Search found 2429 matches

by Marcus Goodfellow
February 25th, 2021, 8:45 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

"GOUT DE TERROIR : having a taste of the earth or soil ; strongly earthy ; quite pleasant in modest amounts but sometimes overwhelming " (1977) this sounds suspiciously like brett [berserker.gif] i can't recall having ever tasted too much terroir in my glass Yes. And/or reductive compounds.
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 25th, 2021, 6:33 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

But terroir is the expression of somewhereness. Now this is a really interesting point, if looked at in its historical dimensions. Of course, there is a long and fascinating history of people distinguishing between sites on the basis of the characteristic textures and flavors they have tended to im...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 25th, 2021, 1:55 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: TN: 2019 Cristom Willamette Valley Chardonnay
Replies: 2
Views: 191

Re: TN: 2019 Cristom Willamette Valley Chardonnay

“In your face as some Goodfellows”?

They’ll think I’m doing overblown stuff instead of 12-13%

[wow.gif]
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 25th, 2021, 9:28 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Example of highly allocated, yet inexpensive wines?
Replies: 101
Views: 10296

Re: Example of highly allocated, yet inexpensive wines?

That pricing seems whacko. I don't think the rosado is "allocated" in the sense that it's produced in small quantities and there's very high demand. I would guess the issue in Seattle is that there's very little demand so the distributor only brought in a few cases. The real problem is th...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 25th, 2021, 8:10 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

I feel like most of my posts on this thread are just quoting definitions from the Larousse or other etymology work rather than providing an insightful opinion like others. However, I think in this case, this discussion is greatly influenced by the etymology of the word "terroir". Terroir ...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 25th, 2021, 8:09 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

But wine is not just a human invention. We didn’t invent fermentation at all, it’s a natural process. One we can direct a bit but really don’t control. Even inhibiting it from happening takes an absurd amount of effort to actually do. I give you that. Fermentation is a natural process and as such y...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 25th, 2021, 4:27 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

A few things caught my eye. In Burgundy, they use barriques. They don't; they use barriques in Bordeaux. In Burgundy, they use pièces. If you go asking around, those three liters matter! neener (well, the shape, too). In Italy, it was amphora. What? Where? In Italy, it was botti. Until the recent e...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 25th, 2021, 4:23 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

With regions like Bordeaux and Burgundy, I feel that in those regions history and winemaking tradition are intrinsically tied to a recognizable sense of place. That familiarity is something we prize. It also comforts us as we look at larger and larger purchase prices for wine. With a 1000 year trac...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 25th, 2021, 4:11 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

With regions like Bordeaux and Burgundy, I feel that in those regions history and winemaking tradition are intrinsically tied to a recognizable sense of place. That familiarity is something we prize. It also comforts us as we look at larger and larger purchase prices for wine. With a 1000 year trac...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 24th, 2021, 10:47 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

Marcus, Agree, friendly disagreement. I’ve heard Fourrier is experimenting with amphora. Let’s say their experiment goes super-well, and they and all the top domaines make the switch. Let’s suppose the resulting wines are excellent, and demonstrate the differences between the patches of land. Quest...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 24th, 2021, 10:24 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

Marcus, Agree, friendly disagreement. I’ve heard Fourrier is experimenting with amphora. Let’s say their experiment goes super-well, and they and all the top domaines make the switch. Let’s suppose the resulting wines are excellent, and demonstrate the differences between the patches of land. Quest...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 24th, 2021, 7:37 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

... In that spirit, one of the things I find most fascinating about the concept of "terroir", is that the more I learn about the history of wine production, the idea of "terroir" cannot simply be reduced to the given climate or land (say the general weather pattern, soil type, t...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 24th, 2021, 6:10 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

I find so little to argue with here that I am torn between admiring the brilliance of the argument and the beauty of the writing, and dismissing it as syllogistic. Same. But my follow-on thought was that sometimes an argument needs to be put into writing. When done well, as here, by a voice with an...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 24th, 2021, 11:31 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

I don’t trick or deceive others. Implying that “naturalistic” process is a more subtle version of artifice, can only be argued regarding the marketing of wine. As opposed to the making of wine. Every winemaker at the beginning of vintage, is like a downhill skier atop the hill. You’re going down th...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 23rd, 2021, 11:28 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

Enjoyed the article very much, William, and the discussion so far. My immediate thoughts swing to an analogy--maybe not as far-fetched of one as it seems on first *blush* because it's a different kind of art. A movie can have great actors and have a great story. But doesn't it take a great director...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 23rd, 2021, 10:47 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

There are lots of examples of producers who make wines from multiple sources (or terroirs, if you prefer). In some cases, tasting through those wines you can perceive noticeable differences across the wines, and in some cases you first notice the winemaking stamp, then the source differences at alm...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 23rd, 2021, 10:43 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Wine's naturalistic fallacy
Replies: 129
Views: 4652

Re: Wine's naturalistic fallacy

Just published a free-to-read Tuesday morning provocation on The Wine Advocate site. Would be interested to hear everyone's thought! The précis is that I argue that the notion that wines "make themselves", and that any producer signature amounts to "makeup" is mistaken; every wi...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 23rd, 2021, 10:12 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Why is Oregon chardonnay so expensive?
Replies: 206
Views: 14576

Re: Why is Oregon chardonnay so expensive?

Friend just got on the Antica Terra list after a few years waiting. Their PN is 125 bones. So is their Chardonnay. That caught him a bit off-guard. "I can deal with $125 for a PN, but for a Chard?". US wine market is not for the faint of heart. Or thinness of wallet. Antica Terra is in th...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 23rd, 2021, 3:30 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Why is Oregon chardonnay so expensive?
Replies: 206
Views: 14576

Re: Why is Oregon chardonnay so expensive?

I predict we will be laughing at this thread topic in 5 years. I just reread this thread which had a little bit of everything. But this gem from Ron seems particularly fitting. After an autumn and winter drinking terrific Goodfellow 2018 WV chard for less than $20/bottle, I had to laugh. Thank you!...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 23rd, 2021, 3:20 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: TN: Three Natural Wines...(short/boring)
Replies: 2
Views: 227

Re: TN: Three Natural Wines...(short/boring)

Not very attractive x2 + Not very enjoyable. Seems a tough day of tasting, even if it was intellectually stimulating.
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 23rd, 2021, 8:54 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Your top five German wine producers
Replies: 107
Views: 2993

Re: Your top five German wine producers

Merkelbach Hexamer Donnhoff J. J. Adam Willi Schaefer But I buy mostly Kabinett with a bit of Spatlese and GG, and then just open it when it sounds good. Some has drifted deeper into the cellar, but I just enjoy the wines. I bought a mixed case yesterday with some producers I have been looking learn...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 22nd, 2021, 8:25 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: TN: 2018 C. Loewen Maximin Herrenberg 1896 Alte Reben
Replies: 1
Views: 206

TN: 2018 C. Loewen Maximin Herrenberg 1896 Alte Reben

ABA0FF6A-C9A8-499E-8E8F-A8E634B66BF3.jpeg This bottling has been some of the most impressive wines I have tasted from Germany. 125 year old vines shine through. The aromatics are superlative in the understated way that only really old vines can. This is slate, star fruit, seawater, old couch(the go...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 20th, 2021, 7:18 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Oregon aging rule of thumb
Replies: 46
Views: 3500

Re: Oregon aging rule of thumb

I recall that was all Temperance Hill fruit (and the label does state that). It was unusual for Temperance to be the core source for Cuvee J in that era and it is an interesting exercise to taste the '96 with other vintages from the '90s if you have them. '96 is my favorite Oregon vintage from the ...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 20th, 2021, 2:01 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy
Replies: 91
Views: 5380

Re: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

I find Aubert and Rochioli too big and ripe to be in the same conversation as Burgundy. Frankly most all the top West Coast Pinot Noirs - much better off using some of the better Pinot Noirs from the Finger Lakes district in New York. Again, it really depends upon what you mean by “top”. I’ve had a...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 19th, 2021, 4:19 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy
Replies: 91
Views: 5380

Re: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

I see one of my points being made. A lot of the most visible representations of high-end west coast Pinot are the James Laube type of wines, and priced accordingly. When the market mostly recognizes ripe and oaky, guidance is required. BD participants are a good place to start. Seems like there's s...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 19th, 2021, 2:54 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy
Replies: 91
Views: 5380

Re: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

I guess we must have better wine stores in the DC area. Esp. with respect to producers from the Côte Chalonnaise like Moirots and Juillot. https://www.weygandtwines.com/search?type=article%2Cpage%2Cproduct&q=moirots* https://www.weygandtwines.com/search?type=article%2Cpage%2Cproduct&q=juill...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 19th, 2021, 2:06 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy
Replies: 91
Views: 5380

Re: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

I hit Vinopolis for Burgundy semi-regularly and not much is less than $70. I guess we must have better wine stores in the DC area. Esp. with respect to producers from the Côte Chalonnaise like Moirots and Juillot. https://www.weygandtwines.com/search?type=article%2Cpage%2Cproduct&q=moirots* htt...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 19th, 2021, 1:46 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy
Replies: 91
Views: 5380

Re: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

I think you are missing the OPs point. He didn’t say he wanted Burgundy. He likes Burgundy, but at current pricing wants to know what else is out there. Aubert pinot noir and Rochioli single vineyard pinot aren't exactly cheap. I would rather drink village level Dujac, Hudelot Noellat, Denis Bachel...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 18th, 2021, 9:52 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: TN: 2007 Biggio Hamina Cellars Syrah Deux Vert
Replies: 11
Views: 632

Re: TN: 2007 Biggio Hamina Cellars Syrah Deux Vert

Nice nose. Did this with 8% Viognier and 100% whole cluster. Glad it walked the walk for you. Yah, that wine es muy bueno. I am down to my last bottle of both 2007 and 2008. It was fun to see that fruit come in, I learned a lot. Those were some good days. I think I have a case of 07 XX left, but as...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 18th, 2021, 9:47 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy
Replies: 91
Views: 5380

Re: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

You’re wasting your time looking for Burgundy substitutes from outside burgundy. There are excellent wines that one might use the term “Burgundian” to describe ranging from CA/OR Pinot, German Pinot, Valtellina, Barolo, Etna, etc but they aren’t burgundy. If you want burgundy then buy burgundy. I t...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 18th, 2021, 8:42 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Oregon aging rule of thumb
Replies: 46
Views: 3500

Re: Oregon aging rule of thumb

Marcus, With your love of burgundy and grower champagne, it would be just plain wrong to drink your wines early! Completely agree on your and Richards lists of makers. In that group, I have my last bottle of 1996 Evesham Wood Cuvée J standing up in my wine cellar waiting for the appropriate moment ...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 18th, 2021, 8:03 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Oregon aging rule of thumb
Replies: 46
Views: 3500

Re: Oregon aging rule of thumb

Fun thread. A couple of recent wines for data points: 1994 St. Innocent Pinot Noir Freedom Hill Vineyard - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley (2/18/2021) Great cork and fill. This was an old wine. Brownish color. Cedar and cinnamon notes dominate, with some dried tertiary fruit notes. Some tea and eart...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 18th, 2021, 7:46 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: TN: 2007 Biggio Hamina Cellars Syrah Deux Vert
Replies: 11
Views: 632

Re: TN: 2007 Biggio Hamina Cellars Syrah Deux Vert

Todd Hamina wrote: February 18th, 2021, 7:34 pm Nice nose. Did this with 8% Viognier and 100% whole cluster. Glad it walked the walk for you.
Yah, that wine es muy bueno. I am down to my last bottle of both 2007 and 2008. It was fun to see that fruit come in, I learned a lot.
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 18th, 2021, 7:15 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy
Replies: 91
Views: 5380

Re: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

You’re wasting your time looking for Burgundy substitutes from outside burgundy. There are excellent wines that one might use the term “Burgundian” to describe ranging from CA/OR Pinot, German Pinot, Valtellina, Barolo, Etna, etc but they aren’t burgundy. If you want burgundy then buy burgundy. I t...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 18th, 2021, 4:58 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Sokolblosser 50th anniversary sale $40 pinot for $6.75
Replies: 49
Views: 2830

Re: Sokolblosser 50th anniversary sale $40 pinot for $6.75

Well I got a case, let’s see how it is I'm encouraged, in that it's still an Estate pinot of theirs, and their non-svd estate pinots over many years get good marks on CT. I'm not expecting a $60 super complex wine or something, but I'd expect a good quality wine. It wouldn't make much sense for the...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 18th, 2021, 11:39 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy
Replies: 91
Views: 5380

Re: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

I confess to having given up on red Burgundy because I simply can't afford to spend $175 per bottle only to be borderline angered by 28% of them. Plenty of quality Burgundy for $40-60/bottle. Just gotta look around, don't be a label chaser. Not sure this is true in Oregon. I hit Vinopolis for Burgu...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 18th, 2021, 11:06 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy
Replies: 91
Views: 5380

Re: Pinot: Rhys v. Rochioli v. Aubert v. CA Others v. Burgundy

A few threads https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=167055&p=2901301&hilit=oregon+red+fruited+burgundian https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=168854&p=3054224&hilit=oregon+burgundian In Oregon, I am a fan of the 2018 Goodfellow Whistlin...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 17th, 2021, 5:35 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Young vine wines that are epic
Replies: 73
Views: 4212

Re: Young vine wines that are epic

I know of no one in Europe touting 200 year old vines Do Ferreiro Cepas Vellas Lol...that’s perfect. So yes, there are 200 year old vines...I just don’t actually enjoy the wine from them. That’s funny and perfect for wine. There are no absolutes. And I am not saying the Cepas Vellas isn’t good, jus...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 17th, 2021, 5:32 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: TN: 2012 Goodfellow Family Cellars Pinot Noir Whistling Ridge Vineyard
Replies: 3
Views: 369

Re: TN: 2012 Goodfellow Family Cellars Pinot Noir Whistling Ridge Vineyard

When we trialed this for a library offer, it was a brick on the first night, but on day 2 it really altered and was a superlative showing. The 2011 Souris is mostly Whistling Ridge, and a few bottles last fall showed a light bodied and pretty profile on opening, but open 4-5 hours it just exploded. ...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 17th, 2021, 1:09 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Young vine wines that are epic
Replies: 73
Views: 4212

Re: Young vine wines that are epic

BTW, isn't SQN made from pretty young grapes from the estate vines? I could be wrong, but didn't they buy land and plant a bunch of vines about 10 years ago? Before that they were only negociants? Scarecrow? SQN? Maybe you’re changing your mind, but I’m still more interested in your Mission wines, ...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 16th, 2021, 6:44 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Young vine wines that are epic
Replies: 73
Views: 4212

Re: Young vine wines that are epic

Chiming in before I wade through Marcus' super long answers... neener [stirthepothal.gif] Young(er) vines can indeed do great things. Eyrie's legendary '75 South Block Reserve was from vines I believe planted in '68, so 8th leaf at most? Marcus make a great point about root systems of young vines b...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 16th, 2021, 3:43 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Young vine wines that are epic
Replies: 73
Views: 4212

Re: Young vine wines that are epic

Myth camp, here. You can make great wines from brand new vines, there are too many examples to mention. Basically all of France to start with - most of their vines are much younger than CA or South American vines. [scratch.gif] What's the basis for saying that? Given the replanting due to phylloxer...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 16th, 2021, 3:00 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: The 16 bottle Chardonnay Blowout Challenge!
Replies: 342
Views: 31984

Re: The 16 bottle Chardonnay Blowout Challenge!

Great bump! This thread is so funny. Made my day just to see it at the top again.
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 15th, 2021, 9:53 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Young vine wines that are epic
Replies: 73
Views: 4212

Re: Young vine wines that are epic

Knowledge never hurts, but in a dry farmed vineyard with low precipitation through the growing season(Willamette Valley) deep root systems take the water roots below where rainfall will be in the topsoil. For us at least that leads to considerably less water uptake. There are definitely other facto...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 15th, 2021, 6:13 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Which Champagne are you drinking?
Replies: 1885
Views: 127841

Re: Which Champagne are you drinking?

624F2D73-4819-48E4-93BC-578A4CEA36EA.jpeg Very interesting wine, and quite enjoyable. Brut Nature from the 2000 vintage mixed with wines from 99, 98, 97, and 96, disgorged in 2016. All from Les Crayons, 50% Chardonnay and 50% Pinot Noir. Excellent wine, a touch stern from the non-dosage but I like ...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 15th, 2021, 6:00 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Young vine wines that are epic
Replies: 73
Views: 4212

Re: Young vine wines that are epic

Knowledge never hurts, but in a dry farmed vineyard with low precipitation through the growing season(Willamette Valley) deep root systems take the water roots below where rainfall will be in the topsoil. For us at least that leads to considerably less water uptake. There are definitely other factor...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 15th, 2021, 3:38 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Oregon aging rule of thumb
Replies: 46
Views: 3500

Re: Oregon aging rule of thumb

It's funny, but after Rick's comment I had to check CT to see where I stood - I have (with the caveat that my CT inventory is not 100% accurate and almost definitely understates the Chardonnay) twice as much Oregon Pinot as Chardonnay. That's because my consumption of Oregon wines is 60% Chardonnay...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 15th, 2021, 3:13 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Young vine wines that are epic
Replies: 73
Views: 4212

Re: Young vine wines that are epic

Marcus, I'll take your word for them being different young vs old. I have not the experience you have with that. Just how many Cab plantings in Napa are truly passable as old (isn't Scarecrow some of the oldest planted in 1945)? Yet they get the highly rewarded each year from the serious wine press...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 15th, 2021, 2:48 pm
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Young vine wines that are epic
Replies: 73
Views: 4212

Re: Young vine wines that are epic

Just how many Cab plantings in Napa are truly passable as old (isn't Scarecrow some of the oldest planted in 1945)? Yet they get the highly rewarded each year from the serious wine press. Here are a couple works highly regarded by serious art critics https://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/L/L03/L0...
by Marcus Goodfellow
February 15th, 2021, 11:26 am
Forum: Wine Talk
Topic: Young vine wines that are epic
Replies: 73
Views: 4212

Re: Young vine wines that are epic

JDavisRoby wrote: February 15th, 2021, 10:58 am So, when is the Goodfellow zoom session?
Mid-April? Does that work?

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