We had the 01 cos a few years back at a blind tasting with a deep line up…it emerged as the best wine
Craig G,I am not out of my mind. Glad you enjoyed the wine.
‘There are no great wines, just great bottles’.
Rajiv, in the book Wine: Flavour Chemistry by Jokie Bakker, Ronald J. Clarke, they cite Ribereau-Gayon et al (2006), Handbook of Enology which concludes that “Pyrazines are not welcomed or appreciated in red Bordeaux wines and that in higher concentrations the herbaceous character spoils the wine aroma”.
Many do not see the presence of pyrazines as classic in Bordeaux. Too, there will always be the question of how much is present. Some dislike Sociando-Mallet for that reason, others love the Chateaux. It’s an individual and subjective perception.
As to Brettanomyces, well that is a hot topic. Brett can occur naturally in the vineyard and winery, particularly in Old World wines. From Linda Murphy in Decanter:
“Bordeaux consultant Denis Dubourdieu says Brett is a fault, but also part of the fabric of Bordeaux. ‘Without a doubt, Brett is seen as a flaw by Bordeaux winemakers,’ he says. ‘It is a matter of great concern to us, as we pick riper berries than ever.
We have to age wines with lower acidity more carefully to keep the genuine fruit complexity. All the classified growths work with selected yeasts in the alcoholic and malolactic fermentations and sulphur their wines better – especially before summer. Or they have a steam machine to clean the barrels.
But to definitively have a Bordeaux without Brett, we’d have to radically change how Bordeaux is made.’ Compounding this challenge is that some people are negatively sensitive to Brett, while others find it inviting”.
Glad your Nairac was enjoyable. I had a 375 ml bottle last month with a volatile shellac and burnt rubber smell the first night, and band aid over the orange/apricot preserves on day 2. More interesting than truly pleasurable.
Thanks for that reference! Maybe the way we can reconcile this is by drawing a distinction between the organoleptic perception of green bell peppers, and the actual presence of 2-isobutyl-3-methoxypyrazine (IBMP).
It sounds like on the organoleptic front, the perception of greenness isn’t appreciated in Bdx wines, so maybe it’s not correct for me to say IBMP is “classic” for Bordeaux. This might be true for people with a typical detection threshold (15 ng/L according to Dubourdieu et al., or 2 ng/L in white wines (same paper)).
Regarding the actual presence, many Bdx wines have IBMP to some extent, so if you have a particularly low threshold of perception, you may pick it up in varying quantities. I think I’m a little more sensitive than average, and in a recent Bdx tasting, I noted IBMP in 4 of 21 Left Bank wines: '10 Lynch-Moussas, '12 Ducru-Beaucaillou, '10 Prieure-Lichine, '10 Rauzan-Segla.
None of the major US critics noted greenness on these wines. Jancis Robinson noted “green leaves” on the Ducru, and “herbaceous… green” on the Lynch-Moussas (but gave both of these pretty good scores). Julia Harding MW noted “leafy” on the Prieure-Lichine (not sure if she means IBMP).
Taking all of this into account, I’d say that for me, IBMP is often there in top cab-based Bdx examples. I have a friend/mentor who has such a sensitivity to IBMP that he picks it up on virtually all Cab-based wines, and even some Merlot-based wines (like most Bdx varietals, Merlot presents IBMP, though a lower amount than Cabernet, almost always below the typical threshold). On an aesthetic front, I don’t necessarily mind greenness - I think it’s a nice non-fruit element that can add interest and complexity.
So to summarize:
- The perception of green bell peppers in Bdx is not generally considered classic (Ribereau-Gayon and the American critics confirm this).
- In actuality, the prevalence of IBMP in Bdx is more common than most people perceive, but usually it is below the typical detection threshold (15 ng/L)
- If you have a greater-than-average sensitivity to IBMP, you will find greenness in many Bdx wines that are generally held to be “Classic.”
- This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, unless you don’t like IBMP.
Sounds like a great offline, sorry I missed it.
It was the first time that I’ve had it, and I was glad it showed so well too. I had the remainders 1-2 days later and it was just as good if not a touch better.
What you find in a wine, is what you personally find in a wine. But it’s hard to find unripe fruit, the cause of pyrazines and overripe fruit in the same wine, especially in wines that are made in decent, (2001 is much better in the Right Bank) vintages, when selection was employed. Of course, that’s just my opinion, and you need not share it.
If I can disagree again, today, that is not the case with top examples of Bordeaux, especially from ripe vintages. You find greeness, pyrazines in wines produced from unripe Cabernet Sauvignon, especially in estates that do not have the time, money or willingness to do a serious selection of the grapes. That trait is far more common in pre 1989 vintages.
you mean for cellaring, right? I wasn’t there but from the notes it sounds like all of these wines might have benefitted from 5+ years more age. It’s my favorite vintage in Europe and a big part of my cellar (but not big enough), but I’m also not drinking anything other than to remind myself not to drink it.
I’m sure it can be a matter of recognition thresholds, but I think it’s crazy that anyone would argue pyrazines are not part of a classic Bordeaux red wine profile. They’re very often present in recognizable concentration, and historically (1980s and earlier) they pretty much always were. I guess Jeff and I agree there, but not on most of his other points. There’s really no question that a great many current releases, even high end wines from ripe vintages, contain quantities noticeable to many people. Also, there is no surprise here to find overripe notes and pyrazine notes in the same wine. Different grape varieties, parcels of vineyard, vines, and even clusters, will ripen differently. These are large estates we’re talking about. Unless there’s lots of leaf thinning to allow for plenty of sun exposure directly on the clusters, very selective (and expensive) harvest decisions, and very rigorous grape selection upon intake, there are bound to be some noticeable pyrazines in Bordeaux grapes. Yes, a few top estates are taking a Napa-like approach and doing that, but many (the majority of) others are not going so far in their efforts to remove this characteristic. Yes, it has been severely reduced in many cases, but not generally so far as to be completely indetectable. It’s also important to note that pyrazines occur in both Cabernets and Merlot, not just Cabernet Sauvignon as mentioned.
True, it seems counterintuitive to have overripe fruit and pyrazines at the same time. Some possible explanations:
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(most likely) - My observation of “overripe fruit” is more of a subjective perception, and I might be conflating various non-fruit aromas of Brett with overripeness. On the other hand, I generally consider my (and others’) perceptions of pyrazine to be objectively true (though one might confuse low levels of pyrazine with stem inclusion).
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If grapes aren’t ripening at a normal pace (i.e. phenolic ripening), then it’s possible the hang time was increased, causing some mild raisination while still not eliminating pyrazines. This seems an unlikely reason given it’s Cos we’re talking about. This isn’t their first rodeo.
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Again, not applicable to Cos, but in extremely hot/dry/sunny climates, it’s possible to have grapes sugar-ripen well before they flavor ripen, resulting in wines that are ripe and have high alcohol, but still pyrazines (again, not applicable to Cos - I’ve seen this in CA Cabs).
I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying here. Are you saying that the typical taster will not find greenness in top examples? I think this is what Leonard Maran was getting at with the Ribereau-Gayon quote. I’d just add that maybe Leonard and I (and half-a-dozen CellarTracker reviewers) have a greater than average sensitivity to IBMP.
Would you argue that the '01 Cos, '12 Ducru and the '10s: Lynch-M., Prieure-L, Rauzan-Segla are not “top examples of Bordeaux”? If so I have some top critics and a global wine market who would all disagree with you. Granted they aren’t from ripe vintages.
The '01 Cos, for example, got top scores (94WS, 93WA, 92ST) and the only mention of greenness in these three is ST, who only noted “mint.”
https://www.klwines.com/Products/i?s=14E67EF5CB92&i=1008837
What he said 
Doug… That is what takes place at all the top Bordeaux estates today. You see even more of those efforts in the difficult vintages than in the easier years. That was the reason for my comment. As we both agree, prior to 1989, green, pyrazine or other characteristics were, are quite noticeable. But it is one of the goals today to avoid those traits at the top estates today.
True, as I mentioned, it’s all about personal taste. Overripe fruits are noted by me with jam, fig, raisin notes. I do not find green in the same wine.
2) If grapes aren’t ripening at a normal pace (i.e. phenolic ripening), then it’s possible the hang time was increased, causing some mild raisination while still not eliminating pyrazines. This seems an unlikely reason given it’s Cos we’re talking about. This isn’t their first rodeo.
At top chateau, the goal is to remove underripe grapes through sorting, either by hand or using optical sorting machines. FWIW, by 2000, sorting intensified at Cos specifically. Vintages like 1996 Cos, as well as at all top chateau can show those green sensations. Some tasters still like those sensations and seek them out. Today, they are not considered desirable at most estates.
I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying here. Are you saying that the typical taster will not find greenness in top examples?
Today, at the top estates, it is very hard to find those flavors. Not impossible, but hard to find.
Would you argue that the '01 Cos, '12 Ducru and the '10s: Lynch-M., Prieure-L, Rauzan-Segla are not “top examples of Bordeaux”? If so I have some top critics and a global wine market who would all disagree with you. Granted they aren’t from ripe vintages. The '01 Cos, for example, got top scores (94WS, 93WA, 92ST) and the only mention of greenness in these three is ST, who only noted "mint."
I like all those wines and have tasting notes for each on my site. Probably more than one for each wine. So, I really do not care what others wrote about them, except for people posting this thread.
Are you saying most top producers take measures with the goal of avoiding noticeable green traits? I would agree but qualify this to add that just because that’s a goal of top producers does not mean they have in fact eradicated greenness. Thus we still consider some amount of greenness common in top Bordeaux, and from the point of view of MW/MS/wine critics, you might say there’s an acceptable amount of greenness that is “classic” for Bdx.
An analogy is TDN (petrol) in Australian Riesling. Sunlight exposure dramatically increases TDN, so in recent years growers have experimented and found ways of controlling TDN levels through canopy management. TDN is still typical for Riesling, even top Rieslings, because it does occur in top examples.
The tasting notes for the 2001 Cos were upon release. Chacun à son goût!
Sure, it happens, but extent is important, as is weather. Rather than debate theoretical presence, I’ll say that I’ve tasted a lot of 2009s, including a great number of 2nd-5th growths, and I find pyrazine notes in a huge portion of them. Only the most modern examples seem to have no trace for me, and many people (including me) think those extreme examples do not resemble classic Bordeaux.
Also, look at a vintage like 2011 and tell us it isn’t extremely widespread and even pronounced.
Doug… In 2009, personally, I do not find pyrazine notes. In 2011, it is much more likely that tasters will find those notes, as no estate was able to achieve phenolic ripeness. Extensive sorting took place, yields were quite low, but at the end of the day, I get it.
The obvious explanation is that your threshold for Pyrazine is higher than Doug’s, which accounts for your difference of perception on '09’s. It’s possible you and Doug are tasting these wines at very different stages in their evolution (i.e. maybe you taste 'em young and Doug tastes them with more maturity). Maybe someone can weigh in on pyrazine presence at different stages of maturation?
It does seem like you’re saying they aren’t present in a lot of wines because of a relatively high recognition threshold. Even so, saying the top wines in ripe vintages don’t tend to show pyrazines seems like a poor argument for those aromas not being a part of the classic Bordeaux profile. Only looking at top wines in ripe vintages doesn’t give much impression at all of the region as a whole. Whatever you think of that, I really think they’re present a lot more than you notice. Obviously 2011 is an extreme example on the other side, so I don’t want you to think my point rests on that. The green notes I’m talking about are often subtle, but they are there. I pick them up in double blind tastings, so I know I’m not imagining them.