I hold nothing against Chuck or his kids for the types of wines that they make - and the successes that they have had. Obviously they are ‘having the last laugh’ here - with consumers digging what they are doing, regardless of the ‘style’ of wines that they are making.
Do they use Mega Purple and other things? Perhaps they do and perhaps they don’t. Mike claims to have some ‘insider info’ - probably similar to the ‘insider info’ that many winemakers have on what goes on at other facilities - either first hand knowledge or from ‘trusted others’.
Caymus is an easy target on this board - but my guess is that there are many who frequent this board who actually enjoy their wines. Yep, they are the ‘vocal majority’ who do not post much - either because they feel they have nothing ‘valuable’ to add (which is a bummer) or because of threads that truly intimidate them.
This is not a style that I prefer myself - I dig cabs that have acid, a touch of green, and not much noticeable oak - but I will not slam those who do enjoy it.
Guess what, though - tastes change, and my guess is that there are some on this board who would have LOVED these wines a few years back . . . something to think about.
Berry et al are certainly correct - many are criticized for making products that appeal to the masses to other industries, including music, movies and TV.
But here’s the thing - just because something is ‘popular’ does not inherently make it ‘bad’. It seems that many in our society immediately ‘dislike’ something because so many others like it . . . I’m not saying that’s the case here, but do you think if some on this board liked these wines, they would post about them? Heck no - they would be too intimidated to do so . . . .
If you think about it, the Microsoft products were universally panned by sophisticated IT people, but their approach to the market overwhelmed Apple.
There are lots of parallels here.
Funny to think that Caymus wines used to be criticized for being too tannic.
On the whole people here don’t pick on Apothic Red or Rombauer Cougar Crack, and i think it is because nobody has a memory of Rombauer Chardonnay rivaling the best of Burgundy, even if Bob Levy was their first winemaker. But people have been buying and ageing Caymus cabernet since the early '70s and have memories of Chuck and his late father. So when Caymus changes we are annoyed.
Im not sure that is the best analogy. Microsoft’s success stems from two things 1) IBM anointing them the standard operating system for the majority of the world’s computers 2) ruthless business practices.
Microsoft has never innovated. They just have the financial power due to their virtual monopoly to play catchup multiple times.
The wine consumer has spoken. Caymus shipped 1,464,000 bottles of their flagship 2012 cab that retailed for $60 and now a year later it will cost you double that at auction. Not too many brands that can match that. Yes they are laughing, all the way to the bank.
I would say 99.9% of all winery owners make wine to make money and/or a living so hats off to the Wagners. They seem to be printing money.
The Apple/MS comparison is not perfect but I think everyone felt that Apple’s initial products were better than anything MS made in the beginning. MS products were mocked.
Critics might say that the old Caymus wines aged better than the ones being made now will.
Chuck Wagner might say that wine was made to be drunk, not aged.
This is extraordinarily rigid epistemology. To state with certainty that something is true, you should have a factual basis that is determinative, to be sure. But you might have only enough of a basis to be pretty sure. In the case of second and third-hand information (what you are calling rumors), I would always exercise some and sometimes a lot of skepticism. But the source of the second and third-hand information does matter (is it someone you know to have worked at Caymus? another nearby winemaker who, mirabile dictu, doesn’t have his or her own ax to grind?). Moreover, if you have tasted the wine and it has the taste features one would expect from using Mega Purple and lots of new oak (taste features that are not always absolutely unmistakable, but are really somewhat marked), then even very loose rumor might function as some level of confirmation. Very short of determinative but very much more than useless.
There’s a LOT of money in selling out to the masses. Critical acclaim doesn’t put a Ferrari in your garage. Besides, I say screw the critics! The day they start subsidizing my hobby/habit is the day I’ll drink what they say I should drink.
Those that like blueblueblue hedonistic rockstar wines will buy them. When I’m in the mood for that, I open a bottle of Shafer. Those that want AFWE wines will buy them. I’ll pull a Ponsot or Drouhin from the 80’s or 90’s when I’m looking for that profile. If I feel I want to be in the middle, an old school Arrowood or Ambroise does the trick.
Jay, have you had an '01 or '04 Special Selection?
About when do grapes reach their maximum weight? He talks about waiting until they come down off that by about 25%.
He comes across somewhat indifferent to the fact that people have different tastes and might appreciate freshness or the sweet/ sour trade-off. To each his own.
When is any fruit ‘ripe’? He has developed a process that works for him - just as others have developed their own. If you ask an AFWE winery about this, they would probably rather say that they pick based on flavors, with the caveat that the sugars can’t be over X. Other winemakers would say that they pick on numbers. And others would use a combination.
He certainly does come across as indifferent to those who don’t share his idea of an ‘ideal cab’ but so be it - he knows his market and is successfully selling to them, regardless of what those who don’t agree with his flavor profiling may think. And I truly and honestly think he feels that he is making the ‘best’ wines that he can - given those flavors he is after. To me, this is no different than ANY winemaker trying to achieve something specific - it just is ‘different’ than many on this board seem to be after . . .
Larry - I don’t mean to infer that weight equals ripeness (necessarily), this is an honest question about whether or not there is a specific point in the growing season that the fruit reaches its heaviest. I can’t say I’ve ever heard the process described from that perspective. For all I know it is SOP.
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Critical acclaim doesn’t put a Ferrari in your garage. Besides, I say screw the critics! The day they start subsidizing my hobby/habit is the day I’ll drink what they say I should drink.