Pernand Vergelesses

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Andrew K.
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Pernand Vergelesses

#1 Post by Andrew K. » September 12th, 2020, 9:25 am

This area appears to have some pretty good values. However, the first one I tried yesterday 2017 Chandon de Brailles Pernand-Vergelesse 1er Cru Ile Vergelesses was super jammy and ripe with just a hint of sawdust on the nose. More like a CA Pinot than Burg to me. It did do better with some air time, but the fruit was overwhelming regardless.

I tried it because it got great ratings, but now I'm wondering if that's not because lots of the typical critics love the bombastic ripe style.

Is that the typical style of this area? Does it just need some bottle age to mellow and show more interesting characteristics?
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#2 Post by Kris Patten » September 12th, 2020, 10:30 am

Odd, I have always considered PV to be more of a sour cherry note young with higher acid. Haven't had any 2017s.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#3 Post by ABell » September 12th, 2020, 10:42 am

I haven't had that experience but have only tried a handful of producers. I really like Delarche in Pernand-Vergelesses for both red and white. Unmistakably Burgundian, at a very reasonable price.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#4 Post by Marshall Manning » September 12th, 2020, 11:22 am

Agree with Kris, that doesn't sound like Briailles at all unless there's been a style change at the domaine. They are usually very crunchy, tangy wines with minimal oak influence.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#5 Post by Lee Short » September 12th, 2020, 12:00 pm

+1 on what Kris and Marshall said. That's very unusual, both for the commune and for that producer. I got no explanation.

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#6 Post by Greg K » September 12th, 2020, 1:20 pm

I buy a fair amount of Pernand, and that sounds odd. They can be on the bigger side for burgundy, but I’ve never found them jammy.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#7 Post by Andrew K. » September 12th, 2020, 1:38 pm

Yeah it's not what I expected for sure. There were 2 other experienced tasters there and they both found it like pure blackberry jam right off the bat. It did mellow some with air. We only had it open for 10 min or so right out of the cellar, so unsure how it developed over an hour or 2.

But I did pick up 3 bottles anyway for the cellar. Will try some others from PV for comparison. Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#8 Post by Peter Valiquette » September 12th, 2020, 2:14 pm

Hmmm, that doesn't sound like the wine I had back in March. My CT note below:

Very well judged ripeness bestows the wine with lovely perfumed red cherry fruit accented with damp forest floor on a foundation of firm but elegant tannins, lifted acidity, and a lingering soft finish. 92+

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#9 Post by Andrew K. » September 12th, 2020, 3:12 pm

Well we agree on the elegant tannins and lingering soft finish. I'm not sure about the well judged ripeness at least in this bottle.

Is it possible this was cooked during transit/storage?
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#10 Post by john stimson » September 12th, 2020, 3:25 pm

That's not what a cooked wine tastes like. I'm wondering if perhaps the wine was too warm when you tasted it.

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#11 Post by Andrew K. » September 12th, 2020, 3:43 pm

john stimson wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 3:25 pm
That's not what a cooked wine tastes like. I'm wondering if perhaps the wine was too warm when you tasted it.
I didn't think so, but super strange. Came right out of their cellar room at 57.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#12 Post by rob klafter » September 13th, 2020, 6:09 am

thats a superior value and wine there. The fruit is present. Some call it rustic, some foursquare. Older versions soften but never get intricate, IMHO. i like this corridor of the CdB. From Pernand to Corton to Savigny on down to Pommard are values. Fruit and a fullness that require time

If you want to cellar that and enjoy the value, try Simon Bize aux Vergelesses. This is a much more delicate wine that rewards profoundly with age.


good talk on pernand here

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#13 Post by Paul @bbott » September 13th, 2020, 6:49 am

I have had some 2010s which were relatively lean and 2012s that were rather high in acid, the other end of the spectrum from jammy. I would normally regard the wines of Pernand to be a little restrained, but to soften with a decade of aging.

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#14 Post by William Kelley » September 13th, 2020, 7:38 am

Peter Valiquette wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 2:14 pm
Hmmm, that doesn't sound like the wine I had back in March. My CT note below:

Very well judged ripeness bestows the wine with lovely perfumed red cherry fruit accented with damp forest floor on a foundation of firm but elegant tannins, lifted acidity, and a lingering soft finish. 92+
This note is more in keeping with my experiences of the 2017 in barrel and in bottle.

2017 as a whole, and at Chandon de Briailles in particular, is characterized by moderate ripeness, correct acids and very supple tannins. The fruit is very expressive, but more because of the wines' open personalities than any kind of exaggerated ripeness or long hang time. The domaine is also using less sulfur than in the past, meaning they are even more expressive young. And extraction is gentler, too, which further emphasizes supple fruit. This cuvée ages very well (we drank the delicious 1959 last year) so I'd just wait a bit longer for more complexity to emerge and the youthful fruit to calm down if you find it too much right now...

It's interesting to reflect more generally in light of Andrew's comments, however, that one seldom talked about consequence of making wines in a more and more gentle way, with more whole cluster, shorter macerations, less pigeage, gentler pressing, less new oak, and shorter élevage, is that wines in Burgundy are becoming more and more fruit-driven as a result. In this respect, the concept of gulpable, fruit driven and very lightly structured "glou glou" wines, which emerged out of the natural wine movement, is definitely permeating the Burgundian mainstream and many young producers are drinking wines like this and increasingly making wines like this. In so far as what makes Burgundy taste like "Burgundy" is not just about site influence but also about how the primary fruit is complexified (patinating is the word I am increasingly inclined to use, as I think it describes very well what goes on) in the production process, then you can expect to encounter more and more Burgundies that just taste like fruit and not like "Burgundy" per se. I should emphasized that I don't think that this applies to the Chandon de Briailles wines, but I can think of more and more wines to which it does. Some consumers will surely appreciate a trend that calls into question exactly what Burgundy is, while others will regret that it is harder to find the sorts of wines that, for them, constituted the region's appeal.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#15 Post by Andrew K. » September 13th, 2020, 9:02 am

Thank you William for your very thoughtful and instructive response. Greatly informative and appreciated.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#16 Post by joz€f p1nxten » September 13th, 2020, 12:27 pm

William Kelley wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 7:38 am

It's interesting to reflect more generally in light of Andrew's comments, however, that one seldom talked about consequence of making wines in a more and more gentle way, with more whole cluster, shorter macerations, less pigeage, gentler pressing, less new oak, and shorter élevage, is that wines in Burgundy are becoming more and more fruit-driven as a result. In this respect, the concept of gulpable, fruit driven and very lightly structured "glou glou" wines, which emerged out of the natural wine movement, is definitely permeating the Burgundian mainstream and many young producers are drinking wines like this and increasingly making wines like this. In so far as what makes Burgundy taste like "Burgundy" is not just about site influence but also about how the primary fruit is complexified (patinating is the word I am increasingly inclined to use, as I think it describes very well what goes on) in the production process, then you can expect to encounter more and more Burgundies that just taste like fruit and not like "Burgundy" per se. I should emphasized that I don't think that this applies to the Chandon de Briailles wines, but I can think of more and more wines to which it does. Some consumers will surely appreciate a trend that calls into question exactly what Burgundy is, while others will regret that it is harder to find the sorts of wines that, for them, constituted the region's appeal.
Very, very interesting comment William. I don't have the experience that you but this echoes the things I hear between the lines in Burgundy, including at estates that are renowned for their "vins de garde". Not sure that this means things are moving in the "right" direction, only time will tell.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#17 Post by James Billy » September 13th, 2020, 4:25 pm

William Kelley wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 7:38 am
Peter Valiquette wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 2:14 pm
Hmmm, that doesn't sound like the wine I had back in March. My CT note below:

Very well judged ripeness bestows the wine with lovely perfumed red cherry fruit accented with damp forest floor on a foundation of firm but elegant tannins, lifted acidity, and a lingering soft finish. 92+
This note is more in keeping with my experiences of the 2017 in barrel and in bottle.

2017 as a whole, and at Chandon de Briailles in particular, is characterized by moderate ripeness, correct acids and very supple tannins. The fruit is very expressive, but more because of the wines' open personalities than any kind of exaggerated ripeness or long hang time. The domaine is also using less sulfur than in the past, meaning they are even more expressive young. And extraction is gentler, too, which further emphasizes supple fruit. This cuvée ages very well (we drank the delicious 1959 last year) so I'd just wait a bit longer for more complexity to emerge and the youthful fruit to calm down if you find it too much right now...

It's interesting to reflect more generally in light of Andrew's comments, however, that one seldom talked about consequence of making wines in a more and more gentle way, with more whole cluster, shorter macerations, less pigeage, gentler pressing, less new oak, and shorter élevage, is that wines in Burgundy are becoming more and more fruit-driven as a result. In this respect, the concept of gulpable, fruit driven and very lightly structured "glou glou" wines, which emerged out of the natural wine movement, is definitely permeating the Burgundian mainstream and many young producers are drinking wines like this and increasingly making wines like this. In so far as what makes Burgundy taste like "Burgundy" is not just about site influence but also about how the primary fruit is complexified (patinating is the word I am increasingly inclined to use, as I think it describes very well what goes on) in the production process, then you can expect to encounter more and more Burgundies that just taste like fruit and not like "Burgundy" per se. I should emphasized that I don't think that this applies to the Chandon de Briailles wines, but I can think of more and more wines to which it does. Some consumers will surely appreciate a trend that calls into question exactly what Burgundy is, while others will regret that it is harder to find the sorts of wines that, for them, constituted the region's appeal.
William,

Very interesting, indeed! I don't suppose you can give some examples of Domaines that have moved to a more 'glou glou' (glug, glug!) style? TIA!

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#18 Post by Dan Kravitz » September 13th, 2020, 5:08 pm

I am a big fan of this producer and have never had a wine from them that resembles this note, although I have only tasted a few 2017s, not including this one. A friend of mine has consulted here for a decade. During that time, the wines have moved from a very lean tannic style to more fruit-forward, but I've never had anything remotely 'jammy'.

A big 'plus one' for Delarche for deeply classic, ageworthy Burgundy that is always well balanced. I also find Rapet and Pavelot consistently fine or better.

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#19 Post by William Kelley » September 14th, 2020, 10:39 pm

James Billy wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 4:25 pm

William,

Very interesting, indeed! I don't suppose you can give some examples of Domaines that have moved to a more 'glou glou' (glug, glug!) style? TIA!
I'm a little hesitant to single out anyone without developing my thoughts more completely and explicitly, as the above was intended more as a stimulus to discussion (and to see if anyone else had the same reflection) than a definitive pronouncement, and I wouldn't want any one producer to feel they were being "picked on".... happy to correspond by PM however!
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#20 Post by Dan Samsoe » September 15th, 2020, 12:48 am

Interesting discussion... I have not tried Chandon de Briailles in recent vintages but just had a really good 2011 SLB Aux Fornaux from them.

Otherwise I would recommend Domaine Rollin in Pernand-Vergelesses (I do import them so not objective) but they make really good classic wines both red and white. Some would call them a bit rustic and foursquare, but I think they are great, and they evovle fantastic with af few years in bottle. Escpecially their Pernand-Vergelesses village wines are great value.

Agree with William about the trend in Burgundy right now. Many young winemakers are making very fruity wines that taste fantastic right out of the bottle. It will be interesting to see how they evovle with bottle age.

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#21 Post by Howard Cooper » September 15th, 2020, 4:11 am

William Kelley wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 7:38 am
Peter Valiquette wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 2:14 pm
Hmmm, that doesn't sound like the wine I had back in March. My CT note below:

Very well judged ripeness bestows the wine with lovely perfumed red cherry fruit accented with damp forest floor on a foundation of firm but elegant tannins, lifted acidity, and a lingering soft finish. 92+
This note is more in keeping with my experiences of the 2017 in barrel and in bottle.

2017 as a whole, and at Chandon de Briailles in particular, is characterized by moderate ripeness, correct acids and very supple tannins. The fruit is very expressive, but more because of the wines' open personalities than any kind of exaggerated ripeness or long hang time. The domaine is also using less sulfur than in the past, meaning they are even more expressive young. And extraction is gentler, too, which further emphasizes supple fruit. This cuvée ages very well (we drank the delicious 1959 last year) so I'd just wait a bit longer for more complexity to emerge and the youthful fruit to calm down if you find it too much right now...

It's interesting to reflect more generally in light of Andrew's comments, however, that one seldom talked about consequence of making wines in a more and more gentle way, with more whole cluster, shorter macerations, less pigeage, gentler pressing, less new oak, and shorter élevage, is that wines in Burgundy are becoming more and more fruit-driven as a result. In this respect, the concept of gulpable, fruit driven and very lightly structured "glou glou" wines, which emerged out of the natural wine movement, is definitely permeating the Burgundian mainstream and many young producers are drinking wines like this and increasingly making wines like this. In so far as what makes Burgundy taste like "Burgundy" is not just about site influence but also about how the primary fruit is complexified (patinating is the word I am increasingly inclined to use, as I think it describes very well what goes on) in the production process, then you can expect to encounter more and more Burgundies that just taste like fruit and not like "Burgundy" per se. I should emphasized that I don't think that this applies to the Chandon de Briailles wines, but I can think of more and more wines to which it does. Some consumers will surely appreciate a trend that calls into question exactly what Burgundy is, while others will regret that it is harder to find the sorts of wines that, for them, constituted the region's appeal.
I have been enjoying the wines from Chandon de Briailles for many years (I think the oldest I have had is 1999). I cannot think of a winery over this time period making wines that taste less like a new world pinot noir and was very puzzled by the OP's post. I had a 2007 recently that was wonderful. However, I do note that the last time I visited there (in 2016), we were shown around by a winemaker from Australia. I have assumed that he works under the direction of Claude and François de Nicolay but this thread makes me wonder if there has been any change in direction by the winery. I have not tasted a vintage newer than what I tasted there is 2016 and so cannot comment on the 2017s. Are they making wines differently from the way that the wines there have traditionally been made. I hope not as I am a fan of their wines.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#22 Post by Dan Samsoe » September 15th, 2020, 4:32 am

Andrew K. wrote:
September 12th, 2020, 9:25 am
This area appears to have some pretty good values. However, the first one I tried yesterday 2017 Chandon de Brailles Pernand-Vergelesse 1er Cru Ile Vergelesses was super jammy and ripe with just a hint of sawdust on the nose. More like a CA Pinot than Burg to me. It did do better with some air time, but the fruit was overwhelming regardless.

I tried it because it got great ratings, but now I'm wondering if that's not because lots of the typical critics love the bombastic ripe style.

Is that the typical style of this area? Does it just need some bottle age to mellow and show more interesting characteristics?
Was this the "Sans Souffre" version?

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#23 Post by Andrew K. » September 15th, 2020, 6:02 am

Dan Samsoe wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 4:32 am
Was this the "Sans Souffre" version?
I don't know? Is that on the bottle somewhere? Unfortunately my bottles are in my offsite.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#24 Post by James Billy » September 15th, 2020, 6:08 am

William Kelley wrote:
September 14th, 2020, 10:39 pm
James Billy wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 4:25 pm

William,

Very interesting, indeed! I don't suppose you can give some examples of Domaines that have moved to a more 'glou glou' (glug, glug!) style? TIA!
I'm a little hesitant to single out anyone without developing my thoughts more completely and explicitly, as the above was intended more as a stimulus to discussion (and to see if anyone else had the same reflection) than a definitive pronouncement, and I wouldn't want any one producer to feel they were being "picked on".... happy to correspond by PM however!
William,

I understand. Thanks for the invitation to chat via PM, but I'm sure you're very busy. I really appreciate the thought, though!

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#25 Post by Jay Miller » September 15th, 2020, 6:25 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 4:11 am

I have been enjoying the wines from Chandon de Briailles for many years (I think the oldest I have had is 1999). I cannot think of a winery over this time period making wines that taste less like a new world pinot noir and was very puzzled by the OP's post. I had a 2007 recently that was wonderful. However, I do note that the last time I visited there (in 2016), we were shown around by a winemaker from Australia. I have assumed that he works under the direction of Claude and François de Nicolay but this thread makes me wonder if there has been any change in direction by the winery. I have not tasted a vintage newer than what I tasted there is 2016 and so cannot comment on the 2017s. Are they making wines differently from the way that the wines there have traditionally been made. I hope not as I am a fan of their wines.

I'm pretty much in Howard's camp though I discovered them with the 1998 vintage and have had as far back as 1993. I'd be intellectually disappointed to hear that the style has changed though since I don't buy new release Burgundy any more it doesn't affect me personally.

Regarding William's point one producer which I've seen move in style is Fourrier. I loved their wines in the late 90s, early 2000s but stopped buying due to the price increases after 2005. But occasional tastes at recentish events have made me happy that I stopped buying as they struck me as being much more fruit-driven than the elegant beauties I remembered.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#26 Post by billnanson » September 15th, 2020, 8:09 am

As William notes the approach of the young Turks - and Turkesses - cannot be overlooked.
But Chandon de Briailles other than much, much better housekeeping and more prominent positioning of biodynamics, haven't changed that much since the start of the 2000s - the former with the aid of Australian, Christian, the latter as usually with mainly whole clusters - there are two additional changes that can't be overlooked though - the reduction/rejection of in-elevage sulfur (as is the current vogue) and the warmth of recent vintages. Each has an influence but all are related - it's like iso/shutter speed/aperture though with additional dimensions - but what I'm (and William too, is) saying is that you can't change one without influencing the others, but particularly I'm sure that the climate has much to do with the young drinkability of the reds of today, as there's an element of the same in more staid producers too - certainly vs 10-20 years ago...
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#27 Post by Markus S » September 15th, 2020, 6:00 pm

William Kelley wrote:
September 13th, 2020, 7:38 am
... In so far as what makes Burgundy taste like "Burgundy" is not just about site influence but also about how the primary fruit is complexified (patinating is the word I am increasingly inclined to use, as I think it describes very well what goes on) in the production process, then you can expect to encounter more and more Burgundies that just taste like fruit and not like "Burgundy" per se. I should emphasized that I don't think that this applies to the Chandon de Briailles wines, but I can think of more and more wines to which it does. Some consumers will surely appreciate a trend that calls into question exactly what Burgundy is, while others will regret that it is harder to find the sorts of wines that, for them, constituted the region's appeal.
So much for terroir. [stirthepothal.gif]
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#28 Post by Dan Samsoe » September 15th, 2020, 11:44 pm

Andrew K. wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:02 am
Dan Samsoe wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 4:32 am
Was this the "Sans Souffre" version?
I don't know? Is that on the bottle somewhere? Unfortunately my bottles are in my offsite.
It is on the label. I have only seen the Sans Souffre-version in a wine shop in Beaune, so it's probably not available everywhere.

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#29 Post by James Billy » September 16th, 2020, 1:07 am

Dan Samsoe wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 11:44 pm
Andrew K. wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:02 am
Dan Samsoe wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 4:32 am
Was this the "Sans Souffre" version?
I don't know? Is that on the bottle somewhere? Unfortunately my bottles are in my offsite.
It is on the label. I have only seen the Sans Souffre-version in a wine shop in Beaune, so it's probably not available everywhere.
Makes sense as sulphur is more necessary for wines being shipped overseas where who knows what kind of temperatures it's encountering.

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#30 Post by William Kelley » September 16th, 2020, 2:52 am

Markus S wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:00 pm
So much for terroir. [stirthepothal.gif]
Well, at the end of the day, the terroir doesn't come with instructions as to whether to destem, how much to crush, how often to punch down, how long to macerate, how much new oak to use and from which cooper, etc. The site influence—as modulated by vine / rootstock genetics, viticulture, and harvest date—will express itself in things such as malic-tartaric ratio, thickness of skins, size of berries, degree of maturity, etc; and that will be present in the wine, if its chemistry or concentration are not artificially adjusted, more or less irrespective of the winemaking choices illustrated above.

Now, when actually making wine in Burgundy, for all that I have just said, one does get a sense of what the grapes seem to "want".... but I am not under any illusions that this is anything other than a personal emotion. And different people can arrive at quite different conclusions—even if they share similar aesthetic priorities.
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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#31 Post by Steven Dilley » September 16th, 2020, 6:41 am

Dan Samsoe wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 11:44 pm
Andrew K. wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 6:02 am
Dan Samsoe wrote:
September 15th, 2020, 4:32 am
Was this the "Sans Souffre" version?
I don't know? Is that on the bottle somewhere? Unfortunately my bottles are in my offsite.
It is on the label. I have only seen the Sans Souffre-version in a wine shop in Beaune, so it's probably not available everywhere.
I'm not sure how available it is either, but FYI it is available in Texas.

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Re: Pernand Vergelesses

#32 Post by wspohn » September 16th, 2020, 5:05 pm

That certainly sounds atypical.

My fave at the moment is 2017 Domaine Marius Delarche Pernand-Vergelesses 1er Cru Ile des Vergelesses which is starting to drink well.
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