Judging Potential With Barolo?

[Gary_York]

You guys are going way overboard with all this no one knows anything and it just guessing stuff. It is true that no one know down to the exact hour when a wine will be at it’s peak. But people(winemakers, importers/dist, winebuyers, critics etc.)that have lots of experience with a group of wines or a particular producer or vineyard will be able to more correctly discuss the potential of these wines. If a winemaker says “he doesn’t know” most of the time what he is really saying is “he doesn’t want to talk about it”. I have had many conversations with producers about their wines and their potential. But it can be difficult because they really don’t know you.

[Cary_Rosner]

My 2 cents. I look for early tasting notes from reviewers I respect in a great vintage of Barolo and I file them away without purchasing the 1st wave. I then look to make my purchases about 8/10 years from Vintage as more people file tasting notes and open bottles early. I buy from reputable sellers and friends that realize they bought too much at release. I find this method works very well for me and if I have to pay a few bucks more, that’s fine as I don’t allocate dollars for purchase that I won’t be drinking for 10/20 years from vintage.

[Anthony_Lombardi]

@Michael S. Monie

@Anthony Lombardi

Serious question. Are these troll posts?

I have a serious question for you also: why do you ask? If you have something substantive to contribute, why not just do so. If you don’t why do you care?

Every word of my original post is true. Sometimes it would be wise to remind ourselves of this little encapsulated world we move in, and that the vast majority of those interested in wine don’t participate in. If I wanted to participate in Nebbiolo tastings where I live, I would have to host them, with my wine. Not that I wouldn’t be receptive to doing so, but obviously the scope could only go so far.

And if I can raise Master Boykin’s and Mr. Bill’s blood pressure a point or two, well, that’s just foam on the cappuccino.

I guess I “care” in that I notice you start a lot of these threads & rarely offer your own insights. You have certainly gathered a wealth of members’ Nebbiolo knowledge in single threads, so if your aim was starting dialogue, then my mistake/misinterpretation.

It reads an awful lot to me that these threads provide fodder for a seemingly circular point on Modern wine criticism that as a reader, I wish you would just make. It would be nice to read your thoughts on drinking these wines to accompany the other comments you make.

Raising the blood pressure of two valuable board members kinda defines trolling doesn’t it?

If I’m not being substantive, I’ll show myself out of the thread. If I’m reading your intent the wrong way. I sincerely apologize.

[Bill_Klapp_deactivated]

@Michael S. Monie

If I wanted to participate in Nebbiolo tastings where I live, I would have to host them, with my wine. Not that I wouldn’t be receptive to doing so, but obviously the scope could only go so far.

And if I can raise Master Boykin’s and Mr. Bill’s blood pressure a point or two, well, that’s just foam on the cappuccino.

Or foaming at the mouth, perhaps. I am a retired lawyer. I have no blood pressure, as I have no heart to pump blood. I think that it would be cool for you to host the tastings and only invite yourself. That way, you would have the only company that you enjoy, and one of the only two opinions that matter to you, with nobody to correct you when you are wrong. Nirvana! Or maybe you could move. Or maybe you are just plain f**ked. In any event, not my problem, mon…

[Bill_Boykin]

He’s a troller and looking for some petty jousting,not educative discourse…but he’s just a fool,and only youth and little wit can excuse him…

[Bill_Boykin]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

@g.colangelo

A couple of years ago, when I visited Giuseppe Rinaldi and tasted the Brunate 2010 from barrel, I was impressed by how expressive and fruity it was. A beautiful young wine, but with none of the typical aromatics of aged Nebbiolo which make it so unique. I loved what I tasted and said so, but also admitted right away that given my lack of experience, I wasn’t able to judge in the least, how the wine was going to evolve and how promising it was. So I asked Giuseppe Rinaldi for help and what his opinion was about how the wine was going to develop.
His answer was: “I don’t know”.
Of all the visits I made and chats I had with winemakers, this is one of the statements that stuck most strongly with me.

Gilberto…I have had dozens of such conversations…early on in my “career” tasting wines and visiting estates. I stopped asking long ago, though…I got a more varied set of responses: two categories: “I don’t know”…and those who offered all kinds of opinions, but really had no clue, but were interested.

Most winemakers, IMO, are in no position to have any better sense than anyone else. Most are not that intertested in the evolution and have had little experience with those issues. This shocked me. Just as much what shocked me were those who were not even interested in the subject. And…I still have vivid memories of such conversations.

After a while, I realized their limitations and accepted them…and they made sense, too…but…early on it was pretty shocking.

So…I developed my own criteria: focus on the finish of the wines I tasted…no matter when in their evolution…to figure out my own opinions…for whatever they were worth…and to focus on my own experiences only…not other “tasters’”. With that, I also decided to focus on a group of specific producers I could follow in vintage after vintage…hopefully the same wines from them…to at least try to understand “potential” in some context. I did that and am glad I did. But…even that “method” only gets one so far to “judging potential”. There are so many things that can go wrong down the line…including…aeration of a bottle, the setting, the care…and one’s own ability to concentrate…that…it is basically guessing.

Well said!

[Tom_Maskell]

Bill,

I start to worry when I find myself agreeing with you.

"Not a lot of quality Nebbiolo drinks well young for most palates, and even for the short time that some do, one is spending a lot of money to drink something that may be giving you 10-25% of what you paid for. I will lay it on the line…if you do not like old Nebbiolo, you do not really like Nebbiolo, and probably would be better served putting those considerable wine dollars/Euros/whatever into other wines. What I say is not true of, say, most California wines, but it is true of most quality Bordeaux and Burgundy. Otherwise, wine reviewers and experienced drinkers on wine boards would not be telling you not to drink the wines for 5, 10, 15 years, would they? People are free to do what they want with their wines, of course, but at least one goal of a wine board should be to try and keep the inexperienced from doing stupid things, by sharing experience and information with them (an often thankless job!).

[John_Morris]

@Tom Maskell

I start to worry when I find myself agreeing with you.

It’s been a strange thread, Tom. I found myself agreeing with Stuart earlier.

[Bill_Boykin]

@John Morris

@Tom Maskell

I start to worry when I find myself agreeing with you.

It’s been a strange thread, Tom. I found myself agreeing with Stuart earlier.

…and I’m agreeing with you now,John.

[g.colangelo]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

Gilberto…I have had dozens of such conversations…early on in my “career” tasting wines and visiting estates. I stopped asking long ago, though…I got a more varied set of responses: two categories: “I don’t know”…and those who offered all kinds of opinions, but really had no clue, but were interested.

Most winemakers, IMO, are in no position to have any better sense than anyone else. Most are not that intertested in the evolution and have had little experience with those issues. This shocked me. Just as much what shocked me were those who were not even interested in the subject. And…I still have vivid memories of such conversations.

After a while, I realized their limitations and accepted them…and they made sense, too…but…early on it was pretty shocking.

So…I developed my own criteria: focus on the finish of the wines I tasted…no matter when in their evolution…to figure out my own opinions…for whatever they were worth…and to focus on my own experiences only…not other “tasters’”. With that, I also decided to focus on a group of specific producers I could follow in vintage after vintage…hopefully the same wines from them…to at least try to understand “potential” in some context. I did that and am glad I did. But…even that “method” only gets one so far to “judging potential”. There are so many things that can go wrong down the line…including…aeration of a bottle, the setting, the care…and one’s own ability to concentrate…that…it is basically guessing.

Stuart, I agree with most of what you are saying, but I think that winemakers are in better position than many other people. Of course their point of view is different.
In his interview with Levi Dalton, Jeremy Seysses makes a comment in this direction: he says they have to smile sometimes when they read comments by critics who make prediction about their wines based on one or two tastings. Those who made the wines taste them a lot more often and understand much better how much a wine changes and how difficult it is to make reliable predictions. At least this is my interpretation of what he says.

@Gary York

You guys are going way overboard with all this no one knows anything and it just guessing stuff. It is true that no one know down to the exact hour when a wine will be at it’s peak. But people(winemakers, importers/dist, winebuyers, critics etc.)that have lots of experience with a group of wines or a particular producer or vineyard will be able to more correctly discuss the potential of these wines. If a winemaker says “he doesn’t know” most of the time what he is really saying is “he doesn’t want to talk about it”. I have had many conversations with producers about their wines and their potential. But it can be difficult because they really don’t know you.

Sure, Gary, one can interpret that “I don’t know” in many ways. Including: “I think I know, but don’t want to talk about it with you now”. I definitely did not interpret it as “nobody knows anything”.
In fact I believe he had a pretty good idea of how the wine was. Like whoever works with wine (importers, winebuyers, etc.) one has to develop his/her own method to assess the quality of a wine also with respect to its future evolution. The point is: he was in a position to tell me his evaluation and I would have taken it for good. He preferred to give the message: there is no easy, clear cut answer. I like that.

[Michael_S_Monie]

@Anthony Lombardi

@Michael S. Monie

@Anthony Lombardi

Serious question. Are these troll posts?

I have a serious question for you also: why do you ask? If you have something substantive to contribute, why not just do so. If you don’t why do you care?

Every word of my original post is true. Sometimes it would be wise to remind ourselves of this little encapsulated world we move in, and that the vast majority of those interested in wine don’t participate in. If I wanted to participate in Nebbiolo tastings where I live, I would have to host them, with my wine. Not that I wouldn’t be receptive to doing so, but obviously the scope could only go so far.

And if I can raise Master Boykin’s and Mr. Bill’s blood pressure a point or two, well, that’s just foam on the cappuccino.

I guess I “care” in that I notice you start a lot of these threads & rarely offer your own insights. You have certainly gathered a wealth of members’ Nebbiolo knowledge in single threads, so if your aim was starting dialogue, then my mistake/misinterpretation.

I frame many if not most of my posts in the form of questions. I sometimes have what I consider a valid opinion on the question being asked, and sometimes not. The only answer so far provided in this thread, is that there is no answer. If my sole purpose was to impose my own point of view, a blog would be a more appropriate format.


It reads an awful lot to me that these threads provide fodder for a seemingly circular point on Modern wine criticism that as a reader, I wish you would just make. It would be nice to read your thoughts on drinking these wines to accompany the other comments you make.

I have made it: professional wine criticism can be a valuable tool that vastly expands possibilities for many wine consumers. I drink wines from all over the world. When I’ve posted tasting notes in the past, there seemed to be only casual interest. When my bona fides were recently challenged regarding Barolo’s new paradigm, I pointed out that the person who originated the theory has a lot of experience with Nebbiolo.


Raising the blood pressure of two valuable board members kinda defines trolling doesn’t it?

I respect Klapp’s knowledge even if it is only relevant to a tiny percentage of the Nebbiolo drinking public. Idealism can narrow one’s perception significantly.
Boikin on the other hand is like the crotchety uncle you try to sit at the opposite end of the table from at holiday meals.


If I’m not being substantive, I’ll show myself out of the thread. If I’m reading your intent the wrong way. I sincerely apologize.

My intent in this thread was to: 1. acknowledge personal limitations when discerning the potential of Barolo. 2. Suggest that those who do it it for a living may in fact be providing a valuable service for those incapable of doing it for themself. 3. To find out if there is a number 3.

All of the rest is white noise.

[Bill_Klapp_deactivated]

@Tom Maskell

Bill,

I start to worry when I find myself agreeing with you.

"Not a lot of quality Nebbiolo drinks well young for most palates, and even for the short time that some do, one is spending a lot of money to drink something that may be giving you 10-25% of what you paid for. I will lay it on the line…if you do not like old Nebbiolo, you do not really like Nebbiolo, and probably would be better served putting those considerable wine dollars/Euros/whatever into other wines. What I say is not true of, say, most California wines, but it is true of most quality Bordeaux and Burgundy. Otherwise, wine reviewers and experienced drinkers on wine boards would not be telling you not to drink the wines for 5, 10, 15 years, would they? People are free to do what they want with their wines, of course, but at least one goal of a wine board should be to try and keep the inexperienced from doing stupid things, by sharing experience and information with them (an often thankless job!).

Tom, I cannot for the life of me imagine why. I mean, I am RIGHT, for God’s sake. You are yourself no stranger to being right. (Well, except about 1988 Baroli, but even that does not matter, because I think that you bought and drank all that were ever produced.) I would have thought that you would be comfortable with it by now!

[Tvrtko_C]

@g.colangelo

The point is: he was in a position to tell me his evaluation and I would have taken it for good. He preferred to give the message: there is no easy, clear cut answer. I like that.

This.

[Gary_York]

An interesting read on young vs old wines. And some comments by Galloni. Not sure how much I agree with any of this, still interesting to read. One thing that I was thinking was that we want it all. A wine that tastes great in the first few years after it is bottled. And gets better in it’s middle age. And finally becomes devastatingly good in old age. Not asking for too much are we. I am not sure that the world works like that. Anyway just some thoughts.

No Country for Old Wines - The Paradox of Young vs. Old

[Chae_Yi]

that’s what the scores are for!!!

[Gary_York]

True. Now I just need to know on what date the wine will be at that score.

[Bill_Klapp_deactivated]

Alfonso does love a beautiful turn of phrase, and pens many, but penetrating analysis of the great Italian wine issues of our day is not his thing. I was, however, happy to see that, in the middle of a sea of factually unsupportable blather, Galloni finally stumbled upon climate change as a factor. To talk about clearly inferior wines made in an oxidative style 30-40 years ago is one thing; to claim that today’s wines are better is simply horseshit. (If I offer you a free bottle of either 1974 Heitz Martha’s or 1997 Harlan, which are you going to take? 1961 La Chapelle or a 2009 La-La?) When one of Roberto Conterno’s Monfortinos eclipses his father’s 1978 in quality…ECLIPSES…then and only then am I going to embrace the reviewer mantra that green harvests, cleaner cellars, changes in destemming, blah, blah, blah, are making better wines. That figures to be true only at wineries that did not know how to make great wine to begin with.

The embarassing thing about Galloni is that he has some experience with the great old Nebbioli and should know better than to make some of the foolish soundbite claims that he makes. If the article quoted him correctly, Galloni is now telling us that there is no such thing as traditional winemaking any more. WTF? Given the diversity of winemaking styles and techniques in the Piemonte, that thought would have to crawl up a steep hill to reach empty overgeneralization status. That is mouth engaged before brain finished processing the facts, and Galloni is no deep thinker to begin with. He is suffering from Parker-son’s (well, maybe “disinherited son” at this point) disease, glibly saying whatever sounds good today without paying the slightest attention to what one has said in the past. The 1989 Giacosa Collina Rionda red label is the greatest Giacosa wine ever made (says a fellow who has apparently never tasted the 1971 Giacosa Santo Stefano Riserva Speciale and is not focused enough to remember that Giacosa has a veritable stable of 1978 red labels poised to bite the 1989 Rionda on the ass when fully mature), but Giacosa’s 2008 red labels are crap. Oh, wait, the 2008s are so smooth and ready to drink now that I declare a new paradigm! Wait, wait, do I have a third side of my mouth to speak from?

Galloni is not alone in this. Parker and Suckling make up just as much silly crap and spout it authoritatively. However, if reviewers are going to continue robo-tasting and spraying scores and tasting notes without pause and reflection about the warp and woof and larger and smaller issues of fine wine, then they should at least have the grace not to get pissed when they are called out for it…

[Michael_S_Monie]

He’s not saying that there isn’t traditional winemaking any longer. He’s saying that they no longer make wine “just like pappa used to”, and thank God for that.

[Gary_York]

I knew you would love the climate change comment.

[Bill_Klapp_deactivated]

@Michael S. Monie

He’s not saying that there isn’t traditional winemaking any longer. He’s saying that they no longer make wine “just like pappa used to”, and thank God for that.

No, you foolish man, not thank God for that. You are speaking out of your derriere (yet again), with insufficient experience with old Nebbiolo to draw such conclusions. ANY conclusions, perhaps. “Clueless” seems to be an unattainable goal for you! Please aspire to “clueless”, though…it will be a much-appreciated improvement, should you achieve it.

You want 100 examples of 30-40-year-old Nebbiolo that have stood the test of time, the likes of which have not yet been seen this century? 200? (At least as far as we can tell from this century’s host of immature wines, reviewer opinions regarding which have no more validity than yours or mine.)