Traditional vs. Modern Barolo / Barbaresco

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#351 Post by Kevin Harvey » April 15th, 2017, 8:41 pm

I recently visited Fiorenzo Nada and I would definitely not characterize their current winemaking as modern. All cuvees except one (Rambone) showed minimal oak influence. They are raised in large Botte. The textures are elegant. I thought the wines were terrific and quite pure.
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#352 Post by Rich Salsano » April 16th, 2017, 12:24 am

This thread has been nothing short of an amazing source of information. I'm currently wrapping up a couple of days in Piemonte and had tastings at Paolo Scavino, Oddero, Vietti and Josetta Saffirio and have also had a number of other nice bottles at dinners and enotecas.
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#353 Post by Pat Burton » April 16th, 2017, 5:16 am

Kevin Harvey wrote:I recently visited Fiorenzo Nada and I would definitely not characterize their current winemaking as modern. All cuvees except one (Rambone) showed minimal oak influence. They are raised in large Botte. The textures are elegant. I thought the wines were terrific and quite pure.
I'll look into this when I have moment
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#354 Post by Pat Burton » April 16th, 2017, 5:16 am

Rich Salsano wrote:This thread has been nothing short of an amazing source of information. I'm currently wrapping up a couple of days in Piemonte and had tastings at Paolo Scavino, Oddero, Vietti and Josetta Saffirio and have also had a number of other nice bottles at dinners and enotecas.
I'm very glad you've found it useful.
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#355 Post by Ian Sutton » April 16th, 2017, 6:53 am

Pat Burton wrote:
Kevin Harvey wrote:I recently visited Fiorenzo Nada and I would definitely not characterize their current winemaking as modern. All cuvees except one (Rambone) showed minimal oak influence. They are raised in large Botte. The textures are elegant. I thought the wines were terrific and quite pure.
I'll look into this when I have moment
and his son is now making wines under the Danilo Nada name, though I don't know what the oak / fermentation regime is. It could be the same as they still work together at Fiorenzo Nada, but sometimes the offspring venture out to experiment.
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#356 Post by Pat Burton » April 16th, 2017, 6:57 am

Kevin Harvey wrote:I recently visited Fiorenzo Nada and I would definitely not characterize their current winemaking as modern. All cuvees except one (Rambone) showed minimal oak influence. They are raised in large Botte. The textures are elegant. I thought the wines were terrific and quite pure.
Ok, I reviewed this winery. They make two Barbaresco wines. The Rombone sees Barrique use while the Manzola does not. I moved Fiorenzo Nada to variable by wine with notes on each of these two. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
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#357 Post by Pat Burton » April 16th, 2017, 7:57 am

Ian Sutton wrote:
Pat Burton wrote:
Kevin Harvey wrote:I recently visited Fiorenzo Nada and I would definitely not characterize their current winemaking as modern. All cuvees except one (Rambone) showed minimal oak influence. They are raised in large Botte. The textures are elegant. I thought the wines were terrific and quite pure.
I'll look into this when I have moment
and his son is now making wines under the Danilo Nada name, though I don't know what the oak / fermentation regime is. It could be the same as they still work together at Fiorenzo Nada, but sometimes the offspring venture out to experiment.
Can't find any info on Danilo Nada. I will add him to the list though under information not available.
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#358 Post by Ian Sutton » April 16th, 2017, 9:58 am

Yes, I did a little web search (and failed as well), but I think this is the first release so no website / material yet.
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#359 Post by James Billy » April 16th, 2017, 12:11 pm

Nada!

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#360 Post by Kevin Harvey » April 16th, 2017, 12:47 pm

Pat Burton wrote:
Kevin Harvey wrote:I recently visited Fiorenzo Nada and I would definitely not characterize their current winemaking as modern. All cuvees except one (Rambone) showed minimal oak influence. They are raised in large Botte. The textures are elegant. I thought the wines were terrific and quite pure.
Ok, I reviewed this winery. They make two Barbaresco wines. The Rombone sees Barrique use while the Manzola does not. I moved Fiorenzo Nada to variable by wine with notes on each of these two. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Pat,
They also make a Barbaresco Montaribaldi (my favorite 2013) and a Langhe Nebbiolo (crazy deal at 14 Euro) and neither has barrique influence. According to Danilo, only the Rambone sees some barrique in the first year before going to cask.
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#361 Post by Pat Burton » May 23rd, 2017, 8:30 am

updated
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#362 Post by Matt Latuchie » May 26th, 2017, 6:53 am

Interesting quote from speaking with Guiseppe Vajra the other day on how to figure out who are modern vs. traditional producers, "All you need to do is see who produces Freisa. Those are the traditionalists. Not to say that this is a perfect list, but merely a list of producers that must be included within the traditional producer discussion."

Most producers abandoned the varietal a while back and planted Nebbiolo in its place. He contends that the people that have stuck with it value tradition. I thought his quote would be interesting to share with the community.

Using his logic, the list would include:

Giuseppe Rinaldi
G.D. Vajra
Bartolo Mascarello
Comm. G.B. Burlotto
Giacomo Brezza
Cavallotto

Seems appropriate to me.
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#363 Post by Glenn L e v i n e » May 26th, 2017, 7:24 am

That is a terrific quote and easy distinction to appreciate.
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#364 Post by Murray Stiles » July 9th, 2017, 10:24 pm

Another modernist Barbaresco producer for the list - Rivella Silvia

Basically started out as a retirement project for former Gaja winemaker, ended up a small family commercial winery.

The use 4-8 year old barriques almost exclusively, with some tonneaux.

Photo I took in the cellar:
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#365 Post by Pat Burton » July 10th, 2017, 7:40 am

Thanks for the info. The list is updated.
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#366 Post by Andrew Hamilton » August 6th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Hi Pat. I was doing some research into Piero Busso as it came recommended and it appears that they're not full traditional. According to their web site the Piero Busso Barbaresco San Stunet ageing regime is as follows.
Ageing: 18 months in wood ( 70% large oak barrel – 30% barrique)
So I'm not sure where that would land them (Lean traditional or Variable by individual wine?) but I wouldn't expect them to be considered traditional with 30% barrique usage on their San Stunet. That said I could be wrong.

The URL where this information was found is below.
http://www.bussopiero.com/index.php?opt ... 57&lang=en
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#367 Post by Pat Burton » August 7th, 2017, 4:30 am

Andrew Hamilton wrote:Hi Pat. I was doing some research into Piero Busso as it came recommended and it appears that they're not full traditional. According to their web site the Piero Busso Barbaresco San Stunet ageing regime is as follows.
Ageing: 18 months in wood ( 70% large oak barrel – 30% barrique)
So I'm not sure where that would land them (Lean traditional or Variable by individual wine?) but I wouldn't expect them to be considered traditional with 30% barrique usage on their San Stunet. That said I could be wrong.

The URL where this information was found is below.
http://www.bussopiero.com/index.php?opt ... 57&lang=en
Thanks for the info Andrew. I will confirm and edit as soon as I have a moment.
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#368 Post by Gunnar L » August 7th, 2017, 6:45 am

Hi Pat

I must say that I am really enjoying this thread. Me and my wife will be in the area in September and this information will really be of great value to us.

I am missing a few producers in the list (please excuse me if I am wrong). Not quite sure how to categorize them.

Marco Bonfante, Nizza Monferrato. Have only tried the Barolo normale 2012 which we really liked. At the time I compared it to the Luigi Pira Serralunga 2012.

http://www.marcobonfante.com/

Runchet. A small, quite new, producer in Cappelletto, Treiso, close to Orlando Abrigo. I'm not sure but beleive that their Barolo 2012 was the first released vintage of B&B. Uses old barriques bought from Elio Altare.

http://www.runchet.it/en/index.php

Bersano, Nizza Monferrato. I have never visited nor tasted their Barolo/Barbaresco.

http://www.bersano.it/
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#369 Post by Pat Burton » August 7th, 2017, 6:58 am

Thank you for the kind words Gunnar. I will take a look at these producers and add them to the list!
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#370 Post by Joshua Kates » December 4th, 2017, 3:37 am

Glad to find this again; had some producers I wanted to check. Thanks again Pat, for the great work!

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#371 Post by Kirk.Grant » December 5th, 2017, 3:55 am

This is a really helpful list...Thank you.
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#372 Post by Pat Burton » December 5th, 2017, 5:53 am

you're both quite welcome.
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#373 Post by Jeff Vaughan » February 8th, 2018, 9:52 am

Last night, I had my first wines from Rivetto. A 2014 Barbaresco Marcarini and a 2014 Commune di Serralunga D'Alba Barolo. Both of these wines were ripe, fruity, and very accessible. I didn't find the Marcarini to be very interesting. The Barolo was interesting but perhaps overripe for my tastes, with some raisin notes. I didn't notice much oak in either wine but they both seemed to be made in a more accessible style. I would have guessed shorter macerations on both and perhaps small barrels on the Barolo. I was surprised to see this producer in the leans traditional category. For what it is worth, I don't have near the experience as many in this thread.

We also had a 2014 Produttori that showed much more classically to me. I enjoyed this one a lot.
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#374 Post by John Morris » February 8th, 2018, 10:38 am

It is a bit of a puzzle to figure out where they fit.

The Rivetto website says that both wines have 20+ day macerations, but both wines get a cold (room temperature) two-day pre-soak before fermentation, which probably accentuates the fruit.

It doesn't say how the wines are aged, but the photos of the cellar show only large casks, no small barrels, and this UK retailer's website says they use Slavonian casks.

[Edited to remove paragraph referring to Rivetti.]
Last edited by John Morris on February 8th, 2018, 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#375 Post by Marcus Dean » February 8th, 2018, 11:09 am

What year did Prunotto change from Trad to Mod?

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#376 Post by Michael S. Monie » February 8th, 2018, 11:16 am

I checked the list for Cascina Bruni of Vegilo Giuseppe. Did I miss it?
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#377 Post by Jeff Vaughan » February 8th, 2018, 11:46 am

John Morris wrote:It is a bit of a puzzle to figure out where they fit.

The Rivetti website says that both wines have 20+ day macerations, but both wines get a cold (room temperature) two-day pre-soak before fermentation, which probably accentuates the fruit.

However, Enrico Rivetti's blog says that, after separating seeds, the wines are macerated on the skins for 60 days. He does talk about working to make the wines more accessible than they were in the old days.

It doesn't say how the wines are aged, but the photos of the cellar show only large casks, no small barrels, and this UK retailer's website says they use Slavonian casks.

John, I was referring to Rivetto, not Rivetti. The website shows pictures of big barrels in the cellar and says this about the Barolo: Stalk and grape seeds removal, pressing and room temperature maceration for 2 days on average.
Duration of maceration in total 20/25 days.
Controlled temperature fermentation at 28-30 °C. Malolactic completed.

Is that a typical maceration or on the shorter side?
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#378 Post by Pat Burton » February 8th, 2018, 12:55 pm

Michael S. Monie wrote:I checked the list for Cascina Bruni of Vegilo Giuseppe. Did I miss it?
nope, that seems to be an omission. I will do some research and add it to the list.
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#379 Post by Michael S. Monie » February 8th, 2018, 1:02 pm

Pat Burton wrote:
Michael S. Monie wrote:I checked the list for Cascina Bruni of Vegilo Giuseppe. Did I miss it?
nope, that seems to be an omission. I will do some research and add it to the list.
I'm drinking the 2006 Bricco Rosso as I write this. I did not know the producer when I purchased this on close out. A search here showed only 1 reference to the producer by Ken V., but it was a 1989 of a different bottling. He liked it.
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#380 Post by John Morris » February 8th, 2018, 2:04 pm

Jeff Vaughan wrote:
John Morris wrote:It is a bit of a puzzle to figure out where they fit.

The Rivetti website says that both wines have 20+ day macerations, but both wines get a cold (room temperature) two-day pre-soak before fermentation, which probably accentuates the fruit.

However, Enrico Rivetti's blog says that, after separating seeds, the wines are macerated on the skins for 60 days. He does talk about working to make the wines more accessible than they were in the old days.

It doesn't say how the wines are aged, but the photos of the cellar show only large casks, no small barrels, and this UK retailer's website says they use Slavonian casks.
John, I was referring to Rivetto, not Rivetti. The website shows pictures of big barrels in the cellar and says this about the Barolo: Stalk and grape seeds removal, pressing and room temperature maceration for 2 days on average.
Duration of maceration in total 20/25 days.
Controlled temperature fermentation at 28-30 °C. Malolactic completed.

Is that a typical maceration or on the shorter side?
Oops. The blog I cited is by Rivetti. I deleted that paragraph in the original post and corrected the spelling of the winery website link. The first and last paragraphs refer to the guy you're talking about.

Twenty days or more is standard for traditional producers. I've never heard of a presoak before, and I wasn't aware you could separate the seeds and leave the skins in the must.
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#381 Post by Otto Forsberg » February 9th, 2018, 6:24 am

Met Enrico Rivetto a few times and visited his winery once. A great and enthusiastic fellow who makes modern yet not modernist wines, i.e. they lean toward the traditional style, but he still tries to make them a bit more approachable and not so stern as the old-school Nebbioli. The modern approach also applies to other wines, for example his most recent wine is a Vino da Tavola Nebbiolo inspired by the Georgian kvevri wines. This Nebbiolo is fermented and aged with the skins in a sealed clay amphora for 8 months.

Regarding the Barolo wines, he ferments the wines in traditional, conical open-top fermetners and uses a lot of traditional botti casks, but also some smaller barrels. However, these are used tonneux for the most part. AFAIK, he doesn't touch barriques and avoids using new oak. Overall his style realies heavily in hands-off approach. He is not a natural producer, but closer to that end of the spectrum than to the conventional one.

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#382 Post by Richard Foxall » November 19th, 2018, 9:01 am

First, I have to thank the OP for this incredibly helpful post. Whenever encountering a maker I haven't bought before or don't already know details of vinification, I consult this list.

Bersano is listed as "unknown," but a visit to the website states that both the Nirvasco Barolo and the Mantico Barbaresco are raised in Slavonian casks, but the Badarina and the Badarina Riserva see at least some barrique. I'd call this a "by wine" approach. Here's a link: http://www.bersano.it/eng/categoria-pro ... ici-rossi/
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#383 Post by Pat Burton » November 19th, 2018, 9:48 am

Richard Foxall wrote:
November 19th, 2018, 9:01 am
First, I have to thank the OP for this incredibly helpful post. Whenever encountering a maker I haven't bought before or don't already know details of vinification, I consult this list.

Bersano is listed as "unknown," but a visit to the website states that both the Nirvasco Barolo and the Mantico Barbaresco are raised in Slavonian casks, but the Badarina and the Badarina Riserva see at least some barrique. I'd call this a "by wine" approach. Here's a link: http://www.bersano.it/eng/categoria-pro ... ici-rossi/
You are welcome. Also, thank you for this info. I've been meaning to update the unknown section for a while now as I expect a number of them have developed websites since I last checked. I'll try to get to this over the holidays as I have some free time on my schedule. As for your info, I will update accordingly.
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#384 Post by PBernardi » November 25th, 2018, 3:29 pm

Cascina Massara - Giancarlo Burlotto formerly known as Andrea Burlotto is very much traditional. Botti and long maceration: their pelaverga is distinctive from their cousins GB or Castello because of that.
In my view use of rotofermenters or barriques are not conducive in any way to a traditional winemaking.

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#385 Post by ChrisU » November 25th, 2018, 11:24 pm

Matt Latuchie wrote:
May 26th, 2017, 6:53 am
Interesting quote from speaking with Guiseppe Vajra the other day on how to figure out who are modern vs. traditional producers, "All you need to do is see who produces Freisa. Those are the traditionalists. Not to say that this is a perfect list, but merely a list of producers that must be included within the traditional producer discussion."

Most producers abandoned the varietal a while back and planted Nebbiolo in its place. He contends that the people that have stuck with it value tradition. I thought his quote would be interesting to share with the community.

Using his logic, the list would include:

Giuseppe Rinaldi
G.D. Vajra
Bartolo Mascarello
Comm. G.B. Burlotto
Giacomo Brezza
Cavallotto

Seems appropriate to me.
I believe Vietti makes a Freisa.
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#386 Post by G. Shields » November 26th, 2018, 12:47 am

ChrisU wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 11:24 pm
Matt Latuchie wrote:
May 26th, 2017, 6:53 am
Interesting quote from speaking with Guiseppe Vajra the other day on how to figure out who are modern vs. traditional producers, "All you need to do is see who produces Freisa. Those are the traditionalists. Not to say that this is a perfect list, but merely a list of producers that must be included within the traditional producer discussion."

Most producers abandoned the varietal a while back and planted Nebbiolo in its place. He contends that the people that have stuck with it value tradition. I thought his quote would be interesting to share with the community.

Using his logic, the list would include:

Giuseppe Rinaldi
G.D. Vajra
Bartolo Mascarello
Comm. G.B. Burlotto
Giacomo Brezza
Cavallotto

Seems appropriate to me.
I believe Vietti makes a Freisa.
Giacomo Fenocchio would also qualify under the criteria of this list: definitely traditional and makes a Langhe Freisa as well.
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#387 Post by John Morris » November 27th, 2018, 3:43 pm

ChrisU wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 11:24 pm
I believe Vietti makes a Freisa.
You're right. I've never seen it. Evidently it's sparkling, as many freisas are from areas to the east of the Langhe. Maybe the criteria should be that they produce a still freisa.
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#388 Post by J Dove » November 27th, 2018, 4:50 pm

I've had a couple of bottles of the 2006 Kye from Vajra in the past few weeks. It's drinking great...
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#389 Post by Ian Sutton » December 2nd, 2018, 7:51 am

J Dove wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 4:50 pm
I've had a couple of bottles of the 2006 Kye from Vajra in the past few weeks. It's drinking great...
Hmm - I do keep meaning to buy a bottle of this to try, preferably pre-aged.
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#390 Post by Jeff Vaughan » January 8th, 2019, 5:46 pm

G. Shields wrote:
November 26th, 2018, 12:47 am
ChrisU wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 11:24 pm
Matt Latuchie wrote:
May 26th, 2017, 6:53 am
Interesting quote from speaking with Guiseppe Vajra the other day on how to figure out who are modern vs. traditional producers, "All you need to do is see who produces Freisa. Those are the traditionalists. Not to say that this is a perfect list, but merely a list of producers that must be included within the traditional producer discussion."

Most producers abandoned the varietal a while back and planted Nebbiolo in its place. He contends that the people that have stuck with it value tradition. I thought his quote would be interesting to share with the community.

Using his logic, the list would include:

Giuseppe Rinaldi
G.D. Vajra
Bartolo Mascarello
Comm. G.B. Burlotto
Giacomo Brezza
Cavallotto

Seems appropriate to me.
I believe Vietti makes a Freisa.
Giacomo Fenocchio would also qualify under the criteria of this list: definitely traditional and makes a Langhe Freisa as well.
And Scarpa.
CT: outplaying

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Tim Heaton
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Joined: September 8th, 2011, 4:11 pm
Location: Castle Rock, Colorado or Piemonte

Re: Traditional vs. Modern Barolo / Barbaresco

#391 Post by Tim Heaton » January 8th, 2019, 9:56 pm

Jeff Vaughan wrote:
January 8th, 2019, 5:46 pm
G. Shields wrote:
November 26th, 2018, 12:47 am
ChrisU wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 11:24 pm


I believe Vietti makes a Freisa.
Giacomo Fenocchio would also qualify under the criteria of this list: definitely traditional and makes a Langhe Freisa as well.
And Scarpa.
and G. Mascarello
ITB, www.italianwinereviews.com
CT: Tim Heaton

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