TN: Clos des Papes 2001 - Same wine, four different glasses, 180ml pours, 14%vol

Leonard_Maran · August 19, 2014, 6:25am

My unscientific takeaway is that you don’t like Chateauneuf in Burgundy stemware.

Marc_Frontario · August 19, 2014, 1:13pm

One of my best experiences with a cab came from a $1 wine glass at some run of the mill Vietnamese restaurant…the wine was absolutely singing…this is the exact moment I realized that the whole glass phenomenon was most likely a bunch of phooey

Robert.A.Jr · August 19, 2014, 1:16pm

Then we are you always sticking your big nose in my Riedel decanters?!?!

Marc_Frontario · August 19, 2014, 1:36pm

This was my second best experience with a cab

Frank_Drew · August 19, 2014, 3:16pm

Glass shape, and, I suppose, size, absolutely affect the perception of aroma, but that whole Riedel bit about the importance of using the appropriate glass for particular wines because certain glass shapes direct the flow of wine onto different parts of the tongue is laughable. Do they imagine that the wine remains where it landed? Who drinks like that? Who could drink like that??

Marc_Frontario · August 19, 2014, 3:24pm

Someone from the Marketing dept. bucking for a promotion

Larry_P · August 19, 2014, 3:38pm

This is interesting because we recently did a “blind” test of our Schott Zweisel Pinot glass vs. Bordeaux glass. The wine was a 2008 Ladd Pinot Noir Moore Ranch. Despite being blindfolded and holding the glasses by the rim, it was easy to tell which glass had the wider bowl when swirling. Out of the Pinot glass the aromas were beautiful and remarkably expressive. Out of the Bordeaux glass I’d swear the wine was corked. This was completely undetectable in the Pinot glass. I was Sure the Bdx glass was tainted by cupboard funk or storage in a cardboard box or something, we washed the glasses thoroughly and re-tried, this time with an assistant holding the glass, and the result was the same and clearly obvious.

The experience left me less confident in calling a wine corked, but maybe you have an explanation. If I was scoring wines this was way more than a 10-point swing.

Eric_Lundblad · August 19, 2014, 4:34pm

Larry P:

Alan Rath:

because the glass acts something like a distillation column, with heavier, less volatile compounds less likely to reach the opening of the glass (e.g., TCA).

This is interesting because we recently did a “blind” test of our Schott Zweisel Pinot glass vs. Bordeaux glass. The wine was a 2008 Ladd Pinot Noir Moore Ranch. Despite being blindfolded and holding the glasses by the rim, it was easy to tell which glass had the wider bowl when swirling. Out of the Pinot glass the aromas were beautiful and remarkably expressive. Out of the Bordeaux glass I’d swear the wine was corked. This was completely undetectable in the Pinot glass. I was Sure the Bdx glass was tainted by cupboard funk or storage in a cardboard box or something, we washed the glasses thoroughly and re-tried, this time with an assistant holding the glass, and the result was the same and clearly obvious.

The experience left me less confident in calling a wine corked, but maybe you have an explanation. If I was scoring wines this was way more than a 10-point swing.

So you think the wine was corked, rather than something else Larry? If so, I’ll get a replacement bottle to you. Tho I’ve had a very low amount of corked wines, lower than I’d expect, I’m probably going to switch to Diam10 corks to address this…and get the consistent Oxygen Transmission rate. Wes Hagen did a video (linked below) about how Clos Pepe switched to Diam and what Wes had interpreted as a small nagging amout of bottle variation disappeared with the Diam use. He attributed this to natural corks variable oxygen transmission and various low level (not clearly identifiable) tainting (tca and other) of the wine. Make sense to me. Oh and sorry for the thread drift.

Alan_Rath · August 19, 2014, 5:03pm

Would have been interesting to try a smaller glass to compare as well. But the bigger question: how did the taste of the wine compare from the two glasses?

To follow up on your story, years ago a wine group I was in was doing a blind tasting of a bunch of wines. We got to one Chardonnay, I was behind a bit, but found the wine obviously corked. For some reason, I had a fairly crappy glass, one of those kind of squashed burgundy glasses from a restaurant, wide, but fairly short. Everyone else had what you’d call taller Chardonnay glasses. No one else had spotted TCA at that point, I took my glass around, and it was obvious to everyone out of that glass, but I could not detect it from their glasses. That’s one reason I always taste from a small glass (usually the Riedel OUVERTURE Red Wine). If one thinks the surface/volume ratio of the liquid to air space in the glass is a factor in picking up aromas, a smaller glass is far better from that perspective as well.

Larry_P · August 19, 2014, 5:11pm

Eric Lundblad:

Larry P:

Alan Rath:

because the glass acts something like a distillation column, with heavier, less volatile compounds less likely to reach the opening of the glass (e.g., TCA).

This is interesting because we recently did a “blind” test of our Schott Zweisel Pinot glass vs. Bordeaux glass. The wine was a 2008 Ladd Pinot Noir Moore Ranch. Despite being blindfolded and holding the glasses by the rim, it was easy to tell which glass had the wider bowl when swirling. Out of the Pinot glass the aromas were beautiful and remarkably expressive. Out of the Bordeaux glass I’d swear the wine was corked. This was completely undetectable in the Pinot glass. I was Sure the Bdx glass was tainted by cupboard funk or storage in a cardboard box or something, we washed the glasses thoroughly and re-tried, this time with an assistant holding the glass, and the result was the same and clearly obvious.

The experience left me less confident in calling a wine corked, but maybe you have an explanation. If I was scoring wines this was way more than a 10-point swing.

So you think the wine was corked, rather than something else Larry? If so, I’ll get a replacement bottle to you. Tho I’ve had a very low amount of corked wines, lower than I’d expect, I’m probably going to switch to Diam10 corks to address this…and get the consistent Oxygen Transmission rate. Wes Hagen did a video (linked below) about how Clos Pepe switched to Diam and what Wes had interpreted as a small nagging amout of bottle variation disappeared with the Diam use. He attributed this to natural corks variable oxygen transmission and various low level (not clearly identifiable) tainting (tca and other) of the wine. Make sense to me. Oh and sorry for the thread drift.

Wes Hagen's Weekly Wine Blog: 8.4.2014: Corks and Screwcaps and DIAM, Oh My! - YouTube

Eric, thanks for the offer but no way would I accept a replacement bottle. We enjoyed the wine tremendously from the Pinot glasses. I’m still struggling for an explanation of the Bdx glass performance, but I can’t blame the wine.

Larry_P · August 19, 2014, 5:13pm

Alan Rath:

Larry P:

Out of the Pinot glass the aromas were beautiful and remarkably expressive. Out of the Bordeaux glass I’d swear the wine was corked. This was completely undetectable in the Pinot glass. I was Sure the Bdx glass was tainted by cupboard funk or storage in a cardboard box or something, we washed the glasses thoroughly and re-tried, this time with an assistant holding the glass, and the result was the same and clearly obvious.

Would have been interesting to try a smaller glass to compare as well. But the bigger question: how did the taste of the wine compare from the two glasses?

To follow up on your story, years ago a wine group I was in was doing a blind tasting of a bunch of wines. We got to one Chardonnay, I was behind a bit, but found the wine obviously corked. For some reason, I had a fairly crappy glass, one of those kind of squashed burgundy glasses from a restaurant, wide, but fairly short. Everyone else had what you’d call taller Chardonnay glasses. No one else had spotted TCA at that point, I took my glass around, and it was obvious to everyone out of that glass, but I could not detect it from their glasses. That’s one reason I always taste from a small glass (usually the Riedel OUVERTURE Red Wine). If one thinks the surface/volume ratio of the liquid to air space in the glass is a factor in picking up aromas, a smaller glass is far better from that perspective as well.

I didn’t note any difference in taste, but I’m so much more focused on aromatics it’s difficult to say. We do have several Ouverture Red glasses (we use them for white wine) so next time we’ll throw that in the mix.

Mark_B · August 19, 2014, 10:08pm

C’mon guys, if Riedel can “improve” the taste of Coke, clearly, their wine glasses make all the difference.

Merrill_Lindquist · September 2, 2014, 1:09am

I am struggling to articulate why I am preferring the Zalto glass so much. I have around 150 Riedel and Spiegelau stems, and since 10 Zaltos moved into the house, the others are mostly untouched. I can’t explain it. I mentioned this phenomenon to a few other geeks, and they just shrugged and said “I know.” Sick, I tell you.

One thing for sure, Zalto is easier to spell.

Matthew_Slywka · September 2, 2014, 12:11pm

Interesting premise. Going to have to try this myself.

Greg_Hirson · September 2, 2014, 4:12pm

It is very difficult to remove contextual clues from experiments of this type.

I did my masters thesis on this topic (Equilibration Time and Glass Shape Effects on Chemical and Sensory Properties of Wine | American Journal of Enology and Viticulture).

Whether it is setting up expectations based on thinness of the glass or size of the glass, all of these factor in to evaluation of quality.
My panelists were blindfolded and I held the wine up to their nose. There was no tasting in my experiment in order to remove the context clues indicated. Others have blindfolded tasters and placed the wine glasses in flower pots to remove contextual clues.

We were able to find very (very) small differences in perceived aroma intensities. As for preference, that is a different ball game all together. If you put 10 tasters in isolation and give them the same wine in 5 glasses, it would be very surprising if there was a (statistically valid) favorite.

Larry_P · September 2, 2014, 4:48pm

Greg Hirson:

It is very difficult to remove contextual clues from experiments of this type.

I did my masters thesis on this topic (Equilibration Time and Glass Shape Effects on Chemical and Sensory Properties of Wine | American Journal of Enology and Viticulture).

Whether it is setting up expectations based on thinness of the glass or size of the glass, all of these factor in to evaluation of quality.
My panelists were blindfolded and I held the wine up to their nose. There was no tasting in my experiment in order to remove the context clues indicated. Others have blindfolded tasters and placed the wine glasses in flower pots to remove contextual clues.

We were able to find very (very) small differences in perceived aroma intensities. As for preference, that is a different ball game all together. If you put 10 tasters in isolation and give them the same wine in 5 glasses, it would be very surprising if there was a (statistically valid) favorite.

Thanks for sharing that Greg, and brilliant to drink some Gewurz for your masters thesis (kidding!)

Alan_Rath · September 2, 2014, 5:26pm

I figured this must have been done a number of times, thanks for posting! Is there any way to get the full article without having access to the subscription site?

D_Wirsig · September 2, 2014, 6:14pm

I’m not surprised about these results. I recently worked on a show involving experiments with a number of blindfolded tasters. When holding a strongly scented food under their nose and eating different food with similar texture, all of them thought they were eating the other food (fish/ chicken, etc).

Apparently research shows roughly 80% of our sense of flavor comes from smell. One interesting experiment w/ wine might be to blindfold subjects, have them smell one wine, taste another, and see what they think they are drinking.