I’ve got to side with Yaacov on this one - the advantage of using a commercially-available starter is that these have proven to be stable for decades if not centuries. A healthy, stable starter should create an environment so competitive that other bugs can’t get a foothold, which is why they are stable enough to stand the test of time. The San Francisco sourdough culture has been shown to have unique, complementary metabolic paths between the yeast & lactobacilli where each produces a chemical that the other is uniquely suited to consume, which makes it really difficult for someone else to elbow in on the party. You might get something like this by starting from scratch, but the odds are against you, and I’d be you probably pick up whatever baker’s yeast you’ve been using over the years anyway.
That said, nice looking loaves. I hope you get to where you want to be with your starter.
Larry–I have no problem with inoculating the batch at the outset with a commercially-available starter. My issue with the last batch was that I used a book’s recommendation to use a pinch of standard,
commercial yeast to begin the process, so my first starter was dominated by standard commercial baking yeast (rather than something like a SF sourdough starter).
Now that I’m on Day 6 of the new starter (from scratch, no added yeast or starter), it’s going gangbusters. Photo attached from this morning.
I still have to work on perfecting the sourdough baking technique. Because the dough is so wet/loose, it doesn’t release from the proofing basket very quickly, and then as soon as it’s released it starts flattening again before I can get it in the oven.
Looks good, best of luck Bruce. Are you at about 50% hydration on your starter? I’ve gone back and forth on this one - it seems pizza people like 100% hydration starter, and classic bread is more around 50%. It’s very complicated what difference this makes, frankly above my head. I decided to compromise at 67% which is the same hydration I use for my pizza dough.
I don’t know if anybody has genetically profiled the yeast in a starter over a period of time, but I have seen a couple such studies done on native yeast fermentation of wine. In both cases, there were a number of organisms active for several days, but eventually s. Cerevisiae takes over and dominates the fermentation. I imagine a similar thing happens with a sourdough starter, unless you have something stable enough to keep control of the fermentation. What you’re doing is really cool and interesting, and I agree that starting with a pinch of baker’s yeast is just going to result in growing a bunch of that same yeast.
Larry–I think you’ve put your finger on one of my questions/issues–hydration. I started off creating a starter based on the recipe in one book, and then made the dough based on the Sam Sifton no-knead recipe. At the end of the process, I think I ended up with a dough for baking that probably was overly hydrated, which is why the dough wanted to flatten so quickly.
I’m now starting from scratch with the Ken Forkish FWSY book, and his levain (what most people would call a starter) is approx. 100% hydration each time you feed it the first 4 days. But he calls for using whole wheat flour (first 100% to start, and then in a blend as you feed). The whole wheat flour absorbs water much more so, and then the hydration at each feeding once established is essentially 80%. When I worked with the new starter today, I could feel that it was dryer than my original batch.
Then, each recipe has its own instruction for how much levain/starter to use, as well as water. Each recipe shows you the components of the levain/starter, what you add for the final dough, and the final %'s. So for the Field Blend #2 that I’m trying for the first time now, the total hydration between levain/starter and dough ends up at 78%. Again, though, that recipe calls for both whole wheat and whole rye, which absorb water differently than standard AP white flour. That’s just one more reason why hydration is such a complex concept. Anyway, I finished the mixing & folding before the overnight bulk ferment, and the dough feels much drier with more sticky structure than what I had been making.
Comparing the starter/levain I just finished creating, and the one I had been using, it’s pretty clear to me that the current one has more tang (more acetic acid?) and more character, and at least part of that may be due to “wild” yeast vs. baker’s yeast.
Bruce - I highly recommend reading the first Tartine book. There’s a decent amount of confusion here and reading the first 20 pages or so will save you a ton of time. The recipe isn’t as important as the technique and a good understanding of what’s happening and how to get the best results.
Yaacov–The Tartine book is next on my list to read.
I finished making my first loaf completely per the instructions and recipes in Ken Forkish’s book, FWSY, using the Field Blend #2 recipe. It baked up quite nicely, and released fairly quickly from the banneton, but I find I still have to reshape the loaf a bit after release from the banneton and just before putting it in the oven.
I’ve started reading through the Tartine book and talking to a friend who’s a professional baker. I’ve cut back on the hydration just a tad, and reduced the bulk ferment from 5 hours to 3 hours. The loaf released easily from the banneton and retained its shape well. Then on to a very good oven spring.
Here are photos; I need to brush off all the excess flour once the loaf cools down.
looking good. a great trick is to do the bulk ferment in the fridge overnight. this has a few advantages; it slows down the fermentation, which results in a super-hydrated flour and also intensifies the sour quality of the bread. it also firms up the dough so it’s easier to get into the pot when baking - i usually let it sit for maybe 30 minutes just so the chill is off, but it’s still pretty cold. you get a tiny bit of additional rise from this. it can stay in the fridge from 6-18 hours no problem, in my experience.
And esp. for Yaacov, here’s today’s test loaf using the Country Bread recipe and technique from the Tartine book. Easy release from the banneton, so didn’t need to use much flour in the banneton. 3 hour bulk ferment at room temp (could have gone 4), and then overnight proofing in the fridge.
There are some very interesting differences between the Tartine technique and the Forkish technique. Both have an autolyse upfront, but Tartine introduces the levain as well at the very beginning. All things being equal, I think the Tartine method gives a bit more flavor by introducing the levain at the very beginning.
But I do like the flour blend recipes in the Forkish book. So I may make more of those, but using the Tartine methodology.
i increase the whole wheat on the tartine recipe by up to 30% and just increase the autolyse to around an hour. the tartine book just does a great job of getting a deeper understanding of the technique and what you’re meant to do. i think most of the flavor will come from the flour you’re using with these recipes. i find that if you play around with a few different types, you get some interesting flavors going. that, and the long ferment, to me, are the keys. from the crumb pic, it looks like you may not be getting enough air going, which could be your stretch/fold technique - you want a more even and open crumb and less density. you barely want to handle these doughs.
One of my next test loaves will be the Forkish Field blend #2–AP, whole wheat, and rye–but made using the Tartine method. I really liked that blend when I baked it per the Forkish method.
Here’s today’s test Tartine loaf, with the Country Bread recipe. I experimented with a longer (4 hour) bulk ferment on a warmer day, and it got plenty of rise/poof in the baking. There are so many variables every time you bake one of these–the temp. of the kitchen, the conditions of the levain, the temp. of the ingredients, the length of time of the ferment, etc.–that it’s a bit of a science experiment each time. But that’s OK, I don’t “need” the process to produce identical loaves each time.
In any event, today’s loaf really achieved pretty much what I wanted when I tried this process again. The crust is very good and looks great, the loaf is getting plenty of rise (both in the ferment/banneton and in the oven), the interior is soft and infused with sourdough flavor (but not too sour), etc. Really, I’m pretty satisfied with where it’s at now.
