I don't get the wine auction market

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MBerto
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I don't get the wine auction market

#1 Post by MBerto » June 30th, 2020, 8:47 am

So I'm perusing Wine Bid looking at some classified Bdx. Names don't really matter, other than that it's stuff that's pretty widely available, and has a reasonably liquid secondary market (but not 1st growths or something that would show up at Christies). As I'm spot checking the prices with Wine-Searcher, it's pretty clear people are pricing these so that they'll be the lowest price in the US, or very close it. They have to do this A) because you're taking a bit of a flier on a 'used' bottle B) people want to think they're getting a deal a la Kelly Blue Book and C) Buyer's premium means it's not actually that cheap. That's all fine by me. However I then go to CT, and I see that not only is the offered price (regardless of 'realized price') above the Community Average (side note I've never understood this value - it is, nearly without exception, much cheaper than I can find anything and if I can match this price I feel I'm getting a screaming deal) AND it's above the "Wine Market Journal" price - by a decent margin! Where are all those auctions going on? Is Wine-Bid just for suckers like me? Are there extra costs in those Wine Market Journal prices that make them not representative? What gives?
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#2 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 9:06 am

1) the CT community price is based on what people report. If you are buying older wine then yes it would make sense prices are lower. Another reason prices could be lower is prices in EUR are often lower for French wines
2) the WMJ price is an average - it’s not the last price. It does include the buyers premium so it should be representative of the all in (ex taxes) price

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#3 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 9:17 am

Looking at the WMJ price a bit more closely:

The data is based on the trailing 12-month average of auction lots. The data goes back to 1997, and the most recently available 12 months is used for the valuation. The price is updated quarterly.

So, if you take 2009 Lafite you will see a lot of volatility around the WMJ price (from 697 a bottle about a year ago to 992 a bottle a month ago).

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#4 Post by Geoff F. » June 30th, 2020, 9:37 am

Which auctions does WMJ cover? Are mere mortals allowed in all of them? I ask because sometimes I see bottles I paid a fair amount for (at retail or for back-vintage) go for much less in the auction market, but it doesn't say which auction or when. I would love to get in on some of them though.
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#5 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 9:58 am

Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:37 am
Which auctions does WMJ cover? Are mere mortals allowed in all of them? I ask because sometimes I see bottles I paid a fair amount for (at retail or for back-vintage) go for much less in the auction market, but it doesn't say which auction or when. I would love to get in on some of them though.
All the standard ones:
Acker
Zachys
HDH
Christies
Sothebys
Heritage
K&L
Spectrum
Leland Little
Bonhams

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#6 Post by MBerto » June 30th, 2020, 9:59 am

Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:06 am
1) the CT community price is based on what people report. If you are buying older wine then yes it would make sense prices are lower.
Solely with respect to this point, the only time I can touch this value is when I buy direct from the mailing list, AND the mailing list prices are lower than what it can otherwise be had for at retail
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#7 Post by Jason L Jones » June 30th, 2020, 10:06 am

I don't think WMJ covers WineBid, which may explain part of the discrepancy.

I've purchased dozens of cases of back-vintage Bordeaux from WineBid over the last several years. However, I've noticed over the last few months the pricing of second to fifth growth Bordeaux (and wines of similar pedigree on the right bank) often exceeds retail. The bottles still sell through, so good for WineBid and the sellers, but I'm not a buyer at those prices.

I don't have any evidence, but I'm chalking up the price action to COVID-19 boredom.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#8 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 10:16 am

MBerto wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:59 am
Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:06 am
1) the CT community price is based on what people report. If you are buying older wine then yes it would make sense prices are lower.
Solely with respect to this point, the only time I can touch this value is when I buy direct from the mailing list, AND the mailing list prices are lower than what it can otherwise be had for at retail
Yes, I am just making the point that the mailing list price of 1991 Harlan in 1995 was $65. People have bought it over the years at auction or second hand and reported a Community Average price of $526. If you look at WMJ they have auction pricing on the 91 only back to 2014 with an average annual price as low as $663 and as high as $782 (on CT they show the auction price as $702).

I don’t put much stock into these prices for older wines - newer wines are more interesting. If you take the 2017 DRC La Tache being discussed on the DRC thread you can see people entering their prices as they get allocation and you will notice the community price is lower than what people are writing (about $2039 now vs 3400+ quoted elsewhere) - that is likely because of the list and Europe vs USA pricing. I bet if you look in a year you will see the Community Price closer to the 2016 (at about $2340) and the auction price also inline with that once these bottle become available (about $4000)

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#9 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 10:18 am

Jason L Jones wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 10:06 am
I don't think WMJ covers WineBid, which may explain part of the discrepancy
It doesn’t - WMJ has a note at the bottom stating they “exclude internet auctions”

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#10 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » June 30th, 2020, 10:29 am

MBerto wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:59 am
Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:06 am
1) the CT community price is based on what people report. If you are buying older wine then yes it would make sense prices are lower.
Solely with respect to this point, the only time I can touch this value is when I buy direct from the mailing list, AND the mailing list prices are lower than what it can otherwise be had for at retail
The CT price is an average of the price people actually bought the wine for, whenever they bought it. Since wine prices have been steadily rising in recent years it will be lower than current prices, as it reflects prices that existed years ago.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#11 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 10:39 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 10:29 am
The CT price is an average of the price people actually bought the wine for, whenever they bought it. Since wine prices have been steadily rising in recent years it will be lower than current prices, as it reflects prices that existed years ago.
Yes this is what I was trying to show in my example. The only price pruning CT does is throwing out prices +/- 2 st deviations (to get rid of weird fat finger or normalization problems like wrong currency).

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#12 Post by dteng » June 30th, 2020, 10:51 am

Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:37 am
Which auctions does WMJ cover? Are mere mortals allowed in all of them? I ask because sometimes I see bottles I paid a fair amount for (at retail or for back-vintage) go for much less in the auction market, but it doesn't say which auction or when. I would love to get in on some of them though.
I think the WineSesrcher listed price for auction bottles is the starting bid, not the hammer price.
These can be wildly different.
Bottle X can be listed for $100 but it actually hammered for $280...
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#13 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 10:56 am

dteng wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 10:51 am
I think the WineSesrcher listed price for auction bottles is the starting bid, not the hammer price.
These can be wildly different.
Bottle X can be listed for $100 but it actually hammered for $280...
Yes, WS shows the book price (no buyers premium). The lots update depending on the auction (K and L will have the latest bid) while others are based on a static list and don’t reflect the current bid.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#14 Post by Ian Dorin » June 30th, 2020, 11:06 am

Something to keep in mind that Wine Searcher is not reflective of market value in any way. Just because someone "gives it away" on Wine Searcher does not mean that is the market retail price for something, and conversely, just because someone "asks" $12,000 for a bottle of 1982 Lafite (regardless of condition) does not make it a $12,000 bottle of wine.

Auction listing on W-S are ONLY the opening bid, and do not fluctuate as bids are made.

Wine Market Journal is a trade website, you need a liquor license to access the site, so the CT average of the last 12 months is probably your best barometer (although not perfect). That doesn't include buyer's premium though. It shows what you might be able to reasonably expect in return as the seller. Problem is auctions have good days and bad days. Some houses get better prices than others, etc.
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#15 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 11:14 am

Ian Dorin wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:06 am
Wine Market Journal is a trade website, you need a liquor license to access the site, so the CT average of the last 12 months is probably your best barometer (although not perfect). That doesn't include buyer's premium though. It shows what you might be able to reasonably expect in return as the seller. Problem is auctions have good days and bad days. Some houses get better prices than others, etc.
You don’t need a liquor license. I have an account and I’m a regular consumer.

It does include buyers premium.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#16 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » June 30th, 2020, 11:21 am

dteng wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 10:51 am
Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:37 am
Which auctions does WMJ cover? Are mere mortals allowed in all of them? I ask because sometimes I see bottles I paid a fair amount for (at retail or for back-vintage) go for much less in the auction market, but it doesn't say which auction or when. I would love to get in on some of them though.
I think the WineSesrcher listed price for auction bottles is the starting bid, not the hammer price.
These can be wildly different.
Bottle X can be listed for $100 but it actually hammered for $280...
Not only is the WS price for auction wines the minimum starting bid, but it doesn't even include the buyers premium even though that is guaranteed to be part of the final price! There is no reason not to include the premium as it is readily available from the auction house.

It's kind of messed up how WS misleads people about auction prices. They are effectively providing free advertising to auction houses as compared to retailers by consistently listing the auction prices as the lowest around, even though they usually wouldn't be if they were listed realistically. The advertising value of having your prices consistently appear as the lowest listed prices in the country even when they aren't must be considerable. I wonder if auction houses pay them for maintaining those policies.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#17 Post by Ian Dorin » June 30th, 2020, 11:23 am

Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:14 am
Ian Dorin wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:06 am
Wine Market Journal is a trade website, you need a liquor license to access the site, so the CT average of the last 12 months is probably your best barometer (although not perfect). That doesn't include buyer's premium though. It shows what you might be able to reasonably expect in return as the seller. Problem is auctions have good days and bad days. Some houses get better prices than others, etc.
You don’t need a liquor license. I have an account and I’m a regular consumer.

It does include buyers premium.
Interesting. Is that through CT, or through WMJ direct?

CT includes BP?
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#18 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 11:30 am

Ian Dorin wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:23 am
Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:14 am
Ian Dorin wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:06 am
Wine Market Journal is a trade website, you need a liquor license to access the site, so the CT average of the last 12 months is probably your best barometer (although not perfect). That doesn't include buyer's premium though. It shows what you might be able to reasonably expect in return as the seller. Problem is auctions have good days and bad days. Some houses get better prices than others, etc.
You don’t need a liquor license. I have an account and I’m a regular consumer.

It does include buyers premium.
Interesting. Is that through CT, or through WMJ direct?

CT includes BP?
Yes directly through WMJ. Accessing the API (which I really want) is pretty expensive and only for people in the trade.

The CT auction price is with BP. The community price is expected to be a “final price” because it could have come from a list, store, auction etc. if someone punches in the hammer price w/o BP then that is the community price you see.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#19 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 11:37 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:21 am
dteng wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 10:51 am
Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:37 am
Which auctions does WMJ cover? Are mere mortals allowed in all of them? I ask because sometimes I see bottles I paid a fair amount for (at retail or for back-vintage) go for much less in the auction market, but it doesn't say which auction or when. I would love to get in on some of them though.
I think the WineSesrcher listed price for auction bottles is the starting bid, not the hammer price.
These can be wildly different.
Bottle X can be listed for $100 but it actually hammered for $280...
Not only is the WS price for auction wines the minimum starting bid, but it doesn't even include the buyers premium even though that is guaranteed to be part of the final price! There is no reason not to include the premium as it is readily available from the auction house.

It's kind of messed up how WS misleads people about auction prices. They are effectively providing free advertising to auction houses as compared to retailers by consistently listing the auction prices as the lowest around, even though they usually wouldn't be if they were listed realistically. The advertising value of having your prices consistently appear as the lowest listed prices in the country even when they aren't must be considerable. I wonder if auction houses pay them for maintaining those policies.
I understand your point but my guess is it’s not as nefarious as it looks - I would bet WS doesn’t have a way of ingesting the buyers premium from the auction houses. Is it easy to do? Probably. But given they’ve prioritized features like turning hiding auctions from search results and they write “fees applied” below the price instead of giving you the all-in price I would assume they haven’t received enough user input to get them to push for this feature.

I do agree it should be there. I emailed them asking them for the feature.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#20 Post by Ian Dorin » June 30th, 2020, 11:43 am

Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:30 am
Ian Dorin wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:23 am
Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:14 am


You don’t need a liquor license. I have an account and I’m a regular consumer.

It does include buyers premium.
Interesting. Is that through CT, or through WMJ direct?

CT includes BP?
Yes directly through WMJ. Accessing the API (which I really want) is pretty expensive and only for people in the trade.

The CT auction price is with BP. The community price is expected to be a “final price” because it could have come from a list, store, auction etc. if someone punches in the hammer price w/o BP then that is the community price you see.
That's good news they opened it up. Not like it's much of a secret! People need to be more informed of the TRUE value of their wines if they are sincerely interested in selling.
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#21 Post by MBerto » June 30th, 2020, 11:43 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 10:29 am
The CT price is an average of the price people actually bought the wine for, whenever they bought it. Since wine prices have been steadily rising in recent years it will be lower than current prices, as it reflects prices that existed years ago.
It's the average THE USERS entered into CT - which may not include taxes or shipping, or may have poor FX translations, or may just be wrong. I get that I shouldn't key into it, and don't really, but it still grinds my gears.
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#22 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 11:51 am

Ian Dorin wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:43 am
Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:30 am
Ian Dorin wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:23 am


Interesting. Is that through CT, or through WMJ direct?

CT includes BP?
Yes directly through WMJ. Accessing the API (which I really want) is pretty expensive and only for people in the trade.

The CT auction price is with BP. The community price is expected to be a “final price” because it could have come from a list, store, auction etc. if someone punches in the hammer price w/o BP then that is the community price you see.
That's good news they opened it up. Not like it's much of a secret! People need to be more informed of the TRUE value of their wines if they are sincerely interested in selling.
Yes I completely agree. The pro subscription to WS and WMJ are vital to me when assessing prices. I wish the API access wasn’t better and I wish there was a bit more lot info (lot number, other bottles in auction) because the price variance from auction to auction is just as much about how people are participating as much as the trend value in the wine.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#23 Post by Dale Williams » June 30th, 2020, 1:25 pm

Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:37 am
Which auctions does WMJ cover? Are mere mortals allowed in all of them? I ask because sometimes I see bottles I paid a fair amount for (at retail or for back-vintage) go for much less in the auction market, but it doesn't say which auction or when. I would love to get in on some of them though.
One thing to consider if you are looking at WMJ values on midlevel Bordeaux (as OP was discussing) is that in almost all cases they are multi-bottle lots, often cases. So WMJ may say a wine you paid $100 for is being sold for $85, but you'd have to spend a grand to get that pricing (I realize there is actual a premium for 12 bottle OWC lots on top wines, but not really for most 3rd growths from good not great vintages).

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#24 Post by Geoff F. » June 30th, 2020, 3:07 pm

Dale Williams wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 1:25 pm
Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:37 am
Which auctions does WMJ cover? Are mere mortals allowed in all of them? I ask because sometimes I see bottles I paid a fair amount for (at retail or for back-vintage) go for much less in the auction market, but it doesn't say which auction or when. I would love to get in on some of them though.
One thing to consider if you are looking at WMJ values on midlevel Bordeaux (as OP was discussing) is that in almost all cases they are multi-bottle lots, often cases. So WMJ may say a wine you paid $100 for is being sold for $85, but you'd have to spend a grand to get that pricing (I realize there is actual a premium for 12 bottle OWC lots on top wines, but not really for most 3rd growths from good not great vintages).
There are wines I love that I wouldn't mind getting a case of. Taking a concrete example, I paid $121 for a bottle of 2015 Jean Michel Guillon Gevrey Chambertin Petite Chapelle. Its current USA best price on wine-searcher.com is $111 assuming I buy a whole case ($89-90/bottle in the UK again by the case). Auction value according to WMJ via Cellartracker is $79.64, much cheaper than even the cheapest global price. Where can I find the auctions where that sold so I know which auction houses to frequent more often?
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#25 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 3:25 pm

Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 3:07 pm
Dale Williams wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 1:25 pm
Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:37 am
Which auctions does WMJ cover? Are mere mortals allowed in all of them? I ask because sometimes I see bottles I paid a fair amount for (at retail or for back-vintage) go for much less in the auction market, but it doesn't say which auction or when. I would love to get in on some of them though.
One thing to consider if you are looking at WMJ values on midlevel Bordeaux (as OP was discussing) is that in almost all cases they are multi-bottle lots, often cases. So WMJ may say a wine you paid $100 for is being sold for $85, but you'd have to spend a grand to get that pricing (I realize there is actual a premium for 12 bottle OWC lots on top wines, but not really for most 3rd growths from good not great vintages).
There are wines I love that I wouldn't mind getting a case of. Taking a concrete example, I paid $121 for a bottle of 2015 Jean Michel Guillon Gevrey Chambertin Petite Chapelle. Its current best price on wine-searcher.com is $111 assuming I buy a whole case ($89-90/bottle in the UK again by the case). Auction value according to WMJ via Cellartracker is $79.64, much cheaper than even the cheapest global price. Where can I find the auctions where that sold so I know which auction houses to frequent more often?
The more I look into this the more problems I find. This is a good example of how the data isn’t perfect. There are no sales in WMJ for the 2015. There are only recorded sales for the 02, 05, 10 and 11 vintages with the latest sale in June of the 10s (Brentwood Wine Company) at 89/bottle.

I can’t make out how they are choosing to show a price for the 15 vintage nor can I figure out how they decide when to show an auction price vs not (for example the 14s don’t have a listed auction price).

All in - don’t rely on the Auction Price on CT especially for bottles with low liquidity.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#26 Post by Alex Valdes » June 30th, 2020, 7:45 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:21 am
dteng wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 10:51 am
Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 9:37 am
Which auctions does WMJ cover? Are mere mortals allowed in all of them? I ask because sometimes I see bottles I paid a fair amount for (at retail or for back-vintage) go for much less in the auction market, but it doesn't say which auction or when. I would love to get in on some of them though.
I think the WineSesrcher listed price for auction bottles is the starting bid, not the hammer price.
These can be wildly different.
Bottle X can be listed for $100 but it actually hammered for $280...
Not only is the WS price for auction wines the minimum starting bid, but it doesn't even include the buyers premium even though that is guaranteed to be part of the final price! There is no reason not to include the premium as it is readily available from the auction house.

It's kind of messed up how WS misleads people about auction prices. They are effectively providing free advertising to auction houses as compared to retailers by consistently listing the auction prices as the lowest around, even though they usually wouldn't be if they were listed realistically. The advertising value of having your prices consistently appear as the lowest listed prices in the country even when they aren't must be considerable. I wonder if auction houses pay them for maintaining those policies.
I heard back from WS - giving you the ability to see auction pricing inclusive of the BP is in their development pipeline. No clue how long it will take. Looking forward to this feature

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#27 Post by Geoff F. » June 30th, 2020, 8:39 pm

Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 3:25 pm
Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 3:07 pm
Dale Williams wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 1:25 pm


One thing to consider if you are looking at WMJ values on midlevel Bordeaux (as OP was discussing) is that in almost all cases they are multi-bottle lots, often cases. So WMJ may say a wine you paid $100 for is being sold for $85, but you'd have to spend a grand to get that pricing (I realize there is actual a premium for 12 bottle OWC lots on top wines, but not really for most 3rd growths from good not great vintages).
There are wines I love that I wouldn't mind getting a case of. Taking a concrete example, I paid $121 for a bottle of 2015 Jean Michel Guillon Gevrey Chambertin Petite Chapelle. Its current best price on wine-searcher.com is $111 assuming I buy a whole case ($89-90/bottle in the UK again by the case). Auction value according to WMJ via Cellartracker is $79.64, much cheaper than even the cheapest global price. Where can I find the auctions where that sold so I know which auction houses to frequent more often?
The more I look into this the more problems I find. This is a good example of how the data isn’t perfect. There are no sales in WMJ for the 2015. There are only recorded sales for the 02, 05, 10 and 11 vintages with the latest sale in June of the 10s (Brentwood Wine Company) at 89/bottle.

I can’t make out how they are choosing to show a price for the 15 vintage nor can I figure out how they decide when to show an auction price vs not (for example the 14s don’t have a listed auction price).

All in - don’t rely on the Auction Price on CT especially for bottles with low liquidity.
Thank you - that answers a lot. I'd often seen that producer go for significantly less at auction according to Cellartracker, yet when I look around, it's nowhere to be found.
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#28 Post by Ethan Abraham » July 1st, 2020, 4:06 am

Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 8:39 pm
Alex Valdes wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 3:25 pm
Geoff F. wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 3:07 pm


There are wines I love that I wouldn't mind getting a case of. Taking a concrete example, I paid $121 for a bottle of 2015 Jean Michel Guillon Gevrey Chambertin Petite Chapelle. Its current best price on wine-searcher.com is $111 assuming I buy a whole case ($89-90/bottle in the UK again by the case). Auction value according to WMJ via Cellartracker is $79.64, much cheaper than even the cheapest global price. Where can I find the auctions where that sold so I know which auction houses to frequent more often?
The more I look into this the more problems I find. This is a good example of how the data isn’t perfect. There are no sales in WMJ for the 2015. There are only recorded sales for the 02, 05, 10 and 11 vintages with the latest sale in June of the 10s (Brentwood Wine Company) at 89/bottle.

I can’t make out how they are choosing to show a price for the 15 vintage nor can I figure out how they decide when to show an auction price vs not (for example the 14s don’t have a listed auction price).

All in - don’t rely on the Auction Price on CT especially for bottles with low liquidity.
Thank you - that answers a lot. I'd often seen that producer go for significantly less at auction according to Cellartracker, yet when I look around, it's nowhere to be found.
That is a weird example. Worth asking on CT forum what is going on. That being said it is fairly easy to pick up many recent release mid-level Bordeaux and burgundy at auction at huge discounts to retail. (Well, huge for burgundy, small but significant for bdx). HDH must have sold 500 cases of 2016 Bordeaux at auction in the last year. Burgundy (and Rhone) you have to look around more.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#29 Post by Alex Valdes » July 1st, 2020, 4:27 am

Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 4:06 am
That is a weird example. Worth asking on CT forum what is going on.
I found a bunch of these - I will send a message asking for more insight into the pricing algo
Ethan Abraham wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 4:06 am
That being said it is fairly easy to pick up many recent release mid-level Bordeaux and burgundy at auction at huge discounts to retail. (Well, huge for burgundy, small but significant for bdx). HDH must have sold 500 cases of 2016 Bordeaux at auction in the last year. Burgundy (and Rhone) you have to look around more.
Agree you have a good shot of getting the best prices at auction but 1) it doesn’t mean everyone transacts at the best price and 2) the synthesized auction price quoted on CT is probably going to be too lagged to be a reliable midpoint of the auction market.

If you really want to know what you should pay, I suggest
* getting an account at WMJ and looking at the detailed transaction breakdown and look at the trend and remove odd outliers
* get a pro WS acct and look at the retail offers to get a ceiling
* email any of the major houses - they have been really helpful in giving advice. They have a good sense of the market

There are other analytics you can do to get a better sense of where prices are likely going due to various pressures evidenced in the data - but that is for another post [wink.gif] .

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#30 Post by Lonnie F. » July 1st, 2020, 5:21 am

I was browsing HDH. What do OC and OWC stand for?
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#31 Post by Alex Valdes » July 1st, 2020, 5:37 am

Lonnie F. wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 5:21 am
I was browsing HDH. What do OC and OWC stand for?
OC = Original Carton (sometimes OCB for cardboard box)
OWC = Original Wood Case

At the back of the catalogue you will find a page like this explaining the shorthand used throughout (this is from a current Acker catalogue).
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#32 Post by Br1an Th0rne » July 1st, 2020, 7:28 am

MBerto wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 8:47 am
So I'm perusing Wine Bid looking at some classified Bdx. Names don't really matter, other than that it's stuff that's pretty widely available, and has a reasonably liquid secondary market (but not 1st growths or something that would show up at Christies). As I'm spot checking the prices with Wine-Searcher, it's pretty clear people are pricing these so that they'll be the lowest price in the US, or very close it. They have to do this A) because you're taking a bit of a flier on a 'used' bottle B) people want to think they're getting a deal a la Kelly Blue Book and C) Buyer's premium means it's not actually that cheap. That's all fine by me. However I then go to CT, and I see that not only is the offered price (regardless of 'realized price') above the Community Average (side note I've never understood this value - it is, nearly without exception, much cheaper than I can find anything and if I can match this price I feel I'm getting a screaming deal) AND it's above the "Wine Market Journal" price - by a decent margin! Where are all those auctions going on? Is Wine-Bid just for suckers like me? Are there extra costs in those Wine Market Journal prices that make them not representative? What gives?
Winebid’s auction prices for classified growth Bordeaux isn’t usually competitive with major auction houses. I keep seeing 2000 Pontet Canet selling offered for $135 plus premium and tax, which takes it to $170 per bottle. Lunacy! I bought a case three months ago via Zachys, $100 inclusive of premium tax. HDH auction several cases last week for $119 all in. It’s available on WS-pro for $130 to $150 in many places. Same deal for 2000 Leoville Poyferre, $160 all in at auction, $200 all in at winebid.

I bought a lot of Bordeaux from winebid during the 2000-2012 timeframe, but for me the prices just don’t make sense any longer. For other regions, the prices tend to be more competitive, and there are good deals to be found. I’ve subsrcribed to Wine Market Jorunal for the last several years, and it is a wonderful tool, and have “saved” more than enough money to justify the subscription. Perhaps ignorance was bliss back in the “old days” before CT and WMJ, or my purchasing practices have changed (OWC vs single bottles) but for me, it’s rare that winebid makes sense these days for purchasing Bordeaux wines.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#33 Post by Alex Valdes » July 1st, 2020, 7:39 am

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:28 am
Winebid’s auction prices for classified growth Bordeaux isn’t usually competitive with major auction houses. I keep seeing 2000 Pontet Canet selling offered for $135 plus premium and tax, which takes it to $170 per bottle. Lunacy! I bought a case three months ago via Zachys, $100 inclusive of premium tax. HDH auction several cases last week for $119 all in. It’s available on WS-pro for $130 to $150 in many places. Same deal for 2000 Leoville Poyferre, $160 all in at auction, $200 all in at winebid.

I bought a lot of Bordeaux from winebid during the 2000-2012 timeframe, but for me the prices just don’t make sense any longer. For other regions, the prices tend to be more competitive, and there are good deals to be found. I’ve subsrcribed to Wine Market Jorunal for the last several years, and it is a wonderful tool, and have “saved” more than enough money to justify the subscription. Perhaps ignorance was bliss back in the “old days” before CT and WMJ, or my purchasing practices have changed (OWC vs single bottles) but for me, it’s rare that winebid makes sense these days for purchasing Bordeaux wines.
This is helpful Brian. I never look at Wine Bid so didn’t realize the price disconnect was so large.

Why do you think people use Wine Bid over the other options?

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#34 Post by MikeL238 » July 1st, 2020, 7:56 am

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:28 am
MBerto wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 8:47 am
So I'm perusing Wine Bid looking at some classified Bdx. Names don't really matter, other than that it's stuff that's pretty widely available, and has a reasonably liquid secondary market (but not 1st growths or something that would show up at Christies). As I'm spot checking the prices with Wine-Searcher, it's pretty clear people are pricing these so that they'll be the lowest price in the US, or very close it. They have to do this A) because you're taking a bit of a flier on a 'used' bottle B) people want to think they're getting a deal a la Kelly Blue Book and C) Buyer's premium means it's not actually that cheap. That's all fine by me. However I then go to CT, and I see that not only is the offered price (regardless of 'realized price') above the Community Average (side note I've never understood this value - it is, nearly without exception, much cheaper than I can find anything and if I can match this price I feel I'm getting a screaming deal) AND it's above the "Wine Market Journal" price - by a decent margin! Where are all those auctions going on? Is Wine-Bid just for suckers like me? Are there extra costs in those Wine Market Journal prices that make them not representative? What gives?
Winebid’s auction prices for classified growth Bordeaux isn’t usually competitive with major auction houses. I keep seeing 2000 Pontet Canet selling offered for $135 plus premium and tax, which takes it to $170 per bottle. Lunacy! I bought a case three months ago via Zachys, $100 inclusive of premium tax. HDH auction several cases last week for $119 all in. It’s available on WS-pro for $130 to $150 in many places. Same deal for 2000 Leoville Poyferre, $160 all in at auction, $200 all in at winebid.

I bought a lot of Bordeaux from winebid during the 2000-2012 timeframe, but for me the prices just don’t make sense any longer. For other regions, the prices tend to be more competitive, and there are good deals to be found. I’ve subsrcribed to Wine Market Jorunal for the last several years, and it is a wonderful tool, and have “saved” more than enough money to justify the subscription. Perhaps ignorance was bliss back in the “old days” before CT and WMJ, or my purchasing practices have changed (OWC vs single bottles) but for me, it’s rare that winebid makes sense these days for purchasing Bordeaux wines.
I agree. For whatever reason, it seems to me that they price their Bordeaux a lot higher than wines from other regions. All in prices for some of higher end Bordeaux are a lot more than what the retail stores are selling for. Maybe Bordeaux attract more international buyers who usually wouldn't be able to purchase from US retailers?
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#35 Post by MBerto » July 1st, 2020, 8:01 am

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:28 am
I keep seeing 2000 Pontet Canet selling offered for $135 plus premium and tax
Thanks Brian, that's helpful. On the point above, I see it's still offered. I think what is going on in these cases is the seller keeps offering it at that price - and it's not selling. If it doesn't sell in a given week, seller can just roll to the next week.

Personally I used WB for a few reasons - you can get decent prices (but not great) on stuff that might not be available elsewhere at all - oddball back vintages of Oregon Pinot, Rioja, lesser Bdx in the ~$50 range. In addition, compared to the other auction sites, the user experience is way better. Website is really easy to navigate, search, save searches, etc. Customer service is generally great as well.
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#36 Post by Alex Valdes » July 1st, 2020, 8:16 am

MBerto wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 8:01 am
Personally I used WB for a few reasons - you can get decent prices (but not great) on stuff that might not be available elsewhere at all - oddball back vintages of Oregon Pinot, Rioja, lesser Bdx in the ~$50 range. In addition, compared to the other auction sites, the user experience is way better. Website is really easy to navigate, search, save searches, etc. Customer service is generally great as well.
This is what I would have guessed: lower total lot prices due to many single bottle lots and app/site user experience.

Most auction sites have terrible UIs. The best ones, for me, are HDH (by a wide margin) and Acker. Quickly looking at Wine Bid I find it too “store like” but they do offer the best lot intelligence out there (comprehensive reviews, price charts, detailed photos, etc).

I personally like having the ability to download a catalogue in XL or quickly zooming through lots by producer (using the HDH favorite producer feature), using the good filter features (years, size, region, estimate), and doing group bidding (HDH bid groups). Of course, the real appeal is catalogue depth which helps get best execution.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#37 Post by Br1an Th0rne » July 1st, 2020, 8:38 am

Alex Valdes wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:39 am
Br1an Th0rne wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:28 am
Winebid’s auction prices for classified growth Bordeaux isn’t usually competitive with major auction houses. I keep seeing 2000 Pontet Canet selling offered for $135 plus premium and tax, which takes it to $170 per bottle. Lunacy! I bought a case three months ago via Zachys, $100 inclusive of premium tax. HDH auction several cases last week for $119 all in. It’s available on WS-pro for $130 to $150 in many places. Same deal for 2000 Leoville Poyferre, $160 all in at auction, $200 all in at winebid.

I bought a lot of Bordeaux from winebid during the 2000-2012 timeframe, but for me the prices just don’t make sense any longer. For other regions, the prices tend to be more competitive, and there are good deals to be found. I’ve subsrcribed to Wine Market Jorunal for the last several years, and it is a wonderful tool, and have “saved” more than enough money to justify the subscription. Perhaps ignorance was bliss back in the “old days” before CT and WMJ, or my purchasing practices have changed (OWC vs single bottles) but for me, it’s rare that winebid makes sense these days for purchasing Bordeaux wines.
This is helpful Brian. I never look at Wine Bid so didn’t realize the price disconnect was so large.

Why do you think people use Wine Bid over the other options?
I was happy purchasing Bordeaux at auction via winebid, particularly back vintages, for many years...from 2000 to around 2012. I took a bit of a break in purchasing Bordeaux between 2012 and 2017 (disgust with Bordelais pricing choices with the 2010 vintage pushed me over the edge, and my cellar was full) and when I became and active buyer again in 2017, I was discouraged with the high prices for 1982 - 2000 Bordeaux on winebid. Their buyer premiums had went up, sales tax was then added, and I started looking for other avenues. WMJ really opened my eyes to what the true “going rate” was for individual wines. I was surprised at how “easy” it was to participate in auctions via traditional houses, e.g. HDH, Zachys, Acker et al, and many of them have weekly internet auctions much like winebid, in addition to their major auctions that are typically held every other month or so. The prices are usually lower for Bordeaux, the selection is greater, and the ability to participate virtually is quite easy and dangerously enjoyable!

I think many folks use winebid today to purchase Bordeaux because it is convenient, the customer service is top notch, you can purchase single bottles, the selection is good, and it is safe. I continued to use winebid for Bordeaux purchases because I thought that the traditional auction houses were too hard, but the truth is I just didn’t know any better. This explanation probably comes across harsher than intended...looking at CT is see I’ve purchased almost 35% of all Bordeaux I’ve ever owned since 2000 at winebid, but less than 10% since 2018, and none since early 2019.

I still think winebid is very competitive for other regions, and I continue to happily use their services for such; just won several Napa Bordeaux blends last week!

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#38 Post by Br1an Th0rne » July 1st, 2020, 8:46 am

MBerto wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 8:01 am
Br1an Th0rne wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:28 am
I keep seeing 2000 Pontet Canet selling offered for $135 plus premium and tax
Thanks Brian, that's helpful. On the point above, I see it's still offered. I think what is going on in these cases is the seller keeps offering it at that price - and it's not selling. If it doesn't sell in a given week, seller can just roll to the next week.
Looking at the “history” tab, I see winebid has sold 17 bottles of 2000 Pontet Canet in June at $135++, for an all in price of $170 per bottle!

I agree with you completely though, it is great for picking up wines, in smaller quantities especially, for other regions. And if I’d never tasted a mature vintage of pontet canet before, and wanted to purchase a single bottle, I’d be hesitant to purchase a full case at a traditional auction house. It does look like a great venue to use if you’re considering to sell / auction off some classic Bordeaux in single bottles or small lots!

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#39 Post by J.Vizuete » July 1st, 2020, 8:47 am

Alex Valdes wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:39 am
Br1an Th0rne wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:28 am
Winebid’s auction prices for classified growth Bordeaux isn’t usually competitive with major auction houses. I keep seeing 2000 Pontet Canet selling offered for $135 plus premium and tax, which takes it to $170 per bottle. Lunacy! I bought a case three months ago via Zachys, $100 inclusive of premium tax. HDH auction several cases last week for $119 all in. It’s available on WS-pro for $130 to $150 in many places. Same deal for 2000 Leoville Poyferre, $160 all in at auction, $200 all in at winebid.

I bought a lot of Bordeaux from winebid during the 2000-2012 timeframe, but for me the prices just don’t make sense any longer. For other regions, the prices tend to be more competitive, and there are good deals to be found. I’ve subsrcribed to Wine Market Jorunal for the last several years, and it is a wonderful tool, and have “saved” more than enough money to justify the subscription. Perhaps ignorance was bliss back in the “old days” before CT and WMJ, or my purchasing practices have changed (OWC vs single bottles) but for me, it’s rare that winebid makes sense these days for purchasing Bordeaux wines.
This is helpful Brian. I never look at Wine Bid so didn’t realize the price disconnect was so large.

Why do you think people use Wine Bid over the other options?
For many reasons:
- diversity of lots across regions and price spectrum - Many if not most of the Winebid lots aren't traded at the bigger houses. But there are lots of board darling wines, often mailing list only, that I'm waitlisted for but get to try, sometimes at a discount (Cayuse, Saxum, Rhys for example).
- ability to purchase singles keeps prices down. I've been able to acquire individual bottles of Ramonet with age, Gonon, Vatan, Dujac, Keller, etc. with a relatively low cost of entry.
- and the ability to ship where some major houses can't (HDH won't ship to me in Tx, for example).

And although Brian's 2000 Bordeaux examples are certainly fair, I can likewise point to numerous Winebid lots I've won at way below auction or CT avg at the same time (1989 VCC for $150 all in last year, 2017 Pierre Morey Meursault Tessons for $62)
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#40 Post by MikeL238 » July 1st, 2020, 8:55 am

I agree-the fact that you can buy a single bottle, which is somewhat rare for traditional auction houses, is one of the main reasons I use winebid.
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#41 Post by Alex Valdes » July 1st, 2020, 9:01 am

MikeL238 wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 8:55 am
I agree-the fact that you can buy a single bottle, which is somewhat rare for traditional auction houses, is one of the main reasons I use winebid.
This has changed a lot in just the last few years. Take Acker’s latest internet weekly: 452 single bottle lots out of 1340; 800 lots estimated under $400. Zachys zAuctions are less frequent but have a similar trend.

This is the charm of the wine market: it’s highly fragmented into pockets of buyers and sellers making the process of price discovery and market clearing real work and, for those who like that sort of thing, an added adventure on the way to some tasty grape juice.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#42 Post by MikeL238 » July 1st, 2020, 9:04 am

Alex Valdes wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 9:01 am
MikeL238 wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 8:55 am
I agree-the fact that you can buy a single bottle, which is somewhat rare for traditional auction houses, is one of the main reasons I use winebid.
This has changed a lot in just the last few years. Take Acker’s latest internet weekly: 452 single bottle lots out of 1340; 800 lots estimated under $400. Zachys zAuctions are less frequent but have a similar trend.

This is the charm of the wine market: it’s highly fragmented into pockets of buyers and sellers making the process of price discovery and market clearing real work and, for those who like that sort of thing, an added adventure on the way to some tasty grape juice.
Not that I really look for those super high end bottles, but Acker's reputation of having sold Rudi's wines and continuing to put up questionable bottles put me off from buying from them. It's really a personal choice I guess. Plus the buyer's premium is 24% for Acker whereas Winebid is 17%.
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#43 Post by Mattstolz » July 1st, 2020, 9:16 am

I always just figure that the cellartracker price is so low because people’s significant others have access to the CT as well and we’re all trying to convince our spouses we don’t spend THAT MUCH on wine.

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#44 Post by Alex Valdes » July 1st, 2020, 9:33 am

MikeL238 wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 9:04 am
Alex Valdes wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 9:01 am
MikeL238 wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 8:55 am
I agree-the fact that you can buy a single bottle, which is somewhat rare for traditional auction houses, is one of the main reasons I use winebid.
This has changed a lot in just the last few years. Take Acker’s latest internet weekly: 452 single bottle lots out of 1340; 800 lots estimated under $400. Zachys zAuctions are less frequent but have a similar trend.

This is the charm of the wine market: it’s highly fragmented into pockets of buyers and sellers making the process of price discovery and market clearing real work and, for those who like that sort of thing, an added adventure on the way to some tasty grape juice.
Not that I really look for those super high end bottles, but Acker's reputation of having sold Rudi's wines and continuing to put up questionable bottles put me off from buying from them. It's really a personal choice I guess. Plus the buyer's premium is 24% for Acker whereas Winebid is 17%.
I hear you on the Acker thing. I am not purchasing 10k a pop lots - at the lower levels I think it’s ok (other than the supporting people who you might believe are unscrupulous - that is something I wrestle with as well).

As for the BP I find it usually washes out. Take K and L: they have a 5% BP but the hammer price goes up to meet the all in price seen at the higher BP auctions. At the end of the day it’s the all-in price (with taxes, shipped) that I compare when making a buying decision

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#45 Post by Alex Valdes » July 1st, 2020, 9:34 am

Mattstolz wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 9:16 am
I always just figure that the cellartracker price is so low because people’s significant others have access to the CT as well and we’re all trying to convince our spouses we don’t spend THAT MUCH on wine.
[rofl.gif] You are probably right!

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#46 Post by RMann » July 1st, 2020, 1:33 pm

Hi all, great thread and very astute comments. To summarize, and possibly add a little more perspective:

1. The data and pricing on WineBid, CT, WMJ, Wine-Searcher all not exact matches. As collectors, you all rightly know that every bottle of 82 Mouton listed online is not the same. Pricing is highly dependent on provenance, item quality (fill, label condition), selling context (sold as a single bottle, case lot, mixed lot), timing (last week, last year, last decade), currency, physical location, auction/retailer reputation, etc. Also as noted, many of these sources are self-reported, and various folks have various reasons for reporting in numbers in different ways (see #3 below).

2. Wine collectors, like all consumers, have various reasons for shopping on different sites, with price being only one factor. Just like eBay Motors vs BringATrailer, Chronext vs Crown&Caliber, Walmart vs Amazon, or even Amazon Direct vs Amazon Marketplace/resellers- the user experience, item descriptions, photos, convenience, ease of use, customer service and many other factors cause people to shop, and sometimes even pay a little or a lot more, at one place vs another.

3. Don't forget that each of the data sources mentioned are all businesses with their own business models, and they are all using the data in different ways to promote those models. Some use the data to price and sell products (auction houses), some use it to sell advertising (Wine Searcher), some use it to sell subscriptions (WMJ and CellarTracker). And, for example, WMJ is owned by a retailer/auction house, but don't publish their own stats. We're in the information economy, the information is valuable and everyone is monetizing it differently. Just as @MBerto kicked off this thread talking about Kelly Blue Book- that's a data business that makes money off of dealers and manufacturers and others- and quotes different prices if you are a seller than a buyer.

WineBid, like other auction houses, is a "market maker"- we rely on the data and provide the best product information and customer service we can, to connect sellers and global buyers at prices they are willing to transact, based on our 20 years of data and our very fresh and real-time weekly bidding activity. We're all incentivized to price things at what they will sell at, and let you, the market, decide to bid them up or let someone else buy them.

Hope that's helpful as a broad summary, fair and balanced about the wine data industry overall. I don't want to be "too commercial" about WineBid. For those of you I haven't interacted with yet, I'm always happy to take private questions about WineBid by DM or email.

Happy tasting and sharing everyone, have a safe 4th of July weekend and hope to see you at the auction!
Russ Mann, CEO WineBid

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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#47 Post by Alex Valdes » July 1st, 2020, 2:15 pm

RMann wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 1:33 pm
Hi all, great thread and very astute comments. To summarize, and possibly add a little more perspective:

1. The data and pricing on WineBid, CT, WMJ, Wine-Searcher all not exact matches. As collectors, you all rightly know that every bottle of 82 Mouton listed online is not the same. Pricing is highly dependent on provenance, item quality (fill, label condition), selling context (sold as a single bottle, case lot, mixed lot), timing (last week, last year, last decade), currency, physical location, auction/retailer reputation, etc. Also as noted, many of these sources are self-reported, and various folks have various reasons for reporting in numbers in different ways (see #3 below).

2. Wine collectors, like all consumers, have various reasons for shopping on different sites, with price being only one factor. Just like eBay Motors vs BringATrailer, Chronext vs Crown&Caliber, Walmart vs Amazon, or even Amazon Direct vs Amazon Marketplace/resellers- the user experience, item descriptions, photos, convenience, ease of use, customer service and many other factors cause people to shop, and sometimes even pay a little or a lot more, at one place vs another.

3. Don't forget that each of the data sources mentioned are all businesses with their own business models, and they are all using the data in different ways to promote those models. Some use the data to price and sell products (auction houses), some use it to sell advertising (Wine Searcher), some use it to sell subscriptions (WMJ and CellarTracker). And, for example, WMJ is owned by a retailer/auction house, but don't publish their own stats. We're in the information economy, the information is valuable and everyone is monetizing it differently. Just as @MBerto kicked off this thread talking about Kelly Blue Book- that's a data business that makes money off of dealers and manufacturers and others- and quotes different prices if you are a seller than a buyer.

WineBid, like other auction houses, is a "market maker"- we rely on the data and provide the best product information and customer service we can, to connect sellers and global buyers at prices they are willing to transact, based on our 20 years of data and our very fresh and real-time weekly bidding activity. We're all incentivized to price things at what they will sell at, and let you, the market, decide to bid them up or let someone else buy them.

Hope that's helpful as a broad summary, fair and balanced about the wine data industry overall. I don't want to be "too commercial" about WineBid. For those of you I haven't interacted with yet, I'm always happy to take private questions about WineBid by DM or email.

Happy tasting and sharing everyone, have a safe 4th of July weekend and hope to see you at the auction!
I am new to this board and didn’t know you were on here Russ. I’m sure others have said this, but for me it’s great to have you replying on a thread like this - makes me feel like you, as CEO of a marketplace for wine drinkers / collectors, are really engaged. Really cool.
Last edited by Alex Valdes on July 1st, 2020, 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Br1an Th0rne
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#48 Post by Br1an Th0rne » July 1st, 2020, 2:24 pm

And if it wasn’t clear, Winebid”s leadership and transparent communication is a big plus as well! Russ’s participation here in wineberserkers is fairly unique, and most appreciated.
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RMann
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#49 Post by RMann » July 1st, 2020, 2:41 pm

Alex Valdes wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 9:34 am
Mattstolz wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 9:16 am
I always just figure that the cellartracker price is so low because people’s significant others have access to the CT as well and we’re all trying to convince our spouses we don’t spend THAT MUCH on wine.
[rofl.gif] You are probably right!
[cheers.gif] This is the REAL answer!
Russ Mann, CEO WineBid

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Rich Brown
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Re: I don't get the wine auction market

#50 Post by Rich Brown » July 2nd, 2020, 8:10 am

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 2:24 pm
And if it wasn’t clear, Winebid”s leadership and transparent communication is a big plus as well! Russ’s participation here in wineberserkers is fairly unique, and most appreciated.
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I 100% agree with this. Awesome having Russ on here participating!

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