Do You Like Bordeaux Styled Super Tuscans (No Sangiovese)

Do You Like Bordeaux Styled Super Tuscans (No Sangiovese)

  • 1. Yes
  • 2. No

0 voters

If yes, which is your favorite? Thanks.

Iā€™ve not voted, as although I like some, I have a general preference for Sangiovese.

Not cheap, but Ornellaia can be stunningly good and the 1998 was a wine that made a really lasting impression. I was less taken by Tignanello when I tried it.

Not Bdx styled, but Iā€™ll also put in a good work for Isole e Olena / Paolo di Marchi collezione syrah. The 1994 (a seemingly poor vintage) was a really stunning wine for my tastes. We have a few bottles of a more recent vintage and Iā€™m trying to keep my mitts off them.

regards
Ian

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I am generally opposed, based on deeply held philosophical principles, but when I do drink an Italian Bordeaux blend, I make an exception for Pupille Saffredi, Giusto di Notre, and Orma. I donā€™t like Cab, Merlot, or Syrah blended with Sangiovese.

I also refuse to call them Super.

I prefer Ultra, Uber, or Bitchinā€™ Tuscans.

Love me some Montevertine.

Wait, whatā€™s the question?

I did not vote either as I felt none of the alternatives would be correct, or I could have voted either but with a lot of qualifications. Itā€™s not a category Iā€™m a big fan of, but I know the area fairly well and will throw my opinion in.

Two reasons why Iā€™m luke warm: 1 I am not particularly fond of Cabernet. 2 Iā€™m really quite critical of the state of Tuscan winemaking. The fraction of producers making genuine transparent wine is small. There is a lot of formulaic and manipulative winemaking and catering to real or perceived marketā€™s and criticā€™s taste.

That said there is good wine to be found, and a few really great ones.

Iā€™m uncertain if the OP means he wants no Sangiovese in the blends, only Bdx varieties, or not? In any case, I find it useful to distinguish between blends that have a good percentage of Sangiovese and those that have a low percentage or are purely Bdx varieties. The former category I find less interesting and my knowledge is not deep. Castellā€™in Villaā€™s Santacroce would be a very good example, probably one of the best.

In the second category I prefer wines with only Bdx varieties, Iā€™ll take my Sangiovese ā€˜in purezzaā€™ or blended with small percentages of local varieties. That said, Sangiovese is easily overpowered in a Bdx blend, yet can still bring a faint yet particular local flavor and heightened acidity that is not to be disdained.

So, Tuscan Bdx blends. It all starts with Sassicaia and what has grown up from and around of it, the Bolgheri Doc. Sassicaia has remained fairly austere, it is probably the most collectible Italian wine and needs time. I would not buy at todayā€™s price but the wine merits. Ornellaia I find too big and massive and overworked, not a fan. The rest of the DOC suffers from aforementioned problems, prices that do not reflect the quality and soils that are interesting only in parts of the appellation. Grattamacco is very fine and elegant from older vintages, those made by the original proprietor, prior to 2000(?). The only winery I personally like and would buy today is Le Grascete. Good terroir, a transparent style, decent value.

A lot of Chianti and Brunello producers make a Cabernet or Bdx blend as well. Iā€™m sure others can chime in with good examples, I am not too well versed and mostly less than impressed. There are also other smaller areas known for growing Cabernet for a long time, the most famous Carmignano. Cannot particularly recommend any. Then there are the areas near the coast to the North and South of Bolgheri. These have seen a lot of growth and new plantings the last 15 years, there are some interesting wines and a few solid producers, but on the whole Iā€™m not impressed.

Iā€™ll end with two wines I consider great, world class. One is from Suvereto just to the south of Bolgheri, but labeled Toscana Rosso: Gabbro from Montepeloso. A stunning wine of depth, power, minerality and elegance. By far the best wine from the coast and absolutely world class Cabernet. Not cheap. (Disclaimer: The proprietor/winemaker is a friend, no other ties or relations.) Then there is the Caberlot from Il Carnasciale. Small production from a lesser know area, a hilltop in Mercatale Valdarno to the east of the Chianti Classico zone, only sold in mags. Somewhat of a cult wine, but merits tracking down. Made from a crossing, of Merlot and CF, or a mysterious mutation the winery claims is unique to them. Whatever the case, the wine is a triumph of depth and elegance, very fine and particular. Again not cheap. Both these two wines are definitive vins de terroir and vins de garde.

(I should also mention Tenuta di Trinoro. Again from an unknown area to the east, Sarteano south of Montepulciano. Definitely great and impressive wines. Iā€™m not too enamored with the style or consistency, and prices of top cuvees are exaggerated, but it belongs on the list.)

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I have enjoyed the Galatrona (100% merlot) from Petrolo.
And to me, it speaks of Tuscany.
I would not say that about many of the other so-called Super Tuscans I have tasted.

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To T. M.'s point: Petrolo sits on the same hill below Il Carnasciale. I find it a winery that perfectly exemplifies manipulative Tuscan winemaking.

Apart from the fact the two wines are in different leagues in terms of quality and price, a side-by-side tasting would be very illustrative.

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Not a big fan. I find a few that I like and a few that I can tolerate. Occasionally a syrah or two. Depending on the vintage. On the whole, they are not super and they are not Tuscan. But for the most part, in Tuscany, Sangiovese above all else. Some good ones:

Tua Rita Rosso di Notri
Tua Rita Redigaffi
Castello dei Rampolla Sammarco
Isole e Olena Syrah
Buondonno Campo Ai Ciliegi
Ten. Luigi dā€™ Alessandro Podere il Bosco Syrah

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I agree they are not super on the whole. That they are not Tuscan is BS. Sure theyā€™re not Chianti or Brunello, but some areas have grown Bdx varieties for 100+ years and a lot of areas along the coast are better suited to Bdx varieties than Sangiovese.

But this thread is developing in a pretty funny way. Tua Rita sits just below Montepeloso on the same little hill (though Montepeloso now has vineyards on the other side of the valley as well). Montepeloso and Tua Rita side-by-side would be another very good illustration of honest and genuine vs. manipulative winemaking, prices are also similar.

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Iā€™ve found that I actually prefer Italian Merlot over Merlot from most other places in the world.

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While I donā€™t buy and drink that many, it seems like some parts of Tuscany producer really good cabs, syrah, and especially merlot. I definitely donā€™t have any ideological opposition to it; itā€™s not like they stopped producing Chianti and Brunello in order to make those wines.

I love them. Especially Bolgheri. My face is probably Le Macchiole Paleontology as itā€™s. More affordable than Ornellaia or Sassicaia.

2001 Avignonesi Cortona Desiderio is a wonderful example.

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Too bad Rick James never made one. Could have been. Superfreak Tuscan.

Good Tuscan Cabernet Franc is a treat.

Voted no. I love Bordeaux and California Cabernet, but kind of feel that Italy has a long and rich tradition of its own and that the world loses something when Italy plants what I might call international varietals.

Syrah has become very well-established around Cortona, Iā€™ve had some good examples.

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I voted yes because of a small number of wines. As much as I love Sassicaia, I couldnā€™t vote no. I dislike the vast majority. The better ones, though, show that when not overripe or overwhelmed by oak, these Bordeaux grapes express their sense of place VERY clearly when grown in the right parts of Tuscany. I think thatā€™s really nice. They are very much unlike their counterparts from elsewhere (until fully mature, at least). I donā€™t need multigenerational tradition to think itā€™s okay to grow whatever grapes in a place other than their ā€œhomeā€ as long as there is reason for doing so.

I understand the sentiment, Howard. Luckily Bdx or other international varieties have not supplanted local varieties on a large scale, Italy still has an enormous diversity in indigenous varieties.

In the Nort-East, Friuli in particular, Bdx varieties have been grown for 150+ years, if Iā€™m not mistaken. At a certain point what is traditional and what is imported becomes blurred or changed by the passing of time and generations. On the other hand, a big chunk of the diversity of Friulian variaties has been lost as a result of this. Pity, because among what is left, some recently rescued from extinction, are some cracking and particular varieties.

uh, yeahā€¦I am not kicking any Sassicaia from my bed!

I share your views, Doug. In the right areas and as important in the right hands some really great and distinctive wines can be made. This from someone whoā€™s partial to Sangiovese and not fond of Cabernet, even less Merlot. Also, most of the coastal areas being planted or expanded the past 20-30 years had no history of high quality viticulture. They were blank slates, what was there was mostly scarce house wine peasants made for personal consumption. Varieties were Sangiovese and Montepulciano plus the usual lineup of minor Tuscan blending varieties. Montepulciano thrives but is not being planted, Sangiovese can be ok but generally does better with more altitude, Bdx varieties seem to adapt very well. Not just adapt like these genetically strong varieties easily do, but showing distinctiveness and expressing place.

Iā€™ll share a little anecdote, certain to scare the daylight out of Sangiovese fans :wink:. A consulting enologist I know and respect, not one of the itinerant chemicals pushers, has a bent for Bordeaux wine. He works in southern and central Tuscany for the most part. His personal belief is wherever a good to great wine is made in a Tuscan vineyard, even in Montalcino, a better wine could have been made if the vineyard were planted to Cabernet(!)