Rob, I may not have been clear. You said “The only problem is the vast number of buyers are using the gas to “save” the bottle after they’ve been drinking it for an hour or so, and in that case, it is virtually useless.” What I’m interested in is the reason that so many people continue to use these products as you say they do… after the bottle has been open an hour… if the truth is that it doesn’t do any good. Do they all have such weak sensitivity that they can’t tell oxidized wine? Is the wine not really degrading much, so the whole process is a waste of time? I agree that even the best gas preservation products would be best used immediately upon pouring (as evidenced by the method employed in closed system units, like Enomatic). But, as you are aware, most people don’t use the devices that way. So… why do they keep using them? I guess I should be honest and say that my own evidence really doesn’t support your claim. Injected Argon seems to work well for up to a week in most cases. But, having said that, I DO believe that the ability of any preservation method to work is as much or more in the palate sensitivity of the taster as in the method or device. Again… just sayin’.
What Chaad and PeterJ said
We never have wine left in a bottle, except for some Ports and Madeiras. We’ve even been known to argue over who gets to finish the bottle. Therefore I have never tried any methods for keeping wine. Over the years there have been a couple bottles that i put back in the cellar with just a clean cork stuck back in. After an indeterminate period of time, the wine was still very drinkable.
Peter J, Ignorance of wine is the reason many continue using a “preservation” system that does little to preserve a wine from the effects of oxygen. Ignorance of wine is, unfortunately a keystone of the wine biz on the consumer & occasionally “expert” side - sad to say, but that’s a whole 'nother thread. Ignorance: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness. “pileon” I’m not surprised you believe your “evidence” disagrees with my claim. You do sell gas preservation systems - be pretty hard to do if you couldn’t stand behind the product & theory in some way. just belaboring a point . . . Again . . . “[cheers.gif]”
I use a two-stage system: Stomach, and then veins.
And there you have it, Ladies & Gentlemen, as Victor succinctly put it, the most reliable system known to modern science, & the last word (doubtful!) on the subject! “[winner.gif]” Cheers to wine & reason! “[cheers.gif]” “deadhorse”
Sure. I DO sell preservation systems, but I do that because of years of examples of experience that it works. And the experience isn’t just my own, but that of many, many people with much more expertise than I possess. You’re, of course, entitled to your position, but I find it completely mind-blowing that so many otherwise knowledgeable people go to all that trouble and expense for no reason. It’s also odd that they will do controlled tests and conclude that one type of preservation is better than another. What I really think is behind this is the likelihood that people have such a wide range of palate sensitivity that some can distinguish even the slightest oxidation, while others can’t. When I owned my wine shop and tasting room I had a customer who could pick out just about any bottle that had been open more than a day… no matter what I did to preserve it. That makes much more sense to me than a blanket dismissal of the efficacy of preservation. [BTW, I think the same could be said about sensitivity to TCA. At least that would seem to explain why so many people say they rarely have a corked bottle when the industry states would say otherwise.]
Peter, Having been in & around the business of drinking, making, growing, selling & collecting wine since the late 70’s I’m not the least bit surprised that “so many otherwise knowledgeable people go to all that trouble and expense for no reason.” When people are not that knowledgeable, or ignorant about wine they tend to do a lot of silly thinks. You give your customers & other “experts” more respect than I do quite frankly. I don’t think your argument holds up. You can chalk it up to my opinion. How many people pay too much for poor wine - over & over & over. “Otherwise knowledgeable” people going through all that trouble & expense for no reason. You said you’ve sold wine, so you must have seen this phenomenon. How many “knowledgeable” people smell the cork given them by the Sommelier. An absolutely useless exercise. I’m not trying to disparage you or your preservation system, but I’m sure the “They” doing the testing are connected to the manufacturer. Besides that, as I said somewhere above - I’ve got a pretty sharp palate for both flaws & positive attributes of wine & I have tried these experiments myself & the only time I see any effect that can be sensed is when as soon as the bottle is opened, 1/2 the contents are poured into a split & gassed & put in the Fridge. The biggest factor that I’M blown away by & that you don’t accept is that the majority of the uses of products like this are after a decent amount of time in which the wine has unquestionable absorbed a decent chunk of oxygen. It’s dissolved in the wine & is & will be reacting with it no matter what you do. It’s at this point that most of these systems are used - after the wine has absorbed dissolved oxygen. I don’t think I need to be Einstein to know what’s happening to that wine. The average wine drinkers sensitivity, or lack of for all sorts of flaws is another reason they may not really notice the deterioration in the wine. That’s all I’m saying. To me these things seem pretty self evident & I’m surprised so many Disagree with me. Anyway - those are the points I wanted to make, & maybe they are slightly clearer now, or we’ll just have to agree to disagree, K? Cheers “[cheers.gif]”
I don’t think you can call sniffing the cork an “absolutely useless” exercise, particularly if you’re faced with a wine of uncertain condition.
I don’t really want to belabor this discussion as we obviously are coming at it from very different perspectives. But… I would really like to know if you have any scientific knowledge as to the absorption rate of oxygen in air into wine. It does seem obvious that it happens (or wineries wouldn’t need to sparge), but what would seem important to ask about is the rate at which it happens and the relationship between that and the sensitivity to it’s result on the palate of tasters. The one thing you’ll never shake me on is the belief that palate sensitivity varies wildly between individuals. Anyway… no issue with you personally, except with the possibility that I do think the word “ignorant” is a bit over the top in describing those who don’t share your own experience. Cheers back “[cheers.gif]”
Hey Chaad, Let me ask you a question just to clarify: Do you hold with what I would call the myth of smelling the cork at table? If so, why? I’m sure we’ve both tasted our share of corked wines. I’m just curious as to what you think smelling the cork can consistently tell you about the wine in the bottle.
Inspecting the cork, both visually and by smell, can help you understand the condition of a wine. For example, if a wine seems to be less fruity than you would expect, yet you don’t notice the definite mustiness of cork taint, a sniff of the cork, if it smells musty or dank, would be another factor in determining the wine “off” or tainted.
Hey Peter, I wouldn’t mind having a look at you testing results. I don’t have exact scientific knowledge of the rate/amounts of oxygen uptake in wine after a bottle is open other than my palate . . . yet. You’ve got me curious. I’ll check with my lab & see if they can test for dissolved oxygen. BTW - I edited my “ignorance” remark. Not sure if you’ll agree with it now or not, but it is accurate & what I meant to convey. Another point: I totally agree with you on the variability of tasters palates & the effect that can have on our discussion. I thought that was implied in what I’d said, but just to be clear. Thanks & Cheers!
Chaad, Smelling the cork, not visually inspecting it was the discussion point here. Naturally a cork should be visually inspected. I have had horribly corked wines where there is no aroma of TCA,TBA or any off aromas in the cork & some pretty funky corks that the wine was completely without cork or any other taint. A wine you’re familiar with having seemingly diminished fruit certainly is one of the possible signs of TCA, but usually if you can notice the diminution of fruit, the wine should smell at least mildly corked. Smelling the cork is not gunna tell you much, and certainly not consistently. And there will be times where the cork is funky & the wine is corked, but the funkyness of the cork has nothing to do with the wine containing TCA,TBA. I just think it’s an extremely silly, inconsistent & unreliable, misleading exercise that becomes ever more useless & silly the less knowledge & trained palate you have, & it’s just not really good for wine in general. You didn’t really answer my question: Do you think restaurant patrons should “sniff the cork?”
[quote=“Rob Hansult”] Hey Peter, I wouldn’t mind having a look at your testing results. [quote] Rob, They aren’t scientific testing results. The guys at a well-known local wine webcast/website have been doing some testing of the unit and have said they’re up to 7 days with no apparent oxidation. Also, another wine blogger of some repute has said he was fine with it after three days (he didn’t try more because that’s his personal limit for any opened wine). My own observation is a week or so, depending on the wine, but I know my palate is not as sensitive as that of others, so I’ve asked for independent evaluations. The argon I use is specifically targeted to the food & beverage industry and is used more and more by wineries for sparging and for topping off tanks. I recently received some info that debunked the rather widely-held notion that whatever gas is used forms a layer on top of the wine. The argon apparently begins mixing with the wine almost immediately, so the methodology is to inject enough argon into the space to create an argon-rich environment. Just how much argon seems to depend on palate sensitivity, but the ultimate (which squares with your thought) is to inject enough to purge virtually all the air. I’ve been able to create a matrix of how long to inject gas in relation to the amount of empty space. “[drinks.gif]”
I agree the cork ain’t gonna tell you much, but having your opinion that a wine is off, funky, or otherwise damaged to be validated (or backed up) by a look and/or sniff of the cork isn’t useless, particularly if you were uncertain about what you were tasting in the first place. Regarding the restaurant custom, I see no harm in presenting the cork to the diner, but admit that I would only smell it, as a diner, after tasting the wine if I had cause to think it “off.” As a sommelier or waiter, I always smelled the cork before pouring wine to taste, because almost invariably, a corked cork means a corked wine, and I’d rather just grab a new bottle rather than grab a new bottle and a new glass! That said, if you don’t smell well, then yeah, sniffing the cork is pretty pointless. 
Chaad, You still haven’t actually answer my question. What we have here is a failure to communicate . . . and flawed methodology. Not really surprising in the world of wine where “experts” can create themselves out of thin air merely by proclamation. “[cheers.gif]” “With my super powers of observation I’m sensing . . . Thread Drift.” attributed to Darryl Zero
“[scratch.gif]”
I think it’s time to give up on this one. “[truce.gif]”
I actually did a semi-scientific experiment on preservation methods a couple of years ago. I preserved bottles of wine with plain stopper, plain stopper with Private Preserve, and Vacu-Vin. I kept one bottle with each method in the fridge, and one on the counter. I tasted all 6 bottles, plus a freshly opened bottle 1, 3, and 5 days after opening, all tasted blind. I tasted every bottle initially to make sure they were pretty consistent. Long story short, the only difference that I could reliably detect was the bottles kept in the fridge all tasted a little fresher. I couldn’t reliably differentiate any of the closure/gas methods. I wish I had added the “pour into a smaller bottle” method, but I’ve never tried that because it seems a little high-maintenance for me. In any case, I haven’t used vacu-vin or gas since then. Just my $.02.
