SOLD! Provenance beyond reproach! I never question these things!
I think your question equally oversimplifies the argument also. Sure the quick and easy skeptics quip of “prove it” can be frustrating in an argument but providing back an extreme example is no more than useless hyperbole.
I would propose this scenario as something to consider: case A of vintage X is purchased at release and stored under cave aged perfect conditions until maturity. Case B of vintage X is purchased at retail after being stored at climate controlled albeit room temperature (let’s say 70 degrees F) for a couple of years then stored in same cave as case A until maturity. Assuming these are the same wine and there were no heat damage or large swings in temp, would anyone be able to tell the difference? Case B was not stored under “perfect condition” but will this wine be perceptibly different than case A? There is an enormous amount of grey area that doesn’t qualify as “perfect storage” justifying some skepticism in the assumption that perfectly stored wine will always be better that wine not stored perfectly.
In terms of the word “perfectly” being included in this, you are correct. Perceiving the difference between perfect and slightly less than perfect is a grey area indeed.
But I sense Markus’ position goes beyond saying that perfect versus almost perfect makes no difference. It sounds like he is arguing storage conditions as a very small factor or non factor. I could be wrong, since communication is sadly subjective and dependent on perceived meaning 
That said, if he wants to base an entire line of argument on the proposition that there is no difference to him on the basis of storage then the first thing you do is test the proposition itself.
My question does do that efficiently by focusing on what matters – is there ANY difference to him?
If Yes then we need to examine how much and why.
If No, then he has confirmed his own proposition and I can accept that wothout further argument.
Point well taken Barry, I suppose if you were simply trying to determine whether he believed that there is NO difference made by storage conditions. I just couldn’t imagine that someone who participates in a forum such as this would believe that there is no difference. Little difference maybe, but I just couldn’t have imagined that someone would say storage makes absolutely no difference.
Agreed.
And if he does assign a different value to wine stored in poor conditions, my next curiosity would be the DEGREE of discount he’d want in that case. That assigns a weighted value to his belief. Does he expect $10 off, $40, $80? Would he buy them at all?
But first I wanted to see if he assessed them as equal value.
Easy to prove one extreme (poor storage conditions,) but difficult to ‘prove’ the other. (If poor treatment is to be avoided, then what’s wrong at the ‘prove it’ level with gentle treatment?)
“Proving” the impact of ever smaller variations in storage becomes more difficult still.
So, given the known downside of ‘extreme’ mis-storing, we can ask the ‘prove it’ crowd to tell us at which point different conditions no longer have an impact and we can go from there.
Make it the ‘prove it’ guy’s problem.
If I say I store my wine in the dark, one its side, at 53 degrees and my favored humidity…it’s up to him to prove me wrong. I know my track record, prove I am wasting my time.
Otherwise, he should actively store his ‘prove it’ stick at 99.6 degrees and kept where the sun don’t shine. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
I’m not sure which is more remarkable – the fact that the original question was asked or that we’re up to 25 contentious responses.
![[scratch.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/4/42a16863a8714da3c1604419e3eb9206bb87aa50.gif "scratch"){kind=small}
I think Scott has figured out what I so snippily replied. I was taken aback by the smug attitude of Alan’s assumption, and have not always seen this assumption work out in true practice. Yes, of course, all things being equal I would rather have a pristinely stored bottle versus one that was heat roasted on the 3rd tier of a liquor warehouse (yes, these places do or did exist!).
Well, there’s only so much DRC or SQN discussion that can be done.
Are screwcaps a waste of tin?
I’ve done close to this experiment. Three cases of 1983 Prieure Lichine purchased on release in 1986 from the same retailer. Half stored in my father’s passive basement at 65 degrees in winter to a peak of 75 degrees in summer, the other half stored in my 55 degree temp controlled cellar. I inherited his half in 1992, after 6 years of passive storage, and placed it in my celllar. Multiple comparisons over the next 15 years, some blind and some not, showed a preference for the passively stored wine for the first few years, but by 1996 the actively stored wine was consistently better: brighter fruit, greater complexity.
One of my great wine experiences was a 2005 JJ Prum G-H GKA that was undoubtedly stored in horrific storage conditions (the store I purchased from is well known for it, but the price was too good). The flip side is that Auslese rieslings are probably about as bombproof as non-fortified wines get against poor storage. The wine was most definitely very advanced for its age and showed just beautifully. Makes me wonder if I should store all my ausleses in wine incubators instead at a nice 80 F…
I am sure that storage conditions will definitely make a difference, but it’s unclear to me if 55F is necessarily superior to 45F or 65F. But who wants to test every permutation of cellar conditions when we know that typical cellar conditions for the last hundreds of years have produced a near infinite number of sublime aged wine experiences? I am an impatient man, so I turn the knob on my Euroave a few notches up to a nice balmy 59F.
Yes. I have quite a bit of experience opening bottles that have been stored in a retail environment for 2-3 years, and they often degrade a LOT faster than they would in what we consider proper cellar conditions. Even with wines that I know should age well for decades are often clearly headed down a bad path after 2-3 years of 68-72 degrees. I don’t have cellared bottles for comparison, but I find obvious issues in too high a percentage of bottles to think storage isn’t the cause.
Some people here have stories of poorly stored bottles aging well. I have no doubt that it can happen, but I know the odds of such bottles showing well years down the road are far lower than they would be with proper storage.
Not necessarily so; some years ago I bought about a case assortment of higher pradikat Rieslings from a Washington, DC retailer not then known for terrific storage; the bottles were probably 10 years old when I bought them and they were all tired and generally unappealing. A few years later I bought a similar quality, similarly aged assortment from Brown Derby, in Missouri and they do have good storage conditions and the bottles were all in mint condition, fills like new releases, and fresh, bright flavors. Not a scientifically useful comparison, I’m sure, but it confirmed what I’d already experienced with bottles of my own and from others.
For bombproof wines, buy Madeira, they’re already cooked!
So, it is either labels with clarity and color or wines with clarity and color - I agree, give me the latter.
I tend to disagree.
Point 1)Some of the best showing bottles of wines I have had came from less than desirable conditions for most if not all of their life and they still showed beautifully. A founding member ofone of the tasting groups I was in had over 1k bottles and no wine cellar/no wine fridge nothing what so ever other that racking in the corner of his basement. HE did run a dehumidifier over the summer months in the later years but otherwise no AC, no heat,nada.
Point 2) I was in napa few years back in August at a BIG winery and they had skids/palettes full of cases if wines sitting outside in direct sunlight for the entire time we were there. At end of tasting day we wnet back to this wineryand all the cases were still outside (5 hours later)
point 3) how many bottles I purchased on release, stored in my cellar, opened and disappointed --countless!
point 4) How may old gems I have purchased off the shelf of a wine shop brought home and opened and drank beautifully —countless!
If storage conditions can affect wine, and I don’t think anyone thinks it can’t, then it follows that different storage conditions will have different effects on wine. That storage condition you define as “perfect,” being different from all others will cause some differences, ranging from great to miniscule from all other storage conditions and those differences will produce the best version of the wine for you. Whether “perfect” for you accords with the usual definitions with regard to temperature and humidity is another question, and whether the possibly miniscule differences that may occur from variations from it is another question still.
David,
Interesting points indeed. With regards to the winery in Napa, are you sure that they were full pallets of wine and not just empty glass waiting for an upcoming bottling? I ask because that is a common site - full pallets of wine in direct sunlight would not.
There is no doubt that wine stored under ‘better’ conditions stands a better chance of ‘performing better’ over a long period of time. It does not guarantee a thing of course - and that’s the challenge.
As far as your friend with the 1000 bottles stored under less than ideal conditions, the one thing no one will know is how those wines would have showed under different conditions unless you were able to do a/b comparisons. It’s awesome that they performed well - but who truly knows?
There are some anecdotal stories above that seem to show that storage / travel conditions can adversely affect wines, especially when looking at a/b comparisons, but as with everything else in wine, YMMV.
I have customer who want me to ship wines only when temperatures through the entire route from my storage facility to their door is no higher than 60 degrees, and I have others who ask me to ship away in the middle of summer . . .
Cheers.