scott c
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2176
Joined: December 29th, 2009, 9:26 am
Location: NYC

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#71 Post by scott c » November 9th, 2015, 8:40 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:None of my 2012 Murgers had raised corks or seepage when they arrived, but some of them do now.
Uh-oh. That sounds like a sign of a larger problem at H-N. I don't like the idea that it may develop later, after one has already taken delivery of normal-looking bottles.
c 1 @ f f e e

"By serving the best, never the most, a host compliments both himself and guest, and compensates with additional enjoyment what he wisely limits in number of drinks."
-Julian P. ("Pappy") Van Winkle, Sr.

User avatar
Robert Grenley
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1087
Joined: November 23rd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#72 Post by Robert Grenley » November 9th, 2015, 9:18 am

scott c wrote:
Keith Levenberg wrote:None of my 2012 Murgers had raised corks or seepage when they arrived, but some of them do now.
Uh-oh. That sounds like a sign of a larger problem at H-N. I don't like the idea that it may develop later, after one has already taken delivery of normal-looking bottles.
Yes, that is a little disconcerting, particularly in light of how much money we are spending on these wines, and particularly so at the grand cru level. Perhaps if everyone returned these bottles to their retailer who in turn returned them to the distributor, the word would get back to H-N that there are some problems out there. Of course, this would be more difficult if the seepage is developing after a period of time post-delivery...though maybe not if it was in the early months.
I started out on Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff.
-Bob Dylan

"...what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it."

john stimson
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3317
Joined: January 24th, 2010, 8:11 pm
Location: seattle

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#73 Post by john stimson » November 9th, 2015, 1:24 pm

Has anyone checked with the estate?

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 17182
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#74 Post by John Morris » November 9th, 2015, 2:05 pm

Oliver McCrum wrote:Nothing against any of these shipments, but our warehouse tells us that almost all of the containers they unload aren't reefers, which I find amazing.
This is a wine-only or temperature-controlled warehouse, I take it?
"English doesn't just borrow foreign words, it stalks languages down dark alleyways, knocks them over and then rifles their pockets for new words." -- @Another NPC on YouTube

Oliver McCrum
Posts: 1799
Joined: August 5th, 2010, 11:11 am
Location: Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#75 Post by Oliver McCrum » November 9th, 2015, 3:06 pm

Yes, which is why it's so weird. Wine-only, temperature-controlled, as are their trucks.
Oliver McCrum
Oliver McCrum Wines

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 17182
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#76 Post by John Morris » November 9th, 2015, 3:16 pm

I won't ask you to disclose who their other customers are.
"English doesn't just borrow foreign words, it stalks languages down dark alleyways, knocks them over and then rifles their pockets for new words." -- @Another NPC on YouTube

Oliver McCrum
Posts: 1799
Joined: August 5th, 2010, 11:11 am
Location: Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#77 Post by Oliver McCrum » November 9th, 2015, 3:59 pm

Thank you.
Oliver McCrum
Oliver McCrum Wines

User avatar
dcornutt
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 10029
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 4:19 pm

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#78 Post by dcornutt » November 16th, 2015, 5:43 am

He bottles with a fair amount of dissolved CO2. Minimal racking. Fills are also very high.
DON Cornutt

"Before you eat or drink anything, carefully consider with whom you eat or drink rather than what you
eat or drink,because eating without a friend is the life of the lion or the wolf." Epicurius

EricG
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 677
Joined: January 25th, 2010, 10:36 pm

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#79 Post by EricG » November 16th, 2015, 4:14 pm

Just received my 13s. All look OK so far but will keep and eye on them. All my 10s that had seepage drank wonderfully but did not save any for aging so not sure the longer term effects.
G = G_e_r_b_e_r

patrick c albright
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 629
Joined: July 26th, 2009, 9:53 am
Location: bend/napa

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#80 Post by patrick c albright » November 16th, 2015, 4:55 pm

John Morris wrote:
Oliver McCrum wrote:Nothing against any of these shipments, but our warehouse tells us that almost all of the containers they unload aren't reefers, which I find amazing.
This is a wine-only or temperature-controlled warehouse, I take it?
Where is this warehouse - CA, NJ/NY, or over in France?
ITB

Oliver McCrum
Posts: 1799
Joined: August 5th, 2010, 11:11 am
Location: Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#81 Post by Oliver McCrum » November 17th, 2015, 3:13 pm

patrick c albright wrote:
John Morris wrote:
Oliver McCrum wrote:Nothing against any of these shipments, but our warehouse tells us that almost all of the containers they unload aren't reefers, which I find amazing.
This is a wine-only or temperature-controlled warehouse, I take it?
Where is this warehouse - CA, NJ/NY, or over in France?
Near Napa. So the wines have been shipped from Europe, or perhaps from South America.
Oliver McCrum
Oliver McCrum Wines

Ian Fitzsimmons
Posts: 2900
Joined: August 3rd, 2010, 7:17 am

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#82 Post by Ian Fitzsimmons » November 17th, 2015, 4:10 pm

dcornutt wrote:He bottles with a fair amount of dissolved CO2. Minimal racking. Fills are also very high.
I recall Jean-Marie Fourrier saying, on I'll Drink to That, that he bottles with some CO2 as a preservative, allowing him to work with relatively low sulfur dosing. Keith has commented several times on the trend in Burgundy of bottling with some CO2 still dissolved in the wine.

I'd imagine wines with conventional corks and bottled CO2 would be especially sensitive to slight variations in temperature; more so with a high initial fill. Escape of CO2 under pressure, because of a slight increase in temperature, would fit with raised capsules and modest liquid seepage, without much cork extrusion.

Dean Alexander
Posts: 13
Joined: November 27th, 2013, 3:29 pm

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#83 Post by Dean Alexander » November 19th, 2015, 2:48 pm

A couple of notes:
1) leaking bottles from top producers who overfill their bottles, particularly Leroy who has maintained this practice for well over 20 years, is well documented. The producers know this happens, and feel the risk of bottling with a lower ullage is much great risk than leakage. Pierre Yves Colin Morey, also bottles this way, and people are always freaking out about a little leak here and there. If there is any temperature fluctuation, even from a cool cellar to a little warmer cellar, they will leak. A little leaking can cause mold to grow.

Another reason for overfilling is the bottles actually hold more that 750 ml if filled to what would be considered a normal fill. An actual 750ml fill will often look short (and a normal person would suspect it had leaked when in fact it actually holds exactly 750ml) Consider the huge expense of deliberately overfilling when you are talking about very expensive wine.... This is a cost the producers are willing to bare.

A very small amount of leakage can happen on the bottling line. When the cork is pressed in, sometimes wine will shoot up the sides of the cork, and lie on top. On top of this tiny bit of wine, the capsule will be placed, and the capsule spinner will seal the deal. I saw this fairly often when I worked at David Bruce.

I work for the west coast importer of Hudelot. While I hadn't heard of this issue, I don't doubt these wines a are filled on the high side with high levels of CO2 as a preservative so they can go with a lower SO2 level. This is a common practice now among many producers. Like I said in the beginning, leakage is common, and to some degree can be expected.

I don't know what Oliver McCrums "warehouse guy" is seeing, but they are not seeing any of our containers, which never go through Napa. They go straight from the Oakland Port (in the refrigerated shipping container they came across in) to our temperature controlled warehouse, with no stops in between.

In anycase, these Hudelot wines are remarkably well-priced given the very small quantity produced and the exceptionally demand, we are squeezed very tight for every bottle that we can get.

I feel that cork that has had minor leakage has no direct bearing on the condition of the wine inside. It should make you look for oxidation that is excessive of the year it was produced, but it should not make you concerned that it's all ruined, and the producer is now making faulty wine.

Oliver McCrum
Posts: 1799
Joined: August 5th, 2010, 11:11 am
Location: Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#84 Post by Oliver McCrum » November 19th, 2015, 4:09 pm

Dean Alexander wrote: I don't know what Oliver McCrums "warehouse guy" is seeing, but they are not seeing any of our containers, which never go through Napa. They go straight from the Oakland Port (in the refrigerated shipping container they came across in) to our temperature controlled warehouse, with no stops in between.
Dean,

If you read my original post, there was no suggestion that your wine was included. It was the manager of a large professional wine warehouse, incidentally, not a 'warehouse guy'.
Oliver McCrum
Oliver McCrum Wines

User avatar
Keith Levenberg
Posts: 5446
Joined: June 6th, 2009, 3:11 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#85 Post by Keith Levenberg » November 19th, 2015, 7:30 pm

Thanks for posting, Dean. Since you haven't encountered the issue yourself yet, though, I don't think you've understood completely what people experienced here. It's not just a case of bottles being given higher than normal fills. My bottles, at least, have normal headspace - nothing like we see in Leroy or Raveneau or other notorious overfillers. And it's not leakage on the bottling line, either. The leakage that occurred *after* my bottles were put in my 57° cellar, combined with the bubbled capsules, suggests some pressure from the inside - surely CO2, unless anyone has any other ideas. FWIW, I opened one of the leakers and it was fine. But I wouldn't be so comfortable over the long term. If there is wine leaking out of the bottle, then there is wine exposed to air. I want to give my Burgundies serious age, so that is an issue. I don't have a lot of money invested in this (my only 2010 Hudelots are the Murgers, bought dirt-cheap) but I really dislike the trend of gassy Burgundies, and if this is going to be one of the side effects I think it's good to get it out there.

User avatar
Claus Jeppesen
Posts: 1789
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 2:42 am

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#86 Post by Claus Jeppesen » November 20th, 2015, 7:29 am

Here is a just opened 2009 Chambolle Village
http://rs1283.pbsrc.com/albums/a556/C_J ... 0&fit=clip
Cork soaked and sticky under foil
Fwiw it seem a bit CO2 influenced, but this will hopefully blow off
Sorry but my tablet Berserker UI does not support embedded photos??!
Claus

Riesling and Slate

Dean Alexander
Posts: 13
Joined: November 27th, 2013, 3:29 pm

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#87 Post by Dean Alexander » November 20th, 2015, 12:49 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:Thanks for posting, Dean. Since you haven't encountered the issue yourself yet, though, I don't think you've understood completely what people experienced here. It's not just a case of bottles being given higher than normal fills. My bottles, at least, have normal headspace - nothing like we see in Leroy or Raveneau or other notorious overfillers. And it's not leakage on the bottling line, either. The leakage that occurred *after* my bottles were put in my 57° cellar, combined with the bubbled capsules, suggests some pressure from the inside - surely CO2, unless anyone has any other ideas. FWIW, I opened one of the leakers and it was fine. But I wouldn't be so comfortable over the long term. If there is wine leaking out of the bottle, then there is wine exposed to air. I want to give my Burgundies serious age, so that is an issue. I don't have a lot of money invested in this (my only 2010 Hudelots are the Murgers, bought dirt-cheap) but I really dislike the trend of gassy Burgundies, and if this is going to be one of the side effects I think it's good to get it out there.
Yes, I think it might well be a side effect of the process. But it also may be the fermentation of unfermentable sugars. From a funkier age, I had a 1969 Remoissent Grand Cru red Corton that had an extremely low fill (low shoulder) and lots of evident leakage. It was an absolutely beautiful bottle in pristine condition, despite its decrepit looks. The CO2 had completely protected the wine from oxidation. If wine is escaping under pressure from CO2, air will not enter the bottle until the pressure of the CO2 is exhausted. As long as the cork is elastic enough to reseal, there should not be a major problem. However, if it is caused by a significantly funky fermentation, it can lead to off flavors and aromas. That would just depend on the bacteria acting on the wine. Like I think you said you did, I'd open a low fill and check the cork condition, and be on the lookout for any flaws. It it all checks out, I'd age the rest, opening low fills at intervals if you continue to be concerned.

User avatar
William Kelley
Posts: 1704
Joined: June 4th, 2014, 1:36 am
Location: London, Calistoga & Beaune

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#88 Post by William Kelley » November 20th, 2015, 1:02 pm

Has anyone written Charles on this subject? I don't know him.
The Wine Advocate

User avatar
Claus Jeppesen
Posts: 1789
Joined: April 27th, 2010, 2:42 am

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#89 Post by Claus Jeppesen » November 20th, 2015, 1:33 pm

Fyi: the above mentioned 2009 Village was really great
Last edited by Claus Jeppesen on November 20th, 2015, 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Claus

Riesling and Slate

Eric Lundblad
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 1777
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 2:36 pm

Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#90 Post by Eric Lundblad » November 20th, 2015, 6:09 pm

Last year, when the issue with the 2010's were first being discovered, Premier Cru sent a couple of bottles to tested (cultured for organisms)...since the issue could have been re-fermentation in the bottle. They sent the 10 HN CM village wine and the Murgers and the tests came back clean on both bottles (I saw a copy of the lab results). So that should give some assurance. I've opened several bottles and they've been in perfect shape as well (I'm quite picky/sensitive about flaws).

PC deserves credit for eating the cost of the 2 bottles, the cost of the lab tests and testing before resuming delivering to folks.
Ladd Cellars
Winemaker & Owner

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19373
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#91 Post by Alan Rath » November 29th, 2018, 5:08 pm

Dean Alexander wrote:
November 19th, 2015, 2:48 pm
I work for the west coast importer of Hudelot. While I hadn't heard of this issue, I don't doubt these wines a are filled on the high side with high levels of CO2 as a preservative so they can go with a lower SO2 level. This is a common practice now among many producers. Like I said in the beginning, leakage is common, and to some degree can be expected.
Just pulled two bottles of H-N Clos Vougeot from my locker storage because they were leaking, so brought this thread back. That makes 3 bottles total of this particular wine. The first was drunk as soon as I found it, and seemed to be fine, though way too young. These two will get drunk over the holidays.

But, if what Dean says is true, that really pisses me off. CO2 is NOT a preservative, and winemakers who use it excessively in hopes of that being true is a travesty - particularly if it contributes to leaky bottles.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

Eric Lundblad
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 1777
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 2:36 pm

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#92 Post by Eric Lundblad » November 29th, 2018, 6:50 pm

I don't understand how bottling with high CO2 would cause a bottle to leak years later tho. Something has to be happening to cause it to leak...right? Also...I agree with your comments on bottling with high CO2 (just don't see how that's related to current leaking)
Ladd Cellars
Winemaker & Owner

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 19373
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#93 Post by Alan Rath » November 29th, 2018, 7:04 pm

Eric Lundblad wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 6:50 pm
I don't understand how bottling with high CO2 would cause a bottle to leak years later tho. Something has to be happening to cause it to leak...right? Also...I agree with your comments on bottling with high CO2 (just don't see how that's related to current leaking)
I guess if there is added pressure inside the bottle, and an otherwise good seal, it's more likely to leak than a non-pressurized bottle? Jeff at Rhys explained why they had some problems with certain 2013 bottles, if I recall a problem pulling vacuum before inserting the cork, which would be equivalent to adding additional pressure with CO2, no?
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
alan weinberg
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 12054
Joined: April 25th, 2009, 1:23 pm

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#94 Post by alan weinberg » November 29th, 2018, 8:36 pm

Ian Fitzsimmons wrote:
November 17th, 2015, 4:10 pm
I recall Jean-Marie Fourrier saying, on I'll Drink to That, that he bottles with some CO2 as a preservative, allowing him to work with relatively low sulfur dosing. Keith has commented several times on the trend in Burgundy of bottling with some CO2 still dissolved in the wine.
those who believe CO2 in the bottle protective against oxidation and allowing lower sulfur levels have missed the science lessons of Don Cornwell. In short, it’s totally wrong.

David Morris
Posts: 87
Joined: October 9th, 2011, 4:38 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#95 Post by David Morris » November 30th, 2018, 3:39 am

alan weinberg wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 8:36 pm
those who believe CO2 in the bottle protective against oxidation and allowing lower sulfur levels have missed the science lessons of Don Cornwell. In short, it’s totally wrong.
Doesn't Jean-Marie Fourrier do just this? Not saying it is right, but he is of the belief it is.

User avatar
alan weinberg
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 12054
Joined: April 25th, 2009, 1:23 pm

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#96 Post by alan weinberg » November 30th, 2018, 6:48 am

David Morris wrote:
November 30th, 2018, 3:39 am
alan weinberg wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 8:36 pm
those who believe CO2 in the bottle protective against oxidation and allowing lower sulfur levels have missed the science lessons of Don Cornwell. In short, it’s totally wrong.
Doesn't Jean-Marie Fourrier do just this? Not saying it is right, but he is of the belief it is.
according to Don, it’s Fourrier and LeMoine who do this.

Eric Lundblad
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 1777
Joined: January 28th, 2009, 2:36 pm

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#97 Post by Eric Lundblad » November 30th, 2018, 10:35 am

As long as CO2 is being produced in a wine in barrel, the CO2 in the barrel's head space will protect it from oxidation (cuz the co2 pushes the O2 out).

The other situation is bubbling a gas through a wine (Nitrogen or Argon are most common for this, but sometimes CO2 is used). Usually when the wine is in tank, and is bubbled from the bottom of the tank. The bubbling forces dissolved oxygen out of solution and lowers the dissolved oxygen levels of the wine. If the bubbling is fast enough, it will mix the wine in tank, so this is a common thing to do leading up to bottling...usually referred to as 'rolling a tank'.

CO2 is solution is an acid, and lower pH wines are less prone to oxidation...but I believe CO2's effect on pH is negligible at best. Do you have any numbers to attach to this Alan?

Other than that, having high levels of CO2 in solution in a wine has no impact on oxygen levels in wine. All in all, high co2 at bottling isn't a strategy to use lower sulfur levels.

'Interesting' side note: Bubbling Nitrogen through wine will also lower the dissolved co2 levels. Some wineries will bubble 'beer gas' through their wines prior to bottling...usually for whites. Beer gas is 70% nitrogen & 30% CO2. So, as you bubble it, the nitrogen knocks co2 out, but the co2 in the beer gas will add it back in. Roll a tank with beer gas long enough and you'll get a small amt of CO2 evenly mixed, which will enhance the acid perception of a wine. I've seen this done...my whites have plenty of acid (+ not a fan of co2 in a still wine...all the way or nothing!).
Ladd Cellars
Winemaker & Owner

User avatar
John J
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 243
Joined: November 19th, 2015, 5:02 am
Location: Tampa Bay

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#98 Post by John J » February 14th, 2020, 7:15 am

Was anyone opened a ‘10 Murgers with seepage lately? Curious to how these are aging.
J. Johnson

User avatar
Mason H
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 192
Joined: June 30th, 2010, 10:13 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#99 Post by Mason H » February 14th, 2020, 12:13 pm

I've opened two lately. Both were overfilled and both were showing beautifully! I see no reason to sit on these and my guess is they are ready to drink earlier than usual because of the fill issue.
Mason Hewitt

George Chadwick
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3289
Joined: July 7th, 2009, 9:33 pm

Re: Hudelot-Noellat 2010 Bottle Problems

#100 Post by George Chadwick » February 14th, 2020, 12:41 pm

Premier Cru isn't returning my calls.

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”