Wine Berserkers - international wine social media, online community, and discussion

William Kelley

I always find it fascinating how many people look for value Pinot all over the world but not the Cotes Chalonnaise. As for the immediate question, the best Rose I have had was a Sancerre from Cotat. I always find it fascinating how people like to thread drift. [wink.gif] Don't I get points for disc...

William Kelley

I think I found that as I worked my way up the ladder I actually liked the wines less. In my view they became too large scaled, and I actually liked this entry level bottling best. Interesting to hear you say this. Which vintage was being shown? While the wines certainly do gain in texture and conc...

William Kelley

Andy, the dark side is price escalation and speculation. Wineries and merchants use the scores for marketing purposes. And many of the top wines are not for drinking any more. They rest in cellars in hope of a profit. All that has a lot to do with scores, the internet and so forth. We have gotten i...

William Kelley

B. Buzzini wrote: ↑
July 9th, 2020, 8:37 am
William...know of any whites from Clos de Tart?

I do not!

William Kelley

Not from Sancerre is Domaine de l'Ecu's "Ange" bottling, which has been really great when I've had it!

Historically Sancerre was almost exclusively Pinot Noir, I think, and I would imagine we will see more and more of it again in the future as things get warmer.

William Kelley

Steven Dilley wrote: ↑
July 7th, 2020, 7:55 am

Jeremy Holmes wrote: ↑
July 7th, 2020, 3:09 am

p. raghib wrote: ↑
July 6th, 2020, 9:24 pm
Dom leflaive
They do a Negoce Charmes-Chambertin.
They also made a Blagny 1er "Sous le Dos d'Ane," though I haven't seen or had a bottle of it since the '02 vintage.

Yeah, they replanted with Chardonnay, it's now AOC Meursault 1er Cru with the same lieu-dit name.

William Kelley

Greg K wrote: ↑
July 7th, 2020, 8:37 am

c fu wrote: ↑
July 6th, 2020, 10:27 pm

p. raghib wrote: ↑
July 6th, 2020, 9:22 pm
Hubert lignier
Lamarche
Lignier makes an aligote
And a white Fixin.

And a Saint-Romain!

William Kelley

joz€f p1nxten wrote: ↑
July 4th, 2020, 4:51 am
Claude Dugat?

If one wants to really get into it, back when there was one Dugat domaine (today, as you know, those family holdings are split into Claude Dugat, Dugat-Py and Humbert) they used to produce some whites in the combe. And they still have a bottle or two from the 1930s.

William Kelley

Sean S y d n e y wrote: ↑
July 7th, 2020, 4:35 pm
Special thanks to William Kelley for being a tireless advocate for the Mâcon and every producer doing admirable work au sud de la Côte de Beaune.

Thank you! It's certainly one of the regions I most enjoy reviewing.

William Kelley

I think I found that as I worked my way up the ladder I actually liked the wines less. In my view they became too large scaled, and I actually liked this entry level bottling best. Interesting to hear you say this. Which vintage was being shown? While the wines certainly do gain in texture and conc...

William Kelley

I don't know why but 2008 is not a great year for Coche Dury . Maybe it was a period of transition between father and son ? Not sure I agree with this, Herwig! I think they are just very tightly wound, due to very high acidity levels. When we tasted all the Corton-Charlemagne vintages of the decade...

William Kelley

Enviable!

A mutual friend of ours had a 1978 Montée de Tonnerre reserved for me for later this year, just need to pick a red to bring to lunch that will be worthy of the white...

William Kelley

If you go back far enough with some domaines there is no telling what you might find. DRC made cold duck and white Zin. Most people don’t know that. As I recall Fred Mugnier has a poster of some weird concoction made by his ancestors. My guesses would be Philippe Engel, long May he live in our hear...

William Kelley

Christian Moreau Moreau-Naudet Antoine Jobard Duroché Domaine Leflaive Humbert Frères Trapet Ghislaine Barthod Louis Boillot Harmand-Geoffrey The now defunct Domaine David Clark? Up until 2005 at least Antoine Jobard made a Blagny red. Label was still François & Antoine Jobard at that point but I t...

William Kelley

Max K wrote: ↑
July 3rd, 2020, 11:37 am
Fair enough...but does that mean the others stand?

Yes! Or at least, as far as I know...

We really ought to exclude Chablis and Mâconnais producers, or perhaps invert the question for those regions, asking which producers make reds as well as whites.

William Kelley

MitchTallan wrote: ↑
July 3rd, 2020, 9:10 am
I think of Certain de May with it's history of two old ladies owning the tiny winery and it's historic underperformance.

Which two old ladies were those?

William Kelley

Christian Moreau Moreau-Naudet Antoine Jobard Duroché Domaine Leflaive Humbert Frères Trapet Ghislaine Barthod Louis Boillot Harmand-Geoffrey The now defunct Domaine David Clark? Up until 2005 at least Antoine Jobard made a Blagny red. Label was still François & Antoine Jobard at that point but I t...

William Kelley

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: ↑
July 3rd, 2020, 5:58 am
Coquard Loison Fleurot
Vincent Ledy

Vincent Ledy makes Hautes-Côtes de Nuits whites.

For CLF you may be onto something.

William Kelley

I move to ban William from this thread. [rofl.gif] I think it will be genuinely difficult to find very many producers than never made a white in Burgundy, partly because it was historically quite common for producers to make a barrel of white for day to day consumption. If you go back in time, befo...

William Kelley

Matthew King wrote: ↑
July 2nd, 2020, 7:55 pm
Cathiard

Cathiard makes Aligoté and now IIRC Hautes-Côtes de Nuits Blanc

William Kelley

B. Buzzini wrote: ↑
July 2nd, 2020, 5:54 pm
Off hand I know Bertheau has only made a red

François produces a bit of Aligoté for personal consumption in his kir.

William Kelley

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: ↑
July 2nd, 2020, 6:21 pm
Mugneret gibourg

I own two bottles of their 1964 Aligoté - a parcel since replanted to Pinot Noir.

William Kelley

Here's a note I love, from our own David Bueker here on WB . It's entirely metaphoric, but sums up a classic Chablis 1er cru vividly: 2010 François Raveneau Chablis Grand Cru Blanchot - France, Burgundy, Chablis, Chablis Grand Cru (6/29/2020) Take a very sharp knife. Slide a lemon with one quick cu...

William Kelley

2016 Montrachet is the one of the rarest bottles of Chardonnay ever. I have a good friend in Hong Kong who owns a bottle. He told me just 500 total bottles sold worldwide (that’s 1/10th typical production for each of the standing Domaines, let alone all of them combined) to VIP clients with their n...

William Kelley

3x 1986 Beychevelle
1x 1934 Clos Vougeot from Château Couronné Malvoisin, a Mâconnais négociant label that doesn't exist anymore. Some of those old southern Burgundy négoce did a great job back in the day (Piat, for example), so this might be interesting.

William Kelley

Question for the experts: of the pomerol super seconds (VCC, Trotanoy, Eglise Clinet) which is the value pick of the last decade? ‘12 or ‘14? (‘09, ‘10 and ‘16 sitting clearly in a higher piece&quality bracket) 2011 VCC would win my nomination for value pick of the decade, and if you like more Cabe...

William Kelley

I think you can find fantastic value in vintage Champagne, especially in good recent vintages (08, 12, 14, now 18). In the US, we even see good quality vintage stuff in the $40-50 USD range. Don't forget 2013 here! Honestly, I like 2013 more than 2014 overall. And the incisive, racy style of 2013 h...

William Kelley

why do you prefer Bosconia over Tondonia Not Blake, but in conception Viña Bosconia was intended to be a more Burgundian-styled wine, whereas Viña Tondonia was modeled on the Bordeaux crus classé (and Viña Gravonia on the white blends of the Graves). This all came about during the phylloxera crisis...

William Kelley

Vinod S. wrote: ↑
June 30th, 2020, 2:08 pm
Anyone tried the 2012 or 2011 VCC recently? Have some sitting in offsite storage and thought they might be reaching approachability though young.

Wait a bit longer! They are still pretty primary.

William Kelley

Just checked the release. Always a pleasure to see that a year of work in the vineyard transformed into happiness in the glass [dance-clap.gif] I also see that William's palate and mine align on Denogent Les Cras 2017, great bottle in my opinion, my box of 6 is already down to 4... Thanks, Gautier....

William Kelley

Does anyone include the guy from the Wine Advocate chiming in on this thread? He seemed to like it. Yes, I really did like it! For me, one of the very best 2008 Champagnes from the big houses, and it's built for the very long haul. I tasted / drank it again in France this Spring from the commercial...

William Kelley

Does anyone include the guy from the Wine Advocate chiming in on this thread? He seemed to like it. Yes, I really did like it! For me, one of the very best 2008 Champagnes from the big houses, and it's built for the very long haul. I tasted / drank it again in France this Spring from the commercial...

William Kelley

It's gotten better, but I would agree with her on the 3rd Class status for now. Remember that there are quite a few that she didn't give a classification to, so that's not the lowest status. Depends on the period also, before the sale of vineyards to Pétrus in the 1960s it was terrific. That's inte...

William Kelley

Sure, who knows. I bet Salon's production is well south of CdC. Unless the pricing is ridiculous, count me as a buyer! Right, hard to know what the true numbers are, but CdC, while a multiple of Salon's production, is well below 1 million bottles, whereas even conservative estimates of DP would hav...

William Kelley

wow no love for Gazin on that ranking. It's gotten better, but I would agree with her on the 3rd Class status for now. Remember that there are quite a few that she didn't give a classification to, so that's not the lowest status. Depends on the period also, before the sale of vineyards to Pétrus in...

William Kelley

Agreed, now is a great time to be opening this!

William Kelley

Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote: ↑
June 29th, 2020, 3:06 pm
Have they ever priced north of Dom? That would be bold...

Why? It's smaller production and often better.

William Kelley

One decent starting place on a classification is Wikipedia's post on Pomerol, which includes Master of Wine Mary Ewing-Mulligan's 2001 rankings that divided Pomerol into three categories. One flaw was that she ignored a couple of top ones which made fewer than 1,000 cases, most notably La Violette....

William Kelley

Without intending to pick a fight, I don’t think too many wineries are as worried about negative reviews as they used to be either. I can’t speak to other wineries, but no critic has ever inclined in any way that my reviews could be affected by anything other than how the wines show when tasted. It...

William Kelley

I thought Château Bel Air-Marquis d'Aligre would be an interesting experiment to parse the CT tasting notes. By the vast majority, I saw tons of tobacco and cigar mentions in a wine with all concrete aging. There were some mentions of cigar box still--with one example given: 5/30/2016 - WILLIAM KEL...

William Kelley

I did a Google search on this, and several sources mention the sweet tobacco leaf note may be just pyrazine character and more from just Cabernet Sauvignon not achieving full ripeness. If that's the case, why do I not pick it up with CA cabernet in which the winemaker isn't picking to make super ri...

William Kelley

Care to provide some detail on the Jancis “outing” for those of us who don’t want to listen to the podcast? I skimmed it and couldn't find it, so would be curious, too. As someone who works in the field, I'm as acutely aware of the shortcomings of contemporary wine writing as anyone, but, for all t...

William Kelley

That's right. I've just found out that one major publication does pay for all flights and meals, which I did not know. Which one? The Wine Advocate . It's the same for Vinous , too. And I'm sure a few others. I believe that Brad Baker, for example, makes a point of purchasing all the wines he revie...

William Kelley

Yeah, Taittinger was pretty much shut down entirely for a couple of months this Spring.

William Kelley

While this has something to do with varietal character, I second Mel in attributing this to élevage practices. He might be able to expand on the kind of cooperage choices historically prevalent in Bordeaux.

William Kelley

I find it much easier and more useful to discuss specific producers than to discuss a vintage in its entirety. This! I have enjoyed some 2003s recently. Best bottles of the last 18 months were Leroy Richebourg and Kalin Bourgogne Côte de Beaune Les Pierres Blanches. As others have noted, the wines ...

William Kelley

Nick Christie wrote: ↑
June 26th, 2020, 9:55 am

I appreciate your interest and enthusiasm for these little intricacies of agriculture, William. They help my/our understanding of very much. Thank you for sharing and continuing the dialogue from the terroir thread .

My pleasure! More to come...

William Kelley

Claus Jeppesen wrote: ↑
June 26th, 2020, 9:45 am
Thanks William
Are the Lamy vines Hautes Densitee?

Yes!

William Kelley

Yeah, exactly that! Plus the work in rolling the canopy by hand, instead of just driving through a tractor with spinning blades a few times during the season to trim the vines. Very cool. One of the things that has stuck with me recently was something Armand Heitz of Heitz-Lochardet said on a recen...

William Kelley

One more question, sorry; what extra work is involved in maintaining these vines? You mentioned tractors being unable to enter the vineyard/do work when they're this tall, so is it just a matter of individual workers having to go in with backpacks full of spray as opposed to being able to do so fro...

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