Traditional vs. Modern Barolo / Barbaresco

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Pat Burton
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Traditional vs. Modern Barolo / Barbaresco

#1 Post by Pat Burton » October 21st, 2014, 9:35 am

A while back a very interesting thread on this topic for Bordeaux generated several lists of producers and which camps they fall into (http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... x#p1296925). I continue to find that thread quite helpful in making buying decisions for producers whose wines I've had limited or no chance to taste, particularly mature.

edit: what follows here is a list of all producers of Barolo or Barbaresco that I can confirm the existence of (and several extinct producers as well) categorized on a scale of traditional to modern techniques (or perhaps more accurately, traditional or modern tasting wine). Use of oak and length of maceration were the primary methods I used in this categorization, though other factors were considered when verifiable.

Currently Modern but Formerly Traditional - former stalwarts of traditional wines
Claudio Alario
Beni di Batasiolo
Enzo Boglietti (both barriques and botti now in use)
Tenuta Carretta
Ceretto
Cordero di Montezemolo
Luigi Einaudi (now shifting back away from barrique use)
Marchesi di Barolo
Prunotto
Renato Ratti
Socre (founded 1871, recent releases lean towards modern)
Terre del Barolo (new releases are using Slavonian oak casks, somewhat extended maceration- possibly dialing back).

Modernist
Orlando Abrigo
Cascina Adelaide
Marco e Vittorio Adriano
Crissante Alessandria
Gianfranco Alessandria
Silvio Alessandria
Elio Altare
Azelia (EXCEPT: Margheria and Riserva Voghera Brea, which are traditional)
Ca del Baio
Azienda Vinicola Cascina Baricchi
Bava
Tenimenti Ca' Bianca
Gigi Bianco
Gianfranco Bovio
Cascina Bruciata
Bussia Soprana
Campo Quadro
Cascinabric 460 (Gianluca Viberti)
Bartolomeo Cavalier
Aldo Clerico
Domenico Clerico
Pio Cesare
Cocito
Colle dei Venti
Collina San Ponzio
Diego Conterno
Conterno-Fantino
Giovanni Corino
Renato Corino
Cossetti
Cascina Cucco
Marco Curto
Lia Duchessa
Umberto Fiore
La Fusina
Gabutti Boasso
Poderi Gianni Gagliardo
Le Ginestre
Giribaldi
Gomba
Fratelli Grasso
Silvio Grasso
Giacomo Grimaldi
Luigino Grimaldi
Icardi
Eredi Lodali Treiso
Marchesi di Gresy (but Camp Gros made in old botti)
Mario Marengo
Moccagatta
Mauro Molino
Tenuta Montanello
Montaribaldi
Casa Vinicola Morando*
Cascina Morassino
Giuseppe Negro
Andrea Oberto
Parusso
Giorgio Pelissero
Cantina del Pino
E. Pira e Figli-Chiara Boschis
Luigi Pira
Poggio Le Coste
Prinsi
Raineri
Ressia
Revello
Pietro Rinaldi
Dante Rivetti
Bruno Rocca
Ronchi di Giancarlo Rocca
Josetta Saffirio
Tenuta San Mauro
Roberto Sarotto
Simone Scaletta
Francesco Scanavino
Paolo Scavino
Sylla Sebaste
Mauro Sebaste
Seghesio
Select Vini (Cavalier Dario)
Rivella Silvia
La Spinetta (Giuseppe Rivetti)
Stroppiana
Michele Taliano
Terre da Vino
Traversa
Valfieri
Mauro Veglio
Villa Ile
Virna
Alberto Voerzio
Gianni Voerzio
Roberto Voerzio
Luigi Voghera

Lean Modern
Giacomo Ascheri
Bera
Enrico Bergadano
Ciabot Berton
Eugenio Bocchino
Lodovico Borgogno
Cantina del Bricchetto (Franco Rocca)
La Contea
Poderi Aldo Conterno (made by Aldo's sons, though probably dialing back oak use - they replace their botti every 8-10 years so oak levels can vary...)
Fantino Conterno
Tenute Costa
Poderi Elia
Elio Filippino
Gagliasso
Gastaldi
Angelo Germano (Vigne Rue and Dardi di Bussia (formerly Mondoca Dardi))
Clemente Guasti & Figli
Gianpaolo Manzone
Gianpiero Marrone
Franco Molino
Cascina del Monastero
La Morandina
Cascina Morassino
Ada Nada
Comm. Armando Piazzo
Piero Benevelli
Ramello
Massimo Rattalino
Massimo Rivetti
Ca' Rome
Podere Ruggeri Corsini
Flavio Saglietti
Edoardo Sobrino
Sottimano (possibly shifting to more traditional beginning in about 2010)
Tre Donne
Vallebelbo ("for foreign market")
Villa Rosa

Median
Cascina Ballarin (Luigi Viberti)
Silvano Bolmida
Brangero (Marco Brangero describes it as "50% traditional, 50% more modern")
Franco Conterno
Teo Costa
Costa di Bussia
Domenico Filippino
Francone
Cantine Gemma
Ferdinando Giordano
Manfredi
Olivero
Paitin di Pasquero Elia
Palazzo Rosso
Palladino
Pasquale Pelissero
Elvio Pertinace (Villa Vignaioli) - Some 5L barrels and 10-12 day maceration
Ferdinando Principiano - heavy cropping of fruit, various barrel sizes (no barriques), long maceration w/o temp control
Produttori de Govone
Rocche dei Manzoni
Tenuta Roncaglia
Luciano Sandrone (style has changed multiple times over the years, not sure where to place)
Cantine Scrimaglio
Enrico Serafino
Le Strette
Vecchia Storia
Michelino Veglio

Lean Traditional
Anna Maria Abbona
Fratelli Alessandria (Monvigliero is traditional)
Anselma
Barale
Baudana
Bersano
Angelo Boffa
Carlo Boffa
Marco Bonfante (Barbaresco normale sees some smaller barrels but everything else is in botti with long macerations)
Cascina Bruni (most wines seem to be traditional but some made in neutral barriques)
Piero Busso (San Stunet sees 30% barrique. Others are 100% botti)
Ca' Viola
Fratelli Casetta
Michele Chiarlo
Francesco Clerico
Poderi Colla/Cascina Drago
Poderi Aldo Conterno (made by Aldo)
Luigi Coppo
Rinaldi Cortese
Dott. Giacomo Damilano
Cantine Damilano
De Forville
Erbaluna
Stefano Farina
Cascina Fontana
Ettore Fontana
Angelo Gaja
Carlo Giacosa (Some Variation)
Luigi Giordano
Cascina Luisin
Giovanni Manzone
Cozzo Mario
Mirafiore
Fratelli Monchiero
Musso
Vini Negretti
Pier
Pugnani
La Querciola
Rivetto
Rocche Costamagna
Rocche Viberti
Cantina delle Rose
Poderi Roset
Runchet (long maceration times, barriques are used but they are not new and may be fairly neutral)
Salvano
Schiavenza
Settimo Aurelio
San Silvestro
Sobrero
Sordo
Trediberri
Cascina Vano
G. D. Vajra
Giovanni Viberti
Vietti (note that top crus are more traditional)
Villa Ilaria
Carlo Viglione (di Giulio Viglione)

Traditional
Lorenzo Accomasso
Pietro Berutti
Bel Colle
Olek Bondonio (botte grande)
Francesco Borgogno
Fratelli Serio e Battista Borgogno
Giacomo Borgogno & Figli
Agostino Bosco
Brezza
Bric Cenciurio
Brovia
Comm. G. B. Burlotto
Luigi Calissano
Camerano
Canonica, Giovanni
Cappellano
Castello di Neive
Castello di Verduno
Cavallero
Cavallotto
Cigliuti
Elvio Cogno
Poderi Colla/Cascina Drago
Giacomo Conterno
Paolo Conterno
Guiseppe Cortese
Luigi & Figlio Dessilani
Dezzani
Dosio
Cascina Ebreo
Alessandro Fantino e Gian Natale
Giacomo Fenocchio
Feyles
Franco Fiorina
Fracassi
Ettore Germano, now made by Angelo (normale, Prapò and Lazzarito. the Cerretta is lean modern with 20% new oak)
Bruno Giacosa
Fratelli Giacosa
Silvio Giamello (La Licenziana)
Giovanni-Moresco*
Cantina del Glicine
Bruna Grimaldi (Badarina and Bricco Ambrogio, Camilla is less so)
Ugo Lequio
Marcarini
Manuel Marinacci
Bartolo Mascarello
Giuseppe Mascarello & Figlio
Massolino (except Parafada, which used barriques from 1990-2006)
Fratelli Minuto Fu Felice*
Luigi Minuto
Cantina del Nebbiolo
Angelo Negro e Figli
Luigi Oddero
Poderi e Cantine Oddero
Cantina Parroco (di Neive)
Pecchenino
Giorgio Pira
Luigi Pistone*
Guido Porro
Principano
Produttori del Barbaresco
Punset
Francesco Rinaldi
Giuseppe Rinaldi
Serafino Rivella
Rizzi
Roagna
Rocca Felice
Roccalini
Flavio Roddolo
Gigi Rosso
Giovanni Rosso (di Davide Rosso)
Santa Maria (A. Viberti)
Elio Sandri
Scarpa
Scarzello
Societa Cooperativa Responsabilita Limitata (Soc. Coop. R.L.)- former name of Produttori del Barbaresco
La Spinona
Vicenziana (La Licenziana)
Vietto
Villadoria

Formerly Modernist, now moving to Traditional
Albino Rocca
Boroli (~2011)
Novello (~2005)
Reverdito

Variable by Individual Wine
Marziano Abbona
Bersano (Nirvasco Barolo and Mantico Barbaresco in Slavonian casks, Badarina and Badarina Riserva see some barrique)
Fiorenzo Nada (Rombone is lean modern, Manzola is traditional)
Fontanabianca
Fontanafredda (unsure of direction of new ownership, new releases may be more modern)
Ghisolfi
Elio Grasso (Gavarini Chinera and Casa Mate are traditional, riserva - Runcot is lean modern)
Mainerdo
Giuseppe Nada
San Biagio (Giovanni Roggero)

Information Not Available
Albeisa
Allini
Alte Rocche Bianche
Antica Torre
Araldica di Piemontesi
Il Belvedere
Aldo Bianco
Luigi Bianco & Figlio
Claudio Boggione
Casa Balocca
Ca' del Bara
Barbaresco Vedimmia
Ca' Bauda
Bonino
Bramoss
Andrea Burlotto (Cascina Massara)
Mauro Bussi
Cadia
Giorgio Carnevale
Casadei
Casavecchia
Castello Montegrosso
Che Storia
Cantina Christina
Le Colline
Tenute Colue
Giuseppe Contratto
Corte dei Balbi Soprani
Casa Vinicola Cortese
Franca Cravanzola
Dardano
Fondatore Domizio
Dossia
Il Dragone
Giovanni Farinetti
Italo Farinetti
Bruno Ferrero
Fratelli Ferrero (Renato Ferrero)
Virginia Eredi Ferrero
Gancia*
Cantina Tomaso Gianolio
Gillardi
Gilardino*
Giovanni Giordano e Figli
Giulio Grasso
Gianluigi Lano
Fratelli Levis
Cascina Longoria
Cantine Luzi Donadei Fabiani
Maglietta
Sergio Mailli
Fratelli Manzone
Marenco*
Cantina Marone
Miliasso
Cecilia Monte
Montegrigio
Monteoliveto
Diego Morra
Ca' Munari
Danilo Nada
Casa Vinicola Nicolello
La Ca' Nova
Egidio Oberto
Il Palazzotto
Patrizi
Livio Pavese
Poggio del Ciabot*
Reva
Ricossa
Rivata
Tenuta Rocca
Rocca de' Mari
Le Rocche dei Barbari
Dario Rocco
Rosati
San Cristoforo di Angelo Sassi
San Giuliano
San Martino*
San Michele
Sant' Orsola
Tenuta Serradenari
Sori Fratin
Cantine Soria
Le Terre
Terre di Bo
Cantine Terrenostre
Torregiorgi
Fratelli Toso
Varaldo
Giovanni Veglio
Ca' Vergana
Villa Caccione
Villa Chiara
Villa Montersino* (Unsure if still in production, no wine available on Wine Searcher)
Luigi Zunino

*Producers that no longer exist and/or no longer produce a Barolo/Barbaresco
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Traditional vs. Modern Barolo / Barbaresco

#2 Post by Daniel Mattisson » October 21st, 2014, 9:42 am

Cavallotto I would say lean traditional
Vajra does not lean modern, I would say lean traditional or traditional
G Conterno should be fully traditional
Bartolo Mascarello traditional
Guido Porro traditional
Ceretto lean modern?
Sottimano lean modern?
Elio Grasso: Gavarini Chinera and Casa Mate traditional, riserva is lean modern
E. Altare modern
Corino modern
Cappelano traditional

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#3 Post by Daniel Mattisson » October 21st, 2014, 9:48 am

A couple more:
Vietti traditional
Fratelli Alessandria lean traditional?
Spinetta modern
Einaudi lean traditional?

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#4 Post by R. Smith » October 21st, 2014, 9:48 am

Traditional
PRODUTTORI del BARBARESCO

Lean Traditional
Vietti
R y @ n

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#5 Post by Pat Burton » October 21st, 2014, 9:51 am

updated
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#6 Post by Oliver McCrum » October 21st, 2014, 10:00 am

Castello di Verduno is entirely traditional
Germano is fully traditional for Prapò and Lazzarito, in between for Cerretta
Cavallotto uses roto-fermenters for cap management only on long macerations, and extended aging in large barrels, I would say fully traditional.

I import all of these wines.
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#7 Post by Daniel Mattisson » October 21st, 2014, 10:00 am

I think Burlotto would fall into lean traditional or traditional, but might depend on the bottling.
Elvio Cogno traditional

Lots more to go!

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#8 Post by Oliver McCrum » October 21st, 2014, 10:01 am

This is a great idea, by the way.
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#9 Post by John Morris » October 21st, 2014, 10:12 am

Daniel Mattisson wrote:I think Burlotto would fall into lean traditional or traditional, but might depend on the bottling.
The Monvigliero is pressed with feet (yes!) and has a 60-day maceration. Top that for traditional!
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#10 Post by Pat Burton » October 21st, 2014, 10:51 am

updated and reordered
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#11 Post by R. Frankel » October 21st, 2014, 10:59 am

Thanks for putting this together - very neat and helpful. Bookmarked.

Btw, try as I might I refuse to choose along this axis. I adore the traditionals (especially Marcarini and the Mascarellos) but also hugely enjoy the moderns (eg. Scavino and Aldo Conterno).

Fun to drink them together :).
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#12 Post by R. Frankel » October 21st, 2014, 11:01 am

Ah, another point of clarification - can someone more experienced than I delineate the Voerzio brothers?
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#13 Post by George Tita » October 21st, 2014, 11:23 am

So of the four producers that I import, they fall into the following:

Barbaresco
Olek Bondonio - Traditional (only botte grande)

Barolo
Bosco Agostino - Since 2008, Traditional (20-24 days to set color is old barrique, then into Slovenian Oak)

Az Ag Brangero - hmmm... Since 2008 making wine from Mongivliero; the Normale is 60 day skin contact then into new/used Tonneau. The Cru, however, is also 60 day skin contact and then put into 2nd passage Barrique. Marco Brangero describes it as "50% traditional, 50% more modern"

Germano Angelo - Normale is 100% Traditiaional with 28 day skin contact and then into large neutral barrels. His "Vigne Rue" and "Dardi di Bussia" (formerly "Mondoca Dardi) sees 24-28 days on skins and then into 20% new, rest 1-4yr old Tonneau so "lean Modern"
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#14 Post by Sanjay Nandurkar » October 21st, 2014, 1:26 pm

Just going from the updated Post #1 -I would suggest:

Clerico as Modern than Lean Modern
Moccagatta as Modern
Corino as lean Modern
Prunotto as lean Modern
Massolino as lean Modern
Einaudi as lean modern

Ratti as in middle ground (?)
Cortese as in middle ground (?)
Pio Cesare as in middle ground (?)

F Rinaldi as traditional
Borgogno as traditional
Fontanafredda as traditional

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#15 Post by Oliver McCrum » October 21st, 2014, 2:58 pm

How did Aldo Conterno end up as leaning modern?
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#16 Post by Pat Burton » October 21st, 2014, 4:09 pm

updated
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#17 Post by Pat Burton » October 21st, 2014, 4:10 pm

Oliver McCrum wrote:How did Aldo Conterno end up as leaning modern?
I've read that the wines see more oak and are more fruit forward than some of the traditional producers. Please feel free disagree and, hopefully, explain.
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#18 Post by Ian Sutton » October 21st, 2014, 4:19 pm

Pat Burton wrote:
Oliver McCrum wrote:How did Aldo Conterno end up as leaning modern?
I've read that the wines see more oak and are more fruit forward than some of the traditional producers. Please feel free disagree and, hopefully, explain.
No disagreement here - these days, what's in the glass appears to be designed to avoid all that tiresome waiting for maturity.
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#19 Post by Oliver McCrum » October 21st, 2014, 4:30 pm

Pat Burton wrote:
Oliver McCrum wrote:How did Aldo Conterno end up as leaning modern?
I've read that the wines see more oak and are more fruit forward than some of the traditional producers. Please feel free disagree and, hopefully, explain.
I will admit that the last time I tasted an Aldo Conterno Barolo it showed a hint of wood, but at least by the technical information on their website, their wines are warm fermentation, long to very long maceration, and aged in botti, the very definition of traditional. If a winery buys some new botti it can show in the wines, and even a taliban like me can't object to the occasional new barrel.
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#20 Post by Pat Burton » October 21st, 2014, 4:45 pm

other thoughts on Aldo Conterno out there?
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#21 Post by Pat Burton » October 21st, 2014, 4:55 pm

Some questions have arisen about the definitions of the categories in my OP. I had left them vague on purpose as I hoped the board would help to identify the collective thoughts on what makes nebbiolo traditional (e.g.). For myself, I was thinking:

Traditional: Wines aged in large botti, long maceration times (e.g. 20+ days), avoidance of new oak, with a resulting wine that is highly structured and requiring extending bottle aging to enter a drinking window.

Modern: Wines aged in barrels, new oak frequently used, shorter maceration times via use of rotofermenters, riper fruit, resulting in wines that show a fair amount of fruit in the short to mid-term, even if extending bottle aging may result in a 'better' drinking experience. Basically, a clear divergence from traditional approaches that result in a wine that is approachable at an earlier age.

The categories I termed as 'leaning' in one direction or the other are for producers that can generally be thought of as one or the other but depart in enough substantial ways from the stalwarts of their ends of the spectrum to allow co-categorization.

Again, I'm far from an expert in this region (or any) of the world so take my definitions with a grain of salt. I'm happy to hear dissenting voices, clarifications, etc.
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#22 Post by George Tita » October 21st, 2014, 5:12 pm

Oliver McCrum wrote:
Pat Burton wrote:
Oliver McCrum wrote:How did Aldo Conterno end up as leaning modern?
I've read that the wines see more oak and are more fruit forward than some of the traditional producers. Please feel free disagree and, hopefully, explain.
I will admit that the last time I tasted an Aldo Conterno Barolo it showed a hint of wood, but at least by the technical information on their website, their wines are warm fermentation, long to very long maceration, and aged in botti, the very definition of traditional. If a winery buys some new botti it can show in the wines, and even a taliban like me can't object to the occasional new barrel.
I might not be remembering things correctly, but someone on the board suggested that the "new botti" explanation was being bandied about a little too frequently... that said, I had a 2005 Cicala not that long ago and it was wonderful.
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#23 Post by Oliver McCrum » October 21st, 2014, 5:22 pm

I know at least one winery in Barolo that claims to be fully traditional but isn't, so it's as well to be a bit skeptical.
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#24 Post by Ken V » October 21st, 2014, 6:22 pm

Pat Burton wrote:other thoughts on Aldo Conterno out there?
I would put them in with Scavino, Altare, and others who went very modern with barriques, esp. in the 90s, but have dialed back in recent years. If Aldo wanted to be traditional, he would have stayed with his brother, but I do think it was his sons who took it to the next level before going back toward the middle again.
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#25 Post by Sanjay Nandurkar » October 22nd, 2014, 12:05 am

I would have to question about Gaja as lean traditional. Opinions?

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#26 Post by jbray23 » October 22nd, 2014, 12:53 am

I think Gaja has been modern for so long people just pass him off as being traditional.
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#27 Post by jbray23 » October 22nd, 2014, 12:58 am

Ca del baio ?
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#28 Post by M.Kaplan » October 22nd, 2014, 1:00 am

jbray23 wrote:I think Gaja has been modern for so long people just pass him off as being traditional.
I attended a Gaja dinner ten years or so ago at Valentino in Los Angeles. The highlight of the evening was Angelo's rant against modernist makers of Barolo and Barbaresco...
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Traditional vs. Modern Barolo / Barbaresco

#29 Post by Bob Hughes » October 22nd, 2014, 5:49 am

Would agree with Ken V (a true Barolo Jedi) regarding where to consign Aldo Conterno on this continuum. I would also not consider Gaja traditional.

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#30 Post by Bob Hughes » October 22nd, 2014, 5:50 am

Also surprised to see Guido Porro listed as traditional - I find him to be good value for an entry level look at Barolo, but his wines always strike me as "sculpted", for lack of a better term.

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#31 Post by Daniel Mattisson » October 22nd, 2014, 5:57 am

Anybody have any info on the below?
- Cantina del Pino
- Castello Verduno
- Seghesio
- Sordo
- Bruno Rocca
- Schiavenza
- Grimaldi

Baudana can probably be put with Vajra in lean traditional as they now own Baudana.

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#32 Post by Daniel Mattisson » October 22nd, 2014, 5:59 am

Azelia is another thats missing. Modern or lean modern?

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#33 Post by Pat Burton » October 22nd, 2014, 6:28 am

Updated where possible.

For Aldo Conterno, it was suggested to me that I separate the wines made by Aldo from those made by his sons, which made a good deal of sense to me.

Gaja: I think it is easy to confuse the different wines Gaja makes. This list isn't aimed to consider the non-nebbiolo wines of a producer and thus I think we should forgive Gaja for planting some non-traditional varieties in the area (e.g. Cabernet). I know that there is some talk of some field blends in some of Gaja's nebbiolos (barbera, dolcetto). Still does one disagree that the great nebbiolos of Gaja lack the traditional elements?

Thoughts on the leaning categories: I had intended to use these categories, as well as all others to describe what the producers are currently doing. I think that some producers were placed initially in leaning categories because they once produced one type of wine but now produced another. I decided another category might be helpful and so I added a 'Prince' group - producers formerly known as traditional. I hope to use this list as a buying guide and so it is helpful to know that such a switch has occurred. If anyone has approximate dates for such changes off the top of their head, I'm happy to add that.
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#34 Post by Pat Burton » October 22nd, 2014, 6:38 am

Daniel Mattisson wrote:Anybody have any info on the below?
- Cantina del Pino
- Castello Verduno
- Seghesio
- Sordo
- Bruno Rocca
- Schiavenza
- Grimaldi

Baudana can probably be put with Vajra in lean traditional as they now own Baudana.
added Cantina del Pino, Bruno Rocca, and Baudana.

I'm not sure where to place Seghesio, Sordo, Grimaldi, Schiavenza, or Azelia either.
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#35 Post by Gary York » October 22nd, 2014, 7:22 am

Bruno Rocca is modern, the use of oak clearly impacts the wine. Azelia leans modern. I guess. Kind of depends on where you draw the wine. If you use roto on any/all of wines or use small barrels for 2 of your 4 Barolo, where does that place you?
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#36 Post by Pat Burton » October 22nd, 2014, 8:17 am

Sanjay Nandurkar wrote:Just going from the updated Post #1 -I would suggest:
Fontanafredda as traditional
Sanjay, have you had any of the recent releases from here? Its been suggested to me that the style has been on the move towards modern since the ownership changed. Anyone else out there know?
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#37 Post by Patrick Duffy » October 22nd, 2014, 8:40 am

jbray23 wrote:Ca del baio ?
I would consider them modern.

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#38 Post by brodie thomson » October 22nd, 2014, 9:44 am

Which vintage did A. Conterno move "Lean Traditional" (made by Aldo) to "Lean Modern" (made by Aldo's sons)?

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#39 Post by Oliver McCrum » October 22nd, 2014, 10:04 am

The current technical sheets on the Aldo Conterno site are not at all modern, so it would be wrong to put them as 'currently modern.'
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#40 Post by Pat Burton » October 22nd, 2014, 10:21 am

Oliver McCrum wrote:The current technical sheets on the Aldo Conterno site are not at all modern, so it would be wrong to put them as 'currently modern.'
So have the sons moved entirely away from the small barriques?
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#41 Post by Julius L » October 22nd, 2014, 10:35 am

I think of Gaja as at least leaning if not fully traditional for his Barolo and Barbaresco. Where he strikes out against tradition is in his single Cru bottlings, where his blendings of a little (5% or 6%) Barbera with Nebbiolo have made beautiful, approachable wines but as a result required the Langhe DOC designation.
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#42 Post by Gary Ahearn » October 22nd, 2014, 10:53 am

Love the way you keep updating/tweeking the list Pat. It's a keeper. Thanks.

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#43 Post by steve goldun » October 22nd, 2014, 11:15 am

So have the sons moved entirely away from the small barriques?
All those barriques in the cellar are for the various projects are used for the Barbera, various Nebbiolo blends and at least two Chardonnay cuvees that I can remember. The couple of times I was able to taste with Aldo, the last being at least 10 years ago, he seemed to be politely dismissive of all of these wines, attributing them to his sons. I'm sure they experimented with Barolo in barrique like lots of producers but as far as I know, no barrique aged Barolo have ever been released here. I think Conterno's modernist reputation stems from the use of roto fermenters which they've been using since the 90's. I've tasted with Aldo's son Giacomo who runs the cellar here and he wasn't very specific about how exactly they use the rotos but the wines aren't nearly as dark and extracted as those of someone like Giorgio Rivetti where the fermentations take less than a week nor as traditional to me as those of Cavallotto where the rotos are turned on a couple of times a day to manage the cap, as someone mentioned earlier. Either way, I had a bottle of 1989 Granbussia last week which was magnificent, really one of the great Barolos I've ever drunk along with the 1971, and I don't think they're making them like this anymore.
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#44 Post by Ian Sutton » October 22nd, 2014, 11:24 am

Daniel Mattisson wrote: - Schiavenza
Was there just over a week ago. No small barrels, but interesting use of cement for fermentation. I don't recall hearing the maceration period (we joined an Italian group's tour of the winery in between courses in the restaurant!).

Taste-wise I'd suggest not full-traditional or full-modern, maybe leaning to traditional. Whatever, very good.
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#45 Post by david li » October 22nd, 2014, 11:34 am

Just curious if anyone has done a blind tasting to see if you can pick out the traditional vs the modern blindly after the wines are matured.

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#46 Post by John Morris » October 22nd, 2014, 11:37 am

steve goldun wrote:
So have the sons moved entirely away from the small barriques?
All those barriques in the cellar are for the various projects are used for the Barbera, various Nebbiolo blends and at least two Chardonnay cuvees that I can remember. The couple of times I was able to taste with Aldo, the last being at least 10 years ago, he seemed to be politely dismissive of all of these wines, attributing them to his sons. I'm sure they experimented with Barolo in barrique like lots of producers but as far as I know, no barrique aged Barolo have ever been released here. I think Conterno's modernist reputation stems from the use of roto fermenters which they've been using since the 90's. I've tasted with Aldo's son Giacomo who runs the cellar here and he wasn't very specific about how exactly they use the rotos but the wines aren't nearly as dark and extracted as those of someone like Giorgio Rivetti where the fermentations take less than a week nor as traditional to me as those of Cavallotto where the rotos are turned on a couple of times a day to manage the cap, as someone mentioned earlier. Either way, I had a bottle of 1989 Granbussia last week which was magnificent, really one of the great Barolos I've ever drunk along with the 1971, and I don't think they're making them like this anymore.
No one disputes that the Conternos say that they don't use barriques on the Barolos. The question is where the oaky flavors many of us have observed come from.

As for dark color, I understood that it was the barriques that fix the pigments and that why the modern wines tend to be darker. Are the rotofermenters supposed to play a part, too?
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#47 Post by Ken V » October 22nd, 2014, 11:38 am

david li wrote:Just curious if anyone has done a blind tasting to see if you can pick out the traditional vs the modern blindly after the wines are matured.
We had this event at Antonio's back in 2010:

http://finewinegeek.com/tn/2010-10-09_NK_1990-Barolo/
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#48 Post by Ian Sutton » October 22nd, 2014, 11:39 am

Pat Burton wrote:Some questions have arisen about the definitions of the categories in my OP. I had left them vague on purpose as I hoped the board would help to identify the collective thoughts on what makes nebbiolo traditional (e.g.). For myself, I was thinking:

Traditional: Wines aged in large botti, long maceration times (e.g. 30+ days), avoidance of new oak, with a resulting wine that is highly structured and requiring extending bottle aging to enter a drinking window.

Modern: Wines aged in barrels, new oak frequently used, shorter maceration times, riper fruit, resulting in wines that show a fair amount of fruit in the short to mid-term, even if extending bottle aging may result in a 'better' drinking experience. Basically, a clear divergence from traditional approaches that result in a wine that is approachable at an earlier age.
Worth also considering oak used: French being firmly modernist, Slavonian oak being firmly traditionalist. Confusingly there are some French oak Botti Grandi out there and I've seen tonneaux in both. I can't recall a slavonian oak barrique, but someone must have tried it.
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#49 Post by david li » October 22nd, 2014, 11:46 am

Ken V wrote:
david li wrote:Just curious if anyone has done a blind tasting to see if you can pick out the traditional vs the modern blindly after the wines are matured.
We had this event at Antonio's back in 2010:

http://finewinegeek.com/tn/2010-10-09_NK_1990-Barolo/
Thanks, Ken

What clue do you look for to pick out the modern barolo when it is matured. I can tell when served young from the softer tannin and more pronounced the red fruit note. Do they develop different second flavor after aging?

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#50 Post by Bill Bøykin » October 22nd, 2014, 12:18 pm

Ken V wrote:
david li wrote:Just curious if anyone has done a blind tasting to see if you can pick out the traditional vs the modern blindly after the wines are matured.
We had this event at Antonio's back in 2010:

http://finewinegeek.com/tn/2010-10-09_NK_1990-Barolo/
Good memories,Ken.........and enhanced by the appearance of the young Superman...........

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