White Burgundy. My new rule, everything consumed within 10 years.

[m_ristev]

salon has had some problems with oxidization as far as champagne is concerned.

i drink quite a bit of white burgundy but i have really narrowed down the producers i drink. so far i have only run into one truly oxidized white burgundy this year, a 2007 clos de la mouchere from boillot (but this is not a producer i regularly seek out). i have had some bad experiences with very young meursault of comtes lafon so try to avoid these for sure. i agree that if a wine will oxidize it does not make a difference weather you open it up at 5 years or 10 years.

i wonder though if a lot of oxidization which occurs in the united states is on account of heat damage or wine passing through too many hands. i’m not saying the problem does not exist, but in my experience it does not seem to be as rampant as how it is talked about on these forums.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Well…one thing we know is that the number of premoxed bottles within a given case is random; not all are ever oxidized.

Whatever the underlying vulnerabilities, something makes some go bad and others not. The closure is an obvious variable, specifically the integrity of the seal.

Heat wouldn’t account for randomness within a case; nor would chemicals on the cork, IMO.

This randomness was known very early in the mystery.

[ybarselah]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

nor would chemicals on the cork, IMO.

that is, in fact, the likely culprit. natural cork will vary in its porosity from cork to cork (see Bouchard weight tests), and therefore in its ability to retain peroxide. the more peroxide, the more oxidation. (coupled likely with certain elevage practices).

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

I was referring to coatings “on” the corks.

Hadn’t heard your theory…or that “in fact” it was “the likely culprit”.

But…like everyone here we’re all ears to more theories. Do you have any links that might be convincing?

[John_Danza]

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole of “what’s the cause of premox”, I still am not convinced it’s a cork issue. If it was, then we would see similar high levels of premox in other white wines (and red, for that matter) that use cork closures. Even champagne would get it because they use cork, albeit a constructed cork under high pressure.

Now, if there’s a theory that it has to do with a unique way that the corks are handled or otherwise produced that is unique to WB, then that would be different.

[Berry_Crawford]

@John Danza

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole of “what’s the cause of premox”, I still am not convinced it’s a cork issue. If it was, then we would see similar high levels of premox in other white wines (and red, for that matter) that use cork closures. Even champagne would get it because they use cork, albeit a constructed cork under high pressure.

Now, if there’s a theory that it has to do with a unique way that the corks are handled or otherwise produced that is unique to WB, then that would be different.

Closure has to be a variable almost by definition. There is literally nothing else different between individual bottles in a case. The underlying ripeness probably creates the possibility of premox but a bad cork is needed to get the oxygen into the bottle.

[paul_hanna]

@John Danza

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole of “what’s the cause of premox”, I still am not convinced it’s a cork issue. If it was, then we would see similar high levels of premox in other white wines (and red, for that matter) that use cork closures. Even champagne would get it because they use cork, albeit a constructed cork under high pressure.

Now, if there’s a theory that it has to do with a unique way that the corks are handled or otherwise produced that is unique to WB, then that would be different.

Every time I open a constantly perfect bottle of Chard. under screwcap (many of them are now approaching the 10 year old mark, and still not one premoxed bottle, ever) I am more and more convinced this is simply not true.

I would continue buying White burgs under screwcap, but until that happens, I am officially out…

[Jon_Lawrence]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

Well…one thing we know is that the number of premoxed bottles within a given case is random; not all are ever oxidized.

I bought two 6-packs of '06 Jadot Monty and I drank through the first 6-pack within 2 years. People kept asking me, “why are drinking this wine so young?” and I would reply by handing them a glass. And then they got it, it was drinking great. I stopped for a year and then started on the second 6-pack. Half the bottles were advanced, half were completely oxidized.

Every bottle of Selosse I have had has been oxidized, but that is the style.

[Jon_Lawrence]

“2) I own 4-5 cases now that are beyond that window. Mostly things I’ve saved for some great day. Leroy, Leflaive, Niellon, Coche, Dauvissat, Lafon, etc. Got to either sell it or drink it.”

Peter - you are pretty safe with Coche, right? Lafon is one of the poster children for premox, I would sell those to someone willing to take the risk.

[Marshall_Gelb]

I too have dumped many a '96 down the drain. I totally gave up on white burgs for many years and then gradually moved back into the area of Chablis. I am now buying limited amounts of 1er cry Puligny & Chassagne but have really lowered my price point and drinking windows. I cannot see spending the money on GC’s that have to be drunk early because they probably will never reach a special level of maturity.

Cheers!
Marshall

[ybarselah]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

I was referring to coatings “on” the corks.

Hadn’t heard your theory…or that “in fact” it was “the likely culprit”.

But…like everyone here we’re all ears to more theories. Do you have any links that might be convincing?

not all “corks” get a “coating” but most get a wash. " "

there are many “links” on this web…site… you can “use” the… search


…

“function”

and it’s not “my” theory - it has been discussed here “many…many” times and I’m surprised you haven’t noticed since you’re…

usually “active” on burgundy threads…"

[ybarselah]

@John Danza

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole of “what’s the cause of premox”, I still am not convinced it’s a cork issue. If it was, then we would see similar high levels of premox in other white wines (and red, for that matter) that use cork closures. Even champagne would get it because they use cork, albeit a constructed cork under high pressure.

Now, if there’s a theory that it has to do with a unique way that the corks are handled or otherwise produced that is unique to WB, then that would be different.

there is ample evidence of premoxed whites from other regions, as well as premoxed reds. in the case of reds, it manifests itself very differently however and can be more confusing - stripped and lean typically. so not as obviously what you’d consider oxidized like in the white category.

[CFu]

@paul hanna

@John Danza

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole of “what’s the cause of premox”, I still am not convinced it’s a cork issue. If it was, then we would see similar high levels of premox in other white wines (and red, for that matter) that use cork closures. Even champagne would get it because they use cork, albeit a constructed cork under high pressure.

Now, if there’s a theory that it has to do with a unique way that the corks are handled or otherwise produced that is unique to WB, then that would be different.

Every time I open a constantly perfect bottle of Chard. under screwcap (many of them are now approaching the 10 year old mark, and still not one premoxed bottle, ever) I am more and more convinced this is simply not true.

I would continue buying White burgs under screwcap, but until that happens, I am officially out…

What do you think the import cost is to send all your roulot perrieres to me?

[John_Danza]

@ybarselah

@John Danza

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole of “what’s the cause of premox”, I still am not convinced it’s a cork issue. If it was, then we would see similar high levels of premox in other white wines (and red, for that matter) that use cork closures. Even champagne would get it because they use cork, albeit a constructed cork under high pressure.

Now, if there’s a theory that it has to do with a unique way that the corks are handled or otherwise produced that is unique to WB, then that would be different.

there is ample evidence of premoxed whites from other regions, as well as premoxed reds. in the case of reds, it manifests itself very differently however and can be more confusing - stripped and lean typically. so not as obviously what you’d consider oxidized like in the white category.

The “stripped and lean” characteristic of reds is usually attributed to a very mild case of the wine being corked, but not enough to get the typical wet newspaper, moldiness characteristic that screams “corked!”. I’ve not ever heard it associated with premox.

As far as “ample evidence of premixed whites from other regions”, it seems to be a well-kept secret because I see little discussion about rampant premox’ed white rhones, Cali Chards, etc.

[John_Danza]

@Berry Crawford

@John Danza

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole of “what’s the cause of premox”, I still am not convinced it’s a cork issue. If it was, then we would see similar high levels of premox in other white wines (and red, for that matter) that use cork closures. Even champagne would get it because they use cork, albeit a constructed cork under high pressure.

Now, if there’s a theory that it has to do with a unique way that the corks are handled or otherwise produced that is unique to WB, then that would be different.

Closure has to be a variable almost by definition. There is literally nothing else different between individual bottles in a case. The underlying ripeness probably creates the possibility of premox but a bad cork is needed to get the oxygen into the bottle.

I hear what you’re saying. However, my experience has been worse than others apparently about individual bottles in a case. When I’ve opened WBs of the late-1990s, it’s usually 8-9 bottles out of the case that are premox’ed and the rest are ok but not great. I’ve not really experienced one or two bad bottles and the rest good in a case.

[Rauno_E_NZ]

Good luck with the Niellons and Lafons you’ve been saving !
I fully respect your right to choose and how you’re applying it. However, I wonder whether “technically 6-10” years will mean you still get most of the premox downside but without the upside of fully mature great WB (other than those 4-5 cases). My approach has been more in line with Stuart’s, but then I have had more “luck” than some.

[paul_hanna]

@c fu

@paul hanna

@John Danza

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole of “what’s the cause of premox”, I still am not convinced it’s a cork issue. If it was, then we would see similar high levels of premox in other white wines (and red, for that matter) that use cork closures. Even champagne would get it because they use cork, albeit a constructed cork under high pressure.

Now, if there’s a theory that it has to do with a unique way that the corks are handled or otherwise produced that is unique to WB, then that would be different.

Every time I open a constantly perfect bottle of Chard. under screwcap (many of them are now approaching the 10 year old mark, and still not one premoxed bottle, ever) I am more and more convinced this is simply not true.

I would continue buying White burgs under screwcap, but until that happens, I am officially out…

What do you think the import cost is to send all your roulot perrieres to me?

Hah…have had some premox issues with 99-01 Roulot’s but after that they have all been good, touch wood.

Next time I come to LA I can bring a bottle or two of Roulot, instead of some Coche if you want…

One wine I have not (curiously) had ANY premox issues (a few corked bottles, but no premox I can remember) is Raveneau - '96 and up have constantly been fine…

[Peter_Hirsch]

After reading the various posts on this thread, I think my method is flawed.

I agree that PremOx is either there or not there upon bottling, so what’s the point in drinking a 6-10yr old Leflaive ‘Chevalier Montrachet’? If it’s PremOx, it’s not gonna be worth what I paid, and if it’s clean, I should wait another decade.

So, I’m going to get my ‘older’ WB’s down to a smaller number (down to 1-2 cases for 10+ year old CG WB’s)

I’m going to buy a small number of GC’s from producers I like and age them properly

And I’m going to buy village and 1er wines for early consumption.

So, in ‘bond’ talk, the ‘barbell’ strategy. Nothing in the middle. Either cheaper wines for quick consumption or great wines (in small numbers) and wait for the proper time…

[ybarselah]

@John Danza

@ybarselah

@John Danza

At the risk of going down the rabbit hole of “what’s the cause of premox”, I still am not convinced it’s a cork issue. If it was, then we would see similar high levels of premox in other white wines (and red, for that matter) that use cork closures. Even champagne would get it because they use cork, albeit a constructed cork under high pressure.

Now, if there’s a theory that it has to do with a unique way that the corks are handled or otherwise produced that is unique to WB, then that would be different.

there is ample evidence of premoxed whites from other regions, as well as premoxed reds. in the case of reds, it manifests itself very differently however and can be more confusing - stripped and lean typically. so not as obviously what you’d consider oxidized like in the white category.

The “stripped and lean” characteristic of reds is usually attributed to a very mild case of the wine being corked, but not enough to get the typical wet newspaper, moldiness characteristic that screams “corked!”. I’ve not ever heard it associated with premox.

As far as “ample evidence of premixed whites from other regions”, it seems to be a well-kept secret because I see little discussion about rampant premox’ed white rhones, Cali Chards, etc.

look, i can’t account or explain what you are and aren’t aware of.

you asked about reds, it’s a reasonable question and i’ve heard from winemakers that it exists in burgundy and because of the difference in red wines it doesn’t act the same as whites. you said that’s corked wine - okay.

as for whites, plenty of reports here on alsace and loire. but again, your lack of awareness is the issue.

[lleichtman]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

I do think the frequency of premox that I’ve experienced thus far is not as great as it might seem from reading this and other threads.

Before I stopped buying WB, with the 2006 vintage (though I bought Dauvssat for a few after that), I focused on 5-6 producers…and, except for one of them, haven’t been hit too hard.

Don Cornwell’s WIKI, though well intentioned…I think can make one think the prevalence is greater than it is, as I learned a couple of years ago, that many people posting there only posted their bad experiences. I posted both and had assumed everyone had, but…there was a thread on WB that made me realize the results were weighted toward mainly bad experiences. People just didn’t bother to post their ok ones, unfortunately.

I wonder if the WB “industry”…producers and importers, mainly…have really felt any of the pain we have though? I certainly think many of them should…for not being able to figure out the problem or a cure in these last 20 vintages since the problem’s been around. That , to me, is the real disappointment.

I have had as many as 1/3 over 10 years premoxed so I keep none over 5-7 years now and this pains me greatly but don’t know any other solution.