What is the point of age?

WINE TALK
21

There’s no simple answer here. So, I’d say: If the tasters are experienced wine drinkers (and this matters, for the perception of the varied flavors of varied ages of wine takes some palate education), then they will very likely be able to perceive the differences between the best aged wines and the best young wines. As to which would be ‘better’ - that is entirely a matter of entirely subjective taste and personal preference.

If you gathered folks from this board for this blind tasting, the aged wines would probably ‘win’ because people here tend to appreciate aged wines. A random sample of people found in a wine store would likely yield a different result.

Since you’re a wine maker, my (non-wine maker) POV is I hope a wine maker is thinking about intentionality. What kind of wine do you intend to make? What style, ageability, market, etc. are your targets? What are your budget, philosophy and materials at hand? What flavors and wines do you love? To me, a good wine maker is one who can hit the mark she/he shoots at. Given the budget and time, I’m sure you can find the vineyard location, grape variety, wine making materials, and information from your peers to try to make what you want.

22

If one likes bold fruit flavors in a wine, drink it young. You can probably open it early and air it out to soften some of the tannins and make the wine taste softer and the fruit flavors will probably never be bolder or more vibrant than they are when the wine tastes young.

Most people who age wine do not do so because they retain something or because it is neat to drink an old wine or for any of the reasons you posit. Most people who like older wines like them because the wines develop new flavors (often called secondary or tertiary flavors) that cannot be present in a young wine, as a couple of other posters have said.

There is a huge difference between a wine that has aged over time (developed secondary or tertiary flavors while retaining some fruit) and wines that have held over time (still showing fruit, not over the hill, but not having developed secondary or tertiary flavors). Many more wines hold over time than age over time. The ones that age over time IMHO are wines that are great wines. The ones that held over time should have been drunk younger IMHO.

A lot of people don’t like aged wine because they have only had wines that have held, not wines that have aged. Others like young wines because they would rather have wines with bold fruit flavors than wines with a combination of fruit flavors that are less bold with secondary and tertiary flavors.

I really am not sure what a blind tasting would demonstrate. If the wine has truly aged (and not just held), you can see the old wine from the young wine in the color without the label before even trying it.

So, I disagree with a number of the earlier posts - it isn’t about tannins resolving (although that is good, of course), a wine becoming “drinkable” (whatever that means), etc. Aging is about wines developing secondary and tertiary aromas and flavors.

Either you want that or you don’t. I love aged wines, but sometimes I just really enjoy the fruit of a young wine. A great example are German Spatlesen. When I taste them young, I love the fruit and think “boy why would I age this.” When I taste it old, I think wow, this wine has so much to it. Why would I ever drink this young.

The best wines I have had have been older wines. A week ago I had a 1970 and 1982 Lynch Bages side by side. They were fabulous, esp. the 1970.

23
  1. Yes…there’s a lot more than this…first, where are these questions coming from? Maybe more clearly…what are you trying to understand? (Why people age wine? or Why bother age wine? or something else)
  2. It’s a matter of taste and perception. I like both aged and young wines…it depends on the mood, and the wine, and the food, and the company, and many other factors. An aged bottle of yellow tail shiraz is not as likely to be as good as a young one to most people…but aged GC Burgundy is completely different from young GC Burgundy.
  3. What…? this is so speculative and impossible to answer it’s frustrating. I think the answer is that it completely depends on the marketing, wine maker, and other essential variables that are not provided in the question.
  4. Not to me…I don’t think wine is about status to the majority of the people here (I could be wrong). It’s more about sharing
24

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This is perhaps the easiest angle to say why many of us like aged wines, but as others have said, not all aged wines deliver on this.

There are elements that come out in older wines, that I’ve yet to experience in more youthful wines. It is not enough for a wine to run the course, but it must have something unique to tell.

There are few wines that are wondrously complex on release, and get no more complex with ageing. A recent thread gave one decent example when this was raised - Condrieu. That apart there are plenty of good wines that are as good as they get on release, and age just slowly dilutes their vibrancy. Some ageing wines are approachable in youth, never close up and simply develop greater complexity. However a large number are either tight with acidity and tannins on release, or go into their shell as the initial vibrancy drops away. The good ones emerge in time with delicacy and complexity, the bad ones don’t.

25

They would certainly taste different. Whether that difference is “better”, “worse” or “different but equally good” (e.g., is an apple better than an orange?) is a matter of personal preference.

As many here know I subscribe to the philosophy of drink them old or drink them young but don’t drink them in between for most of the wines I buy (I don’t buy much Barolo). I would never want to give up drinking either category. I’ve been enjoying 2015 Germans tremendously over the last year. I hope to enjoy some of them in an entirely different way in 15-20 years if I’m still around.

and what Howard said is a very important point:
There is a huge difference between a wine that has aged over time … and wines that have held over time… "

26

Thanks Howard, I too found this distinction very helpful. There are many California producers with <10 year track record whose wines I love - but I am unsure if they will improve & transform past 10 or 15 years.

27

It is an extremely waste to drink some wines young
It is an extremely pleasure to drink other wines young

28

I think I’d duplicate Kirk’s answers almost to the letter, but love the subject. I looked at this myself in a slightly different slant a couple years ago—will replay the link here, hopefully some additional thoughts are in there Kim.

Haere Ra,

Mike

29

You can’t discount the ceremonial and historical nostalgia of opening a wine 30, 40, 50+ years of age. Even when the wines are middling, you get caught up in the anticipation of opening it. You drink it while wondering (or reminiscing) what happened during that year in the world and in the vineyard to make the wine. Enjoyment of wine is perception, and these qualities, for all but the most jaded, enhance the perception and enjoyment of the wine.

30

I’m not saying young wines can’t be great, but I think in most cases they can’t be as complex as a great aged wine.

As for the rose question, if you mean really highly complex, my answer is basically no. Pretty much the only pink wines I’ve had that I think are really highly complex are either sparkling (and those ones can age) or D’Esclans Garrus, which I strongly suspect also has aging potential. I love still rose and drink a lot of it in the summer, but almost none of them can really rival a great dry Riesling, for instance (to give just one example), in terms of complexity. I still hold that there is no wine that is truly outstanding that does not have the potential to age well.

31

This is another important point. The quality debate aside, there’s no question that aged wines have characteristics that young wines do not. For those of us who like those characteristics (and MANY wine drinkers do not), there’s no other way to experience them.

32

Me too, thanks .

33

Nice! This is the first exception I’ve found to my theory that all great wines will improve with age. I’ll have to say almost all from now on. Condrieu can certainly be great.

34

For me, the best way to tell whether a wine has aged is whether the wines the wineries have made in the past have aged. In other words, track record. Wineries like Ridge, Chateau Montelena, Mayacamas, Heitz, Togni, etc., have a long track record of making wines that age well. In fact, with Ridge, I have always aged the Montebello but drunk the Estate/Santa Cruz young. A few years ago, I had a Jimsomere 1984 from them that was quite good so I decided to see if the Estate would age also. Experiment still in progress. Also, for something different try a Geyserville with age. They can be quite good.

I don’t know for sure (someone correct me if I am wrong) but I don’t know of major changes at any of these wineries that would make me think that the wines will not age well anymore, although there are new winemakers at some of these. I don’t know as much about whether wines from certain other wineries that made wines from the 70s that aged well still do (wineries like Chappellet and Diamond Creek, for example) so maybe someone else can say whether these wines still age well. I hope that this helps you get started.

You might find interesting that when they redid the Judgment of Paris tasting a few years ago for the 30th anniversary (now with the original wines much older) the winner was the Ridge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)

35

I just drank a (semi-sweet) cherry wine which was made in the San Juan Islands (Washington) more than 20 years ago.
It wasn’t intended to be aged but I recently acquired it from someone who never got around to drinking it.
The wine was quite nice, went well with dessert, and was probably as good as it was when young - but much different.
I was reminded of tea and cherry pie (without the sweetness).

There was quite a bit of sediment at the bottom of the bottle.
A little got into the last glass, which I really didn’t enjoy.

36

+1

In 1996 I was served a bottle of 1957 Bonnes Mares. No young wine that I have ever tasted in almost 3 decades of wine consumption has ever come close to that wine. While fruit can be beautiful, the tertiary flavors that great vineyard site can evolve are, IMO, on a different level altogether.

37

A good way to test this is do some horizontal-ish blind tastings. Pick an age range for a wine type where some of the wines will likely have developed some tertiary character, while others likely haven’t. You should then find wines that are already falling apart, others that are just holding well, and others that have developed intriguing characteristics. Even with a general preference, you may encounter an exception. It’s also interesting to note the preferences of others, and talk about what they like and don’t like about the wines. My group does this on the reveal, one bottle at a time, going from last to first. We don’t discuss the wines until voting in order to keep our perceptions true. It’s very common for 5 or 6 wines out of 8 to get both first and last place votes, while some wines garner very strong agreement.

38

I’ve always found it interesting in tastings where some wines are very “controversial” (ie lots of 1st place and last place votes) and some are more consistent (everyone’s 2nd or 3rd favorite).

39

Sorry, have not read all of the posts, but will answer based on the questions:

The point of age for people is to be alive rather than dead.


Oh, this is about wine.


One reads many glowing reviews of (French) wines that taste great and are 50 years old or more. Also there is much written about the “ageablity” of current releases (including the current trend: low ABV, low pH, high TA). I am trying to understand this - with the caveat that I am a wine maker but not experienced at tasting expensive aged cuvees as many here are.

I have great doubts about wines that are 50 or more. Dessert wine excepted, IMO these are a roll of the dice. After 30 years (maybe 40 for red Bordeaux), bottle variation is enormous, and the odds of a good bottle diminish rapidly. Sure, low alcohol, low pH and high titratable may confer added longevity, but I doubt if they confer added pleasure, regardless of age.

  1. Old wines that still taste good are fun because they transmit vinyard and winemaking essences over time. Is there more than this?

yes.

  1. I like the idea of age retaining beauty, but are very old wines necessarily better than not so old? (Besides high tannin Bordeaux types, which will etch your palate in their early years)

IMO the percentage of wines that are better at 50 than 30 is miniscule, with the possible exception of red Bordeaux.

  1. What if someone could make a wine that is better (to most palates) in 3 years than famous ones at 40 years (tasted blind)? Would it still be cheaper in the face of the gravitas of ageing?

3 vs 40 is a straw man. I would give a whole lot to taste the same wine of the same vintage at the same time, at 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 years of age, but the universe doesn’t work that way.

However it is possible (with enough money) to taste, for just two examples:

1952, 1961, 1970, 1978, 1985, 1990, 2000 and 2010 Chateau Latour,
or
1964, 1970, 1978, 1985, 1990, 1997, 2001 and 2010 Ridge Monte Bello.




4. Do aged wines in one’s cellar confer status? If so, does this factor into price, above and beyond taste and aromatics?

Duhhh.
Wine is unfortunately an excellent way for billionaires to proclaim status for what amounts to pennies for them.

cost of:
A very great oil painting: ~$100M
Serious competition in the America’s Cup: ~$50M
Serious competition in the Kentucky Derby: ~$25M
Serious wine cellar: ~$1M

I regularly drink wines at 15 - 30 years of age. I rarely spend over double digits. I have a great basement chock full of unprestigious goodies. The basement has no temperature control, other than living in Maine, which is better than adequate.

Dan Kravitz

40

You don’t taste old wines - you SMELL them.

If the wine still has any flavors to add to the aromatics, then that’s just icing on the cake.

But an old wine can be effectively bland and still score 100 pts.