So your question is only related to Southern? I don’t see what else distributors can do on top of providing delivery in a refrigerated truck? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you here.
Re: Southern and standard trucks: I think it’s important to look at the big picture, especially for wines with a quick turnover that are going to be drunk within days (if not hours) of purchase. There is no rational reason to apply extra measures for the Denver-Trinidad part of their life compared to whatever abuse they might have gone through before. If they made it from Cali to Colorado in July and then sat for a few weeks in a non-temperature-controlled warehouse, then they can ship in a standard truck… I honestly wouldn’t worry too much about those.
Think about it for beer, a beverage that can also suffer from poor storage: people have different standard for Bud and for $30 luxury bottlings. What Southern is going to provide you is the Bud (or Miller or whatever) of the wine world.
Guillaume, I am happy with refrigerated delivery and ask nothing else. My concern is that Southern poo poo’s the idea that it is necessary.
Also, I am of the (perhaps mistaken) belief that subtle heat damage not only hurts a wine’s age worthiness, but also its immediate enjoyability. If all a wine has to offer is freshness and simple forward fruit, not much might be left after riding in a 120 degree truck for 4+ hours. Inventory turns don’t help that. Also, AFAIK, beer is generally delivered refrigerated in August. Even the supermarket brands.
Most know I have a fish to fry in this area of discussion, as my wife works for SWS. Hopefully all the bashing won’t see us eating pork’n’beans in the near future.
Honestly, as Guill. states and T. alludes a bit much can at times be made over shipping. I cetainly am not saying that a refrigerated environment wouldn’t be, at the very least, insurance. Still aside from the trip from the wearhouse to the account, wine goes through a lot of shipping and channels. Especially everyday wines.
The debate seems pretty simple to me. Don’t deal with them if you don’t like the policies. However, they have a lot of the name products, especially in the everyday category. So to some extent everyone has to decide whether a customer will buy a substituted product.
Anyhow, why not just order a couple of cases of basic wines (white and red) and taste for yourself. Personally, I don’t see a real “freshness” aspect to Calif. chard. etc…, and honestly haven’t noticed a heat effect via drinking a ton of SWS wine. If you detect something lacking due or some damage return them and don’t buy in the heat. If you can’t notice the heat damage, then maybe it isn’t there or as serious as feared. You could even order some imports (ala Bord) that are not exclusive to SWS, from them and another vendor that ostensibly will ship refrigerated to you. Taste them side-by-side.
No bashing intended, at all, John. As a newbie, I am just trying to sort out what I might think is important versus what, in actual practice, is important. Also, I’m a big believer in the “willing-buyer, willing-seller” principle. Far be it for me to tell Southern what their policies should be. My only decision is whether to buy in the Summer heat or to delay.
I like your idea of doing an apples to apples comparison (blind, of course) with refrigerated vs non-refrigerated delivery for an SWS wine that is carried by another distributor. I have so many other demands on my time right now that I may not get to it. If I do, though, I’ll be sure to post about it here.
John… she’s talking about stocking a new shop with brands they andonly they carry. While it’s a nice thought to grab a couple of cases or not to do this during hot weather that’s tantamount to saying “don’t open your shop now.”
And I’m sorry, but the attitude that we make too much of shipping conditions is crap. Wine DOES NOT TRAVEL well in 80+ temps and I’m sick and tired of apologists for shipping decent wine around in conditions like that. It’s lazy, cynical and disrespectful of the product and the people who buy it - and pay for Southern and others’ businesses. 70 degree temps? Meh, not worried about that. But if you’re in the business of shipping or delivering wine and the temps are over 80 (and thus way hotter in your truck), do the right thing and bring the interior temps down to ~70 or so. I don’t care if they’re 55, but 95? That’s indefensible. What, the guys who deliver eggs and veggies can afford to but Southern’s margins are too tight to allow it? BS.
PS: The argument that a wine might have seen worse conditions upstream is irrelevant. That might be true, but doesn’t excuse adding to the damage. And if the wine hasn’t been mistreated upstream, mistreating it in the last step is cynical and wrong.
One small store in Trinidad Colorado is not going to be able to change the shipping laws of the biggest liquor and wine wholesaler in the state - so you either play with them, or you don’t -
Now remember that Michele is not going to be shipping 1st Growth Bordeaux on these trucks - it’s going to be Major labels of low end California and Australian wines - and you do have the right to return wines that have been damaged -
So it’s a catch 22 situation - a customer asks for Rosemount Shiraz - she’s told that because the wholesaler doesn’t have refrigerated trucks, they don’t carry it - now the customer could care less about the shipping - she just wants her bottle of Rosemount Shiraz - so she leaves and goes elsewhere - and probably never comes back -
So you either carry those labels - or you lose the sale - not much else to it -
Thanks for pointing out that my/another opinion is “crap” Rick.
I tried to give Michelle some input on her question, which is seemingly more than you did. Though as usual, responding at all as someone who is involved with SWS brings out a flamethrower.
Michelle obviously does have other available suppliers. So she CAN buy a limited/small quantity from SWS as a test-run. Doing so has nothing to do with her ability to open her shop. Here people can order up to 4pm for next day delivery, and though I imagine it is less frequent there, I doubt the test run and re-order involves much delay.
We can argue about the extent of heat damage to wine. I obviously agree (and said so) that refrigeration is ideal. However the fact that wine is exposed to heat at other parts of the shipping chain (including trucks and docks in countries of export) IS relevant as it sheds some light as to whether exposure does ruin wine. I can also tell you that Mary ships millions of dollars worth of wine a year to accounts and the return rate for all damage is incredibly low. Again though, that’s just my opinion, and based on SoCal. As I suggested to Michelle, it’s pretty simple to order some wine and taste it. If you can’t taste it, it might not be such a big deal.
She can also obviously decide what tier products to buy from whom. However there’s a cost involved with not carrying brands (often name recognized) by the biggest wholesaler. Her original post indicates that most of what’s in question is meant to drink young. If a brand can sell, and doesn’t taste damaged, I just wouldn’t worry as much as you about $25 cabernet.
I agree with Rick; wine is a perishable product and needs to be treated appropriately.
John, does Southern only carry inexpensive wines meant to be consumed almost immediately? Or are there any wines on those unrefrigerated trucks that are meant for extended cellaring? If you could choose between a bottle that never got above 70º and one that spent hours in a truck at assuredly well over 90º, which bottle would you choose? Knowing your answer, why won’t Southern give their customers the same easy choice?
There are no good arguments in support of careless shipping (i.e. no AC in the summer); it all comes down to the desire to save what are really small amounts of money vs. being responsible to the product and customer.
Around here freaking Bud Lite is delivered in a refrigerated truck; as is fresh pizza dough, etc., etc, etc. ad infinitum… But of course those are high end products and the outlets who buy them are able to tack on huge markups to cover the enormous costs of temperature controlled delivery.
In Indiana there are only 2 (maybe just one) that deliver in refrigerated trucks. There is no option to get the vast majority of wines delivered in temp controlled trucks. The wholesalers don’t care and the producers themselves should accept responsibility b/c they obviously don’t care either. Pet peeve of mine.
You can deal with having to have wines like Kendall Jackson Chardonnay and Rosemount Shiraz shipped on trucks that aren’t refrigerated when you have the no choice -
The biggest problem with dealing with companies that have those big unrefrigerated trucks is this -
CLOSEOUTS - Big companies like Southern always have deep closeout lists - so the temptation of purchasing a Cote Rotie for $10 a bottle when it was normally $35 wholesale cost can be grueling -
You really can’t pass up great deals sometimes - so you ship the wine, pop a cork to see what it is like (aside from other clues) and send it back if it seems burnt or mishandled -
I see; so what about wines that just aren’t as good as they should be due to the heat? Maybe nothing so obvious as totally cooked, but tired, not fresh, negative qualities that might not show up immediately. You okay with that?
And in the press of business, I think it’s fair to say that most cases of wine at most retailers are simply unloaded with no quality check. Do you check a bottle from every case during the summer?
The crap comment wasn’t personal. I just have zero patience with the idea that it’s OK to ship/delivery wine in a searing hot truck. Any wine. For no better reason than some tiny percentage of increased margin. I simply cannot think of any reason for delivering wine in 90F+ temps in an truck that’s not temp-controlled aside from “we don’t give a flying crap about the product or the people who drink it” or “we’re too cheap.”
I don’t care if the truck is cellar temp, but there’s no good reason delivery trucks can’t be cooled to be around 70F and, to me, making excuses or saying, like Thomas does that it’s just KJ Chard, etc misses the point. All I’m asking is that, for a few months during the year, the truck is kept under, say, 75F. Not at 55. Just under 75. Not doing that shows contempt for the product and for the people who are, ultimately, the reason Southern and other companies stay in business.
I would think most of these trucks are insulated, not refrigerated. So wine coming from a temp controlled warehouse, loaded in the morning into an insulated truck heading out for a day of deliveries, will be ok.
And yes, you get your Cakebread / Caymus along with your Rosemount with Southern.
T-Bone… If the truck stayed closed, that would work, but by defintion, it doesn’t… so even if they load the truck and close it in a cool environment, the cool air leaves when they open it at stops. Right? Or am I missing something?
To me, if the air in the back of the truck gets to 90+ and the wine’s just in regular boxes (not shippers, etc), the wine is going to heat pretty quickly. Morning deliveries are going to be OK, but afternoon ones? Esp if it’s 80 by 10-11am?
Thanks for the input, Peter. Sorry, I didn’t see your post until now.
To answer your questions, I was told that they have air conditioned warehouses (which probably means 70 something degrees). Not exactly a margin for safety once that truck hits the road in 90+ degree weather. Me picking up in Denver is feasible, yes…but kind of impractical compared to waiting a few weeks until the heat calms down. I haven’t decided yet what to do. But, I am very grateful for all the informed input here.
You know, it’s not such a big deal I guess if we were talking about a few cases of sub-$20 wine. I just dont want to have a fourth or so of my opening stock subtly heat damaged. Separate and apart from my high-end wines, I’d rather sell fresh Yellow Tail than (effectively) 5-year old Yellow Tail. Mind you, I have nothing against Southern making their own policies (willing buyer, willing seller). I just have to decide how much of my opening order to allocate to them.
I worked for a large distributor (not SWS) many, many moons ago, in a very hot part of the country, and they would keep the bay doors open most of the day with no temp control. I questioned it and they just blew me off. Every other distributor I’ve worked with since has temp controlled warehouses, thank goodness.
One other question is “how many buyers / receivers actually go inside the truck when their order arrives?” I would think very few to none. The order comes in on a hand truck, stacked up, and checked in. Unless the buyer is physically opening up each case and checking the temp of the bottles and seeing if any corks are pushing, I don’t see anything happening differently. If you really care, you will walk inside that truck when your delivery comes, inspect your order, and make a decision there. I don’t see or hear of that happening very much. (but please correct me if I’m wrong).
Frank, I’m sure John agress with you on this, as I do. But this thread is not about a perfect world and whether wine should only travel in refrigerated trucks (of course it should) but about the real world and whether one (Michelle, in this case) should decide to live with her distributor’s rules or not.
Since we’re talking about $5 wines, I think she can live with those rules. Of course we are missing a few key elements, such as whether the same wines are available from another distributor, whether the cost would be the same, etc.
How about treating your customers like adults? Most adults would understand, and appreciate, that a responsible retailer was watching out for their interests if the retailer explained why he/she didn’t want to pass on possibly damaged goods.
And people ITB wonder why the retailer/customer relationship can be adversarial.
Ah, as long as we’re not cheating the customer out of too much money, that makes it ok?
Thanks for the clarification.
And how do you know what kinds of wines are on that truck? Do you imagine that the distributor has a refrigerated truck for their expensive wines, and one not refrigerated for the everyday wines (the ones you don’t mind being damaged)?
You know, this isn’t an intellectual exercise we’re playing at here; some of us believe that changes are needed in how wines are handled if we’re going to get our money’s worth from the wines be buy.
The argument that it’s OK for the cheap stuff isn’t reality - There’s $5 wine and $50 wine all on the same truck. Arguing that it’s OK for the cheap stuff presumes that cheap wines are segregated and delivered in different conditions, which isn’t correct. I do understand that a $5 Rosemount Shiraz, Mondavi Woodbridge etc might show very little damage if drunk right away (well, after it’s cooled…) and that most of those wines WILL be drunk right away so the actual issue might be negligible for those customers. Also, of course, if Michelle only has cheap wines on the Southern truck, the impact on the other wines doesn’t matter to her.
To Thomas’ point, that’s a risk. How much of a risk depends on where Michelle’s shop is and what else she has to offer the person who wants Rosemount Shiraz. The problem Michelle faces is that next year she’ll be open and have to deal with this all summer which means she’ll have to take deliveries in May, June, July, etc. Next year will actually be harder, because the people who want YT, Rosemount, etc will have become used to the fact that she carries it so she can’t really say “well, I decided not to carry it for 4 months…”
As I think about this, in Michelle’s place I’d place the order. If people are buying those wines elsewhere nearby then the bottles they’re getting are already in the same condition yours will be in probably. A larger question is what you want the shop to be and whether such wines will be 5% of revenue or 50%.
![[winner.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/07ec25c9fd71159fe15d7f1ba5fad64e91238d0e.gif "winner"){kind=small}